Dennis Priebe - The Judgment - (powerful refutation against critics)

[ClubV12]

As I continue to grow in an understanding of righteousness by faith I am no longer surprised that the "1888 Comittee" could not come to a firm conclusion on the matter.

Personally, I believe the proper understanding of faith and works can only come from a spiritual understanding, an awakening if you would. On this issue "spirtual things are spiritually understood" is the most significant example I can think of.

As for myself, I have absolutely no doubt it is ONLY through the merits of Christ and His great love and acceptance that will allow for our salvation. I believe Daniel 12:7 speaks dircetly to this in the last days, the time of the end.

"When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

I realize many different people see different things in this verse and interpretation varies. To ME, it speaks of MY power being broken. MY power to overcome sin, known sin, unknown sin, every last character default. In the end, in those trying times like the earth has never experienced before, with God's people facing death at every turn, they will realize there only hope is Christs righteousness. THEN, will the end come.

Is it possible to understand this concept WITHOUT great trial and tribulation? Without severe persecution? Of course, but I don't it is likely that most or even a few will fully grasp their condition without it.

[skyblue888]

As I continue to grow in an understanding of righteousness by faith I am no longer surprised that the "1888 Comittee" could not come to a firm conclusion on the matter.

Personally, I believe the proper understanding of faith and works can only come from a spiritual understanding, an awakening if you would. On this issue "spirtual things are spiritually understood" is the most significant example I can think of.

As for myself, I have absolutely no doubt it is ONLY through the merits of Christ and His great love and acceptance that will allow for our salvation. I believe Daniel 12:7 speaks dircetly to this in the last days, the time of the end.

"When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

I realize many different people see different things in this verse and interpretation varies. To ME, it speaks of MY power being broken. MY power to overcome sin, known sin, unknown sin, every last character default. In the end, in those trying times like the earth has never experienced before, with God's people facing death at every turn, they will realize there only hope is Christs righteousness. THEN, will the end come.

Is it possible to understand this concept WITHOUT great trial and tribulation? Without severe persecution? Of course, but I don't it is likely that most or even a few will fully grasp their condition without it.

Interesting, this is my understanding of Dan.12:7 as well! It is the first time I meet someone who understands this passage that way. When the people of God shall come with repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of their own finite weakness, daily applying to the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour as their only plea, then they will be ready for Christ's righteousness, then they will be ready for divinity and humanity to be combined and the work will be a complete success.

sky

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The power in us to overcome is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". That cannot be overcome by any anywhere as our God and Saviour is Greater than all.

The power of the "Holy People", notice they are still designated Holy, is not because they are overcome Spiritually but are about to be slaughtered by the evil ones. They will not be the majority as Jesus Christ revealed it would be "few".

The time is shortened for the elect's sake or Satan and his would destroy them all. I am sure many will be Martyrs and will stand for the right and truth though the sky falls.

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

He died for us, we should also stand for Him and His Truth to the death, so Martyrs there will be for sure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I have known about him for years. <snip>

I was of the understanding that Priebe was once part of the 1888 committee, and that he still holds to the 1888 message. Am I correct?

We also have to remember that he was speaking to students, how of course, are a little more green behind the ears. And he had to pack a lot of information in one hour.

Like I said I have known him to do this every time he gives a presentation on righteousness by faith. Of course he holds on to the theory of it claiming to be teaching the 1888 message. Read his books again and the publications of the 1888 Committee and you will see that there is no emphasis whatsoever on the necessity of appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves which Mrs. White says is the only way to attain to righteousness. See Faith & Works,101 and P.P.430, last parg.

I have been aware of the 1888 Committee ever since I took theology in 1978 and I have been aware of Dennis Priebe's teachings for many years and it is always the same story. No emphasis on the merits of Christ. It is a subject that is completely left out of their presentations or books or videos.

Mrs. White stated that the message was just as simple as ABC, that unless we made it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim we cannot be saved and therefore will fail to pass the scrutiny of the IJ. See T.M.93,97.

sky

[skyblue888]

I realize many different people see different things in this verse and interpretation varies. To ME, it speaks of MY power being broken. MY power to overcome sin, known sin, unknown sin, every last character default. In the end, in those trying times like the earth has never experienced before, with God's people facing death at every turn, they will realize there only hope is Christs righteousness. THEN, will the end come.

club

________

Mrs. White does say that they will realize that their only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Why? because it is the only way they can attain to righteousness.

Speaking of those who are to go through the time of Jacob's trouble we read:

"As dangers surround them, and despair seizes upon the soul, they must depend solely upon the merits of the atonement. We can do nothing of ourselves. In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this."

Again in the book The Great Controversy, p.471 we read:

"Those who live nearest to Jesus (especially those who go through the time of Jacob's trouble) discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour."

The merits and righteousness of Christ are not one and the same thing. Mrs. White plainly says that in order to receive His righteousness one must bring to God the merits of Christ.

"The only way to attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he--the sinner-can bring to God the merits of Christ." Faith & Works,101.

That would explain why she speaks of "the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into the life." Faith & Works,65,66.

So from now on to the coming of Christ our only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, by daily applying to them, by daily appropriating them to ourselves, by claiming them, that we may be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness and thus become vessels fit for the Master's use.

sky

[ClubV12]

Well it is interesting that Sky see's Daniel 12:7 in the same light, as righteousness by faith.

I've presented this idea to several folks in the church and they are either non-commital on it or have a different view altogether. In short, I have not been able to gain any traction on this concept at all and was beginning to think I was entirely wrong on this verse. Thanks for your insight Sky.

Not that I would make a big issue of it anywhere, as some folks are quite adamant about their interpretation of Daniel 12:7, or other verses and see no light what so ever in my interpretation.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White's "Godly inspiration" was like the Prophets of the Bible very limited in scope and very limited in quantity."

Here is the problem. Ellen White has written MORE than what is in the Bible. Her quantity far exceeds scripture. So, when people point to the perception that we have replaced scripture. Here is one reason why - the sheer quantity.

[ClubV12]

Good point Woody. I am reminded of one bibilcal authors observation that if everything Christ had done or said was written down it would take many volumes and books to record it all.

Well, Ellen White gave it a shot.... As this is a subject we will be studying for eternity even her work is like the tip of an ice berg. :)

[Guest]

As this is a subject we will be studying for eternity even her work is like the tip of an ice berg.

It's true.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: John317

Excellent link. Priebe has it right.

Thanks so much for posting this.

So you believe that Ellen White is over the Bible in regard to Truth.

I have noticed that, that is the true case by reading your many posts.

It is a shame that the Bible is only a "secondary source" in the SDA Church .org.

Sola Scriptura (Bible only)

“The Bible and the Bible only” was the fundamental premise of the Protestant reformers, whether Luther in Germany, Zwingli and Calvin in Switzerland, or Farel in France. In other words, for the Reformers the Bible replaced human authorities. But this heroic insistence on the “Bible only” as the Christian’s rule of faith and practice calls for three observations:

(1) the Reformers had difficulty accepting the entire Bible,

(2) they did not understand fully the continuance of spiritual gifts that the Bible expressly teaches, and

(3) they differed widely as to what the Bible meant. Clearly, the slogan was not sufficient in itself.

The first observation is supported by the fact that Luther had great difficulty with the books of James, Hebrews, and Revelation. Calvin virtually discarded the book of Revelation. Other Reformers rejected the Old Testament. In fact, later Reformers who tried to get the main Reformers like Luther to see the completeness of the entire Bible were themselves treated like heretics. 1

The second and third observations, for our purposes, relate particularly to Ellen White. What was her understanding of that vital Protestant principle, “The Bible and the Bible only”? 2 She used the phrase often and with precision. She used it as the Reformers used it—as authority; that is, the Bible stood above and alone in contrast with papal dogmas, councils, and the writings of church fathers. For her, as with the Reformers, salvation truth is found in the Bible, not in papal decrees or the votes of church councils.

She wrote: “The grand principle maintained by these Reformers . . . was the infallible authority of the Holy Scriptures as a rule of faith and practice. They denied the right of popes, councils, Fathers, and kings, to control the conscience in matters of religion.” 3

She also used this “vital principle” in sharp contrast to the Zwickau enthusiasts in Luther’s time who permitted themselves to be guided primarily by their feelings—which they assumed were the leading of the Holy Spirit.

She wrote: “They rejected the great principle which was the very foundation of the Reformation—that the Word of God is the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice; and for that unerring guide they substituted the changeable, uncertain standard of their own feelings and impressions. By this act of setting aside the great detector of error and falsehood, the way was opened for Satan to control minds as best pleased himself.” 4

For Ellen White the Bible was always the test of truth. No other standard was either necessary or legitimate: “I recommend to you, dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice. By that Word we are to be judged.” 5 In 1909, at her last public appearance in a General Conference session, after finishing her sermon she left the podium for her seat. But she returned, and, holding up the Bible she had been preaching from, opened it and held it out with hands trembling with age, saying, “Brethren and Sisters, I commend unto you this Book.” 6

She contrasted the phrase, “the Bible and the Bible only,” with human views and any other way of expressing “unbiblical positions of religious traditions, experience, ecclesiastical position and human reason.” 7

Biblical prophets always pointed to the previously accepted Scriptures as the test of faith and practice. Long before the Old Testament was even envisioned, men such as King Josiah (2 Kings 22), Ezra and Nehemiah (Neh. 8), and Daniel (Dan. 9) referred to previous prophets as bearers of God’s Word. It never even entered the minds of many of these prophets that their writings would eventually be classed with the writings of Moses. When Paul proclaimed the gospel, the Bible that he used as authority was the Old Testament. He had no idea that his letters would constitute a major part of what would be called the New Testament.

Each Bible writer was later judged to be authoritative because his writings met the test of Isaiah 8:20—“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Further, those who read these writings discovered the voice of God speaking to their souls. Truly, one of the primary tests of a prophet is his or her harmony with previous inspired messages. 8

Thus sola scriptura means that all claims to divine authority must meet the standard of previously accepted prophetic messages. Appeals to personal feeling or to dramatic experiences, on one hand, 9 or appeals to human authorities such as church councils or respected theologians, on the other, are not, in themselves, evidence that God has spoken.

The slogan, “The Bible and the Bible only!” means that every later prophet would have his or her messages judged by their faithfulness to earlier messages. Further, this phrase means that all that the Bible has taught is to be honored, including its declaration that the “gift of prophecy” would continue to the end of time. Thus, sola scriptura does not mean that God does not intend to add information to men and women through the “gift of prophecy”—for that would be a non sequitur; it would deny a Biblical principle. 10

Early Adventists knew that accepting Ellen White as a messenger of God would lead to misunderstandings with other Christian groups. Early in his wife’s ministry James White made it clear that the Christian “should pray fervently to be aided by the Holy Spirit in searching the Scriptures for the whole truth, and for his whole duty. He is not at liberty to turn from them to learn his duty through any of the gifts. We say that the very moment he does, he places the gifts in a wrong place, and takes an extremely dangerous position. The Word should be in front, and the eye of the church should be placed upon it, as the rule to walk by, and the fountain of wisdom.” 11

Early Adventists also knew that other Christians would claim that the ministry of Ellen White violated the Protestant principle of “the Bible and the Bible only.” But Adventists responded “that it was because of their confidence in the Scriptures that they accepted Ellen White’s ministry as vital to them.” 12

(taken from Basic Principles of Understanding Ellen G. White’s Writings

By Herbert E. Douglass)

[Overaged]

NOT ONE SINGLE QUOTE FROM SCRIPTURE (THE BIBLE)!

I thought this was quite good. I enjoyed the video. There was a good account of Church History which Dennis did a good job of presenting, and any of the spirit of prophecy quotes which he did use, were always pointing us to the Bible.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

Excellent link. Priebe has it right.

Thanks so much for posting this.

So you believe that Ellen White is over the Bible in regard to Truth.

I have noticed that, that is the true case by reading your many posts.

It is a shame that the Bible is only a "secondary source" in the SDA Church .org.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

NOT ONE SINGLE QUOTE FROM SCRIPTURE (THE BIBLE)!

I thought this was quite good. I enjoyed the video. There was a good account of Church History which Dennis did a good job of presenting, and any of the spirit of prophecy quotes which he did use, were always pointing us to the Bible.

If he was "pointing" to the Bible, why not use the higher/more authoritative source to make your point.

Using a "lesser" source even though it points to a "higher source" does nothing but make your presentation weak.

You should always, but always, use the "higher source" and never ever settle for the weaker/lesser source.

Your argument here my friend is thus weak and actually points out that Dennis Priebe and his presentation are also extremely weak and filled with big holes.

I am afraid there is no defense for Dennis Priebe and the FACT that he did not use "one single Bible reference".

This is startling/overwhelming evidence that the SDA and the SDA Church .org are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY PEOPLE.

To "allude/point" to the Bible through Ellen White in actual FACT places Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

[Overaged]

If he was "pointing" to the Bible, why not use the higher/more authoritative source to make your point.

Using a "lesser" source even though it points to a "higher source" does nothing but make your presentation weak.

You should always, but always, use the "higher source" and never ever settle for the weaker/lesser source.

Your argument here my friend is thus weak and actually points out that Dennis Priebe and his presentation are also extremely weak and filled with big holes.

I am afraid there is no defense for Dennis Priebe and the FACT that he did not use "one single Bible reference".

This is startling/overwhelming evidence that the SDA and the SDA Church .org are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY PEOPLE.

To "allude/point" to the Bible through Ellen White in actual FACT places Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

OK; well you are not Bible either, so unless you produce even half a Bible verse that preaches against the spirit of prophecy; then Seventh-day Adventists will continue to lift this Bible truth up to the world. You have not used the Bible once to show us the error of our ways. Practice what you preach.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If he was "pointing" to the Bible, why not use the higher/more authoritative source to make your point.

Using a "lesser" source even though it points to a "higher source" does nothing but make your presentation weak.

You should always, but always, use the "higher source" and never ever settle for the weaker/lesser source.

Your argument here my friend is thus weak and actually points out that Dennis Priebe and his presentation are also extremely weak and filled with big holes.

I am afraid there is no defense for Dennis Priebe and the FACT that he did not use "one single Bible reference".

This is startling/overwhelming evidence that the SDA and the SDA Church .org are NOT A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY PEOPLE.

To "allude/point" to the Bible through Ellen White in actual FACT places Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

OK; well you are not Bible either, so unless you produce even half a Bible verse that preaches against the spirit of prophecy; then Seventh-day Adventists will continue to lift this Bible truth up to the world. You have not used the Bible once to show us the error of our ways. Practice what you preach.

Well you must be blind.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

2Timothy 3:16.

Ellen White is NOT PART OF SCRIPTURE.

[Gail]

Thank you Gail.

I don't know about the Rabbinical stuff. But I do agree that a complete study in the Bible of the Sanctuary both in the Old Testament and the New Testament would be greatly beneficial.

It is not that I have NOT DONE much study on this already but I have never done a comprehensive, systematic study from the Bible and the Bible only and then put that study down on paper.

May the Holy Spirit lead you! I hope you do take this on!

[Overaged]

So what you are telling us is that you dont actually have any scripture to disprove the spirit of prophecy. Miz3 is not scripture either.

[miz3]

So what you are telling us is that you dont actually have any scripture to disprove the spirit of prophecy. Miz3 is not scripture either.

Is there a Scripture that says Ellen White is the Spirit of Prophecy?

That is the question that is relevant.

You don't have a Scripture to disprove that Woody, miz3 are both not the SOP. If you have such a Scripture then show us the Scripture that says Woody and miz3 are NOT the SOP.

[doug yowell]

1. You say that "historically SDA taught that EGW's writings are about the Bible and not an addition to the Bible.

Again my response is that is what SDA "SAY" but that is not what they "DO/PRACTICE".

Historically, SDA's have practiced what they preached.It is still the exception (yes, Priebe may be one of those exceptions)to appeal to EGW first and foremost and even then she is never imposed on non-SDA's as an authority source.If the members of the church accept her prophetic gift then how is it possible for them to ignore her input on the basis of the Bible alone? Are practical principles of living,organization,health,eschatology,theology,ect... outside the pervue of a prophet's influence?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

So what you are telling us is that you dont actually have any scripture to disprove the spirit of prophecy. Miz3 is not scripture either.

Is there a Scripture that says Ellen White is the Spirit of Prophecy?

That is the question that is relevant.

You don't have a Scripture to disprove that Woody, miz3 are both not the SOP. If you have such a Scripture then show us the Scripture that says Woody and miz3 are NOT the SOP.

Now that you have reduced your replies to just parroting back whatever you hear; we can see that you do not have any scripture to prove that the spirit of prophecy is something that we should ignore. This is the key question since you are the one who went into attack mode against the church's well-established and Biblical belief regarding the spirit of prophecy.

No one has made the claim that "Ellen White is the spirit of prophecy;" so you raise a beautiful red herring here.

[doug yowell]

2. Ellen White's "Godly inspiration" was like the Prophets of the Bible very limited in scope and very limited in quantity.

Isn't this exactly the opposite of what you've been arguing when you explain the prophetic "authority" of Huldah,and Deborah,(and Ellen White)? Wasn't the crux of your argument that all Israel, including the king and the notible men,came to the prophetess for God's advice even though they had access to the Scriptures? Why the sudden turnaround?

[olger]

Dennis' stuff is usually real good.

[doug yowell]

Is there a Scripture that says Ellen White is the Spirit of Prophecy?

You don't have a Scripture to disprove that Woody, miz3 are both not the SOP. If you have such a Scripture then show us the Scripture that says Woody and miz3 are NOT the SOP.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy.Most SDA's are convinced that EGW had the testimony of Jesus. We're not sure of you and Woody.

[miz3]

Now that you have reduced your replies to just parroting back whatever you hear; we can see that you do not have any scripture to prove that the spirit of prophecy is something that we should ignore. This is the key question since you are the one who went into attack mode against the church's well-established and Biblical belief regarding the spirit of prophecy.

No one has made the claim that "Ellen White is the spirit of prophecy;" so you raise a beautiful red herring here.

You SDA and the SDA Church .org claims that the Bible does indeed speak of Ellen White as a future prophet.

So show me your Scripture that tells us that Ellen White will exist as a prophet.

I did not attack Ellen White. I attacked SDA and SDA Church .org usage of Ellen White as being ABOVE THE BIBLE.

Get your accusations of me correct.

Are you saying that Ellen White is NOT THE SOP?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Ellen White's "Godly inspiration" was like the Prophets of the Bible very limited in scope and very limited in quantity.

Isn't this exactly the opposite of what you've been arguing when you explain the prophetic "authority" of Huldah,and Deborah,(and Ellen White)? Wasn't the crux of your argument that all Israel, including the king and the notible men,came to the prophetess for God's advice even though they had access to the Scriptures? Why the sudden turnaround?

Quantity of writings. Quantity, Quantity.

No inconsistency here.