Separation of church and state

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Only Atheists Should Hold Public Office

By Andrew Riggio | Yahoo! Contributor Network – 22 hrs ago

http://news.yahoo.com/only-atheists-hold-public-office-235400792.html

If this were to become law, what foundation would government stand on that would not be arbitrary rules?

God blesses!

[Stan]

Atheism is a religion.

[Bravus]

I think it's a very silly proposal. Unconsitutional, too: no test of religion for public office includes no test of irreligion.

The claim that atheist morality is arbitrary, though, is just as silly.

Can't beat silliness with silliness.

No religious test for public office... pretty simple.

[LifeHiscost]

The claim that atheist morality is arbitrary, though, is just as silly.

So why would you suggest it?

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

The claim that atheist morality is arbitrary, though, is just as silly.

So why would you suggest it?

I thought you had. Apologies if I misunderstood.

But then, what *did* you mean by saying "If this were to become law, what foundation would government stand on that would not be arbitrary rules?"

[miz3]

There is no such thing as:

"Separation of Church and State".

Eternal Principle:

Every human entity has a "morality" whether they like it, want it, seek it or not.

Thus, every human entity has a/is a "religion".

God made this box and humans are never ever able to escape the box God has made for us.

[phkrause]

I don't believe that for one minute. And that is my opinion.

[Bravus]

That confuses morality and religion. Different names, different things.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Only Atheists Should Hold Public Office

By Andrew Riggio | Yahoo! Contributor Network – 22 hrs ago

http://news.yahoo.com/only-atheists-hold-public-office-235400792.html

If this were to become law, what foundation would government stand on that would not be arbitrary rules?

God blesses!

At one time our RL department seemed to be leaning that direction.

Fortunately they "got' betta".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The SDA church of the 1800's strongly supported separation of church and state - and the strongly supported the right of the state to abolish slavery and to ban the sale of alcohol on the grounds of moral principles defined by the Bible.

Thus the classic SDA denominational definition of "separation of church and state" is not exactly what many atheists had hoped for.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

Clifford Goldstien made the case in one of his books for a civil Sunday law that would have a civil and not a religious purpose. The Adventists Religious Liberty organizations would have a hard time opposing that.

The free exercise clause is what we are most concerned about. That is in contrast to the establishment clause. There are many nations in the world that have a government-endorsed church. That doesn't give us so much heartburn as those that go so far as banning the free exercise of religion. I believe Israel bans Christian churches from holding evangelistic crusades. Does anyone know if that is true?

[miz3]

I don't believe that for one minute. And that is my opinion.

Naturally because SDA and the SDA Church .org are deathly afraid of the "Big National Sunday Law" that Ellen White told us about.

I find this amazing that SDA and SDA Church .org would rather have the godless running things rather the Godly.

This is what happens when you put Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

[doug yowell]

Naturally because SDA and the SDA Church .org are deathly afraid of the "Big National Sunday Law" that Ellen White told us about.

I find this amazing that SDA and SDA Church .org would rather have the godless running things rather the Godly.

This is what happens when you put Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

Well, miz, since Ellen White would agree with your C/S assesment, does that mean that you also put your opinion above the Bible?? When you criticize SDA's for taking a position that is contrary to EGW's on the issue and then attribute the cause of their rejection of her opinion to their putting her above the Bible, you're startin to lose it man!!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Naturally because SDA and the SDA Church .org are deathly afraid of the "Big National Sunday Law" that Ellen White told us about.

I find this amazing that SDA and SDA Church .org would rather have the godless running things rather the Godly.

This is what happens when you put Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

Well, miz, since Ellen White would agree with your C/S assesment, does that mean that you also put your opinion above the Bible?? When you criticize SDA's for taking a position that is contrary to EGW's on the issue and then attribute the cause of their rejection of her opinion to their putting her above the Bible, you're startin to lose it man!!

I never ever said that Ellen White's opinions were always against/different from the Bible.

When her opinion, and/or anyone's opinion differs from the Bible then that opinion is wrong and must be discarded.

If our opinions agree with the Bible then we are in compliance with the Biblical Authority.

Ellen White's opinions like everyone elses' opinion never ever trump the Bible.

Second, I am not sure that Ellen White's opinion is in "full" agreement with mine. We may agree on some points. The only relevant point is are Ellen White and miz3 and all others in "compliance" with the Bible.

[phkrause]

Naturally because SDA and the SDA Church .org are deathly afraid of the "Big National Sunday Law" that Ellen White told us about.

I find this amazing that SDA and SDA Church .org would rather have the godless running things rather the Godly.

This is what happens when you put Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

1st, I don't fear a sunday law, I welcome it.

2ndly, I don't know any true Seventhday Adventist that is afraid of a NSL.

3rdly, I know of no SDAs that want the godless to run things rather than the Godly.

4th, I know of no true SDA that puts EGW before the Bible

And last but not least, I'm with Doug, I will take her interpretation of the Bible above yours

[Woody]

Preach it Brother. I'm with you pk. but not above EGW.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Naturally because SDA and the SDA Church .org are deathly afraid of the "Big National Sunday Law" that Ellen White told us about.

I find this amazing that SDA and SDA Church .org would rather have the godless running things rather the Godly.

This is what happens when you put Ellen White above the Bible and the Bible only.

1st, I don't fear a sunday law, I welcome it.

2ndly, I don't know any true Seventhday Adventist that is afraid of a NSL.

3rdly, I know of no SDAs that want the godless to run things rather than the Godly.

4th, I know of no true SDA that puts EGW before the Bible

And last but not least, I'm with Doug, I will take her interpretation of the Bible above yours

1. Many SDA fear it and the plagues because of Ellen White.

2a. I know that most are afraid.

2b. Define "true Seventh day Adventist".

3. What a sheltered life you must live.

4. Again you need to define "true SDA".

Again you must live a very sheltered life. You may not think so but either you are sheltered and/or you are in denial of the FACTS.

[LifeHiscost]

1. Many SDA fear it and the plagues because of Ellen White.

2a. I know that most are afraid.

2b. Define "true Seventh day Adventist".

3. What a sheltered life you must live.

4. Again you need to define "true SDA".

Again you must live a very sheltered life. You may not think so but either you are sheltered and/or you are in denial of the FACTS.

As Col Potter would say, "Horse hocky". And I know he was right when he said it because I was an Adventist when he

said it.

God blesses! and that's on the just and the unjust.

[Dr. Shane]

As Col Potter would say, "Horse hocky". And I know he was right when he said it because I was an Adventist when he

said it.

God blesses! and that's on the just and the unjust.

Of course you are right.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

1st, I don't fear a sunday law, I welcome it.

2ndly, I don't know any true Seventhday Adventist that is afraid of a NSL.

3rdly, I know of no SDAs that want the godless to run things rather than the Godly.

4th, I know of no true SDA that puts EGW before the Bible

And last but not least, I'm with Doug, I will take her interpretation of the Bible above yours

1. Many SDA fear it and the plagues because of Ellen White.

2a. I know that most are afraid.

2b. Define "true Seventh day Adventist".

3. What a sheltered life you must live.

4. Again you need to define "true SDA".

Again you must live a very sheltered life. You may not think so but either you are sheltered and/or you are in denial of the FACTS.

1. I confess that I once heard a pastor who made me fear the plagues, and was even more terrorfied of the second coming. However as I studied Mrs. White I lost my fear of the plagues and have come to long for the second coming.

2. Ok, maybe Pkruse did not use the best of language here, but there is a way how our critics seem to want us to be afraid, yet which I don't see in my expirence or in others. Now I have to admit I fear that there are too many Adventists who use the Sunday law and the second coming for contempt and as their necular bomb to destroy this miserable world, rather than loving the world as Jesus has loved it. Also, I fear that we have moved the Sunday Law to much to center stage instead of just a sign to get our attention and I fear that if it does not come out just the way we have built a tradition to expect, I fear that many will give up. The Sunday Law will pay a role and the Papacy will play a role. But the Papacy was a part of the 5th head, not the entire beast, and it will side with the 7th head but will not be the 7th head.

3. New York is home, and relatives out on the west coast that I visit a lot and some in Norway. Lived and worked in Israel in a multi religion ministry consiting of Christians, Jews and Muslims, studied with a Methodist Archaeologist who was a professor at Hebrew University. Was a Chaplain Assistant in the US Army and a Psychiatric Tech and then Psychiatric Nurse in the Air Force Reserves, work for the State of New York and have lived and worked in Japan and Germany. My favorite former girlfriends I knew from Israel, Japan, girls who have been Catholic, Buddists, different Protestants, how much more do I need to expirence before I'm no longer living a sheltered life?

[John317]

1. Many SDA fear it [sunday law, ed.] and the plagues because of Ellen White.

There's no reason to fear those things if a person is truly "in [union with] Christ."

However, we should be afraid of the plagues if we aren't abiding in Christ. The warning of the plagues is there in order to persuade people to repent and be converted if they're living outside of Christ. That is the message of both the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White. In fact, it's part of the Three Angels' Messages.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2a. I know that most are afraid.

Have you talked to most SDAs about it?

You're probably right that many SDAs are afraid, but being afraid is not necessarily a bad thing if it leads people to finally repent and be converted.

I have no doubt it's Satan who would tell people, "Hey, don't worry about it. It won't ever happen, and if it does, you'll definitely be OK."

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Many SDA fear it [sunday law, ed.] and the plagues because of Ellen White.

There's no reason to fear those things if a person is truly "in [union with] Christ."

However, we should be afraid of the plagues if we aren't abiding in Christ. The warning of the plagues is there in order to persuade people to repent and be converted if they're living outside of Christ. That is the message of both the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White. In fact, it's part of the Three Angels' Messages.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2a. I know that most are afraid.

Have you talked to most SDAs about it?

You're probably right that many SDAs are afraid, but being afraid is not necessarily a bad thing if it leads people to finally repent and be converted.

I have no doubt it's Satan who would tell people, "Hey, don't worry about it. It won't ever happen, and if it does, you'll definitely be OK."

1. The warning of the plagues cannot be as you say (highlighted in red above) because the the "seven last plagues" are:

a. to punish the wicked.

b. vent God's Wrath.

c. take place AFTER THE SECOND COMING. (see Revelation chapters fifteen and sixteen).

The Bible gets it correct but Ellen White does not agree with the Bible because she places the "seven last plagues": before the Second Coming and as you stated to strike fear in humans. Both these reasons are not in harmony with the Bible.

Thus, again, John317, just as you have asked many many times before for instances where Ellen White and the Bible disagree, here is another example where it is most clear that Ellen White and the Bible DISAGREE WIDELY.

2. Of course I am right(correct) about SDA being afraid of the plagues. In Ellen White's day it was the "thing" to spread the Gospel (truth) in a context of "fear".

"Fear" them into the SDA Church .org and then keep them afraid to maintain control.

[Kevin H]

Revelation is written in the style of a Chiasm and in the form of theatractrical plays of the day, you are not reading it in it's literary structure. The structure does not allow the reading you are giving it of the plagues being after the second coming and humans living on earth after the second coming. God is not some sort of sadistic monster getting his people out of the way so that he can release his wrath on others. The plagues are based on the Exodus, where the plagues did not fall after the Hebrews left but opened the way for them to leave. You need to study more into God's wrath and the nature of hell fire.

Also, the 6th plague is the drying up of the Eurphraties River so that the kings of the east may pass. This is also based on history that the Hebrews were in Babylon and the drying up of the river is what allowed Cyrus; God's anointed--i.e. messiah to come and deliver them. In Hebrew thought North was the direction of either God or someone falsely taking the position of God. South is secularism, and the east is the direction of the Messiah, and was the direction from which Cyrius and Darius, the kings of the east, Medio-Persia, came.

The 7th plague is the earthquake and hail. This comes from the Psalms and is a symbol of God becoming pressent in person.

Also the term "7 LAST plagues" indicate there are more than just the 7. The other 5 are Old Testament symbols of generalized distruction. The 7 last steps of earth being destroyed. The 6th plague is saying that everything is now ready for the Messiah to come and deliver his people: Armageddon probably does not mean the area of Megedo*, but simply "Mt. of the Congragation" or Mt. Zion symbolizing the judgement of the second coming, and the 7th plague is simply the second coming itself.

* Even if you want to take Armageddon to be Megedo, you have there the Jezereel valley which has played a role in every major war from the first war that we have recorded through World War 1, when there was a battle there there would be a new world empire, and when Jesus comes he will be king of kings and lord of lords.

[Naomi]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. Many SDA fear it [sunday law, ed.] and the plagues because of Ellen White.

There's no reason to fear those things if a person is truly "in [union with] Christ."

However, we should be afraid of the plagues if we aren't abiding in Christ. The warning of the plagues is there in order to persuade people to repent and be converted if they're living outside of Christ. That is the message of both the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White. In fact, it's part of the Three Angels' Messages.

[miz3]

Revelation is written in the style of a Chiasm and in the form of theatractrical plays of the day, you are not reading it in it's literary structure. The structure does not allow the reading you are giving it of the plagues being after the second coming and humans living on earth after the second coming. God is not some sort of sadistic monster getting his people out of the way so that he can release his wrath on others. The plagues are based on the Exodus, where the plagues did not fall after the Hebrews left but opened the way for them to leave. You need to study more into God's wrath and the nature of hell fire.

Also, the 6th plague is the drying up of the Eurphraties River so that the kings of the east may pass. This is also based on history that the Hebrews were in Babylon and the drying up of the river is what allowed Cyrus; God's anointed--i.e. messiah to come and deliver them. In Hebrew thought North was the direction of either God or someone falsely taking the position of God. South is secularism, and the east is the direction of the Messiah, and was the direction from which Cyrius and Darius, the kings of the east, Medio-Persia, came.

The 7th plague is the earthquake and hail. This comes from the Psalms and is a symbol of God becoming pressent in person.

Also the term "7 LAST plagues" indicate there are more than just the 7. The other 5 are Old Testament symbols of generalized distruction. The 7 last steps of earth being destroyed. The 6th plague is saying that everything is now ready for the Messiah to come and deliver his people: Armageddon probably does not mean the area of Megedo*, but simply "Mt. of the Congragation" or Mt. Zion symbolizing the judgement of the second coming, and the 7th plague is simply the second coming itself.

* Even if you want to take Armageddon to be Megedo, you have there the Jezereel valley which has played a role in every major war from the first war that we have recorded through World War 1, when there was a battle there there would be a new world empire, and when Jesus comes he will be king of kings and lord of lords.

Typical pagan assessments of the Bible and how it is written.

These pagan assessments always attribute the Bible to some philosophical, literary, etc. type rather attribute the Bible as the Direct Word of God.

This will always lead to the WRONG CONCLUSIONS.