Was Jesus Ignorant?

[Woody]

Was Jesus ignorant when He stated "Why has thou forsaken me" ?

At a minimum he apparently did not understand the Plan of Salvation at that point.

What say you?

[Gerr]

Was Jesus ignorant when He stated "Why has thou forsaken me" ?

At a minimum he apparently did not understand the Plan of Salvation at that point.

What say you?

Ignorant? Nooooooooooooooo!

ESV | ‎2 Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

ESV | ‎Is 53:6 .. the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

ESV | ‎Is 53:12 because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors;

As one counted as a transgressor, and as one who took upon himself the sins of the whole world, He experienced what it means for a sinner to be totally forsaken by God.

[Gail]

No...

I think he was quoting from Psalm 22:1 and fulfilling Scripture prophecy.

Jesus had a habit of quoting Scripture. He did it a LOT! He truly lived by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[phkrause]

Absolutely not, don't buy that for a minute or even a second.

[Gibs]

We may have ideas about this but I wonder if EGW doesn't have a little more insight on this than we might. Anyway here is a short one I found and she makes 74 on this and I didn't read them all but a lot of them give the idea this one does,

"Oh, was there ever suffering and sorrow like that endured by the dying Saviour! It was the sense of His Father's displeasure which made His cup so bitter. It was not bodily suffering which so quickly ended the life of Christ upon the cross. It was the crushing weight of the sins of the world, and a sense of His Father's wrath. . . . The fierce temptation that His own Father had forever left Him caused that piercing cry from the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" {AG 170.4}

In His dying agony, as He yields up His precious life, He has by faith alone to trust in Him whom it has ever been His joy to obey. . . . Denied even bright hope and confidence in the triumph which will be His in the future, He cries with a loud voice: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46). He is acquainted with the character of His Father, with His justice, His mercy, and His great love, and in submission He drops into His hands." {AG 170.5}

Jesus fully understood the plan of salvation as He and the Father laid it, and His Faith was the greatest, we all need the "Faith of Jesus Christ" and should pray for it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.I think He fully understood the plan as He and the Father laid it. And His Faith we all need, "The Faith of Jesus Christ".

[Woody]

Quote:

Jesus fully understood the plan of salvation

Saying he understood is fine.If that is what you think.

And it sounds PC.

But the evidence of His words seem to say something different to me.

[miz3]

This is a very interesting question.

My initial response is to say the same as Gerry Cabalo and Gail.

However, on further thought you might have something by your question.

I will have to think about this more.

[miz3]

Would like to hear more from you Woody as to why/what you think about this.

[Woody]

I don't know. I am just trying to weigh the evidence as presented. ANd unless there is another explanation - I tend to think that Jesus did not fully understand HIS role in the plan of salvation.

[miz3]

How does this text fit with your view?

"Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

John19:28-30.

Focus on the underlined part.

It seems from this text that Jesus Christ was in full control of His faculties and awareness of what is happening.

[Woody]

Okay. I am relieved to learn that Jesus had his faculties.Or may I say that He "re"gained his faculties.

[miz3]

Okay. I am relieved to learn that Jesus had his faculties.Or may I say that He "re"gained his faculties.

If I am reading correctly you are saying that Jesus Christ lost his faculties for a short period and then regained those same faculties near the very end?

[Woody]

Isn't that what we all do at times? Jesus lost it and then prayed to the Father. He then got His act together. That's what I read. Does anyone else see something different?

[jasd]

>>Was Jesus ignorant when He stated "Why has thou forsaken me" ?<<

Well He may have been – in a non-pejorative sense, that is... He Himself confessed to ignorance when He stated:

Mk 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son but the Father.

However, there is another fact that disturbs. There were those who stood nearby the cross who thought that Jesus Christ called Elias (Mk 15:35 and Matt 27:47). Seems that there was some question as to what Jesus Christ was actually (literally) crying out; which may denote an unfamiliarity with the language Jesus Christ was employing. Moreover, the words in Writ necessitated a paraphrase; whereas, that which follows can be transliterated.

There is the postulation that Aramaic and Mayan are familial languages – and that Jesus Christ may have been crying out in Mayan – saying, “HELI, LAMAH ZABAC TANI” meaning, “Now I immerse myself in the pre-dawn of your presence.” That would fit nicely with “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Lu 23:46).

Then again, there are those who, [still] purporting a Mayan interpretation, do so thusly: “HELE, HELE, LAMAH ZABAC TA NI” meaning, “Now, now, I am fainting; darkness covers my face.” That would fit nicely with “And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour” (Mk 15:33).

Then again, the parallel with Psalms 22 cannot be ignored; however, there may be an ameliorating circumstance. The mines of Solomon were actually the mines of King David, and their name ‘The mines of Ophir’ finds a neat parallel with the most ancient cartographer’s designation of Peru – that is, ‘Ophiru’.

A careful read of the Biblical passages re the voyage to ‘Ophir’ and the cargoes brought back tend to support a location for the mines of Ophir as being in Central and South America.

And then, perhaps it is noteworthy that the Mormon’s claim - that the Central and South Americans were of the Lost Tribes of Israel. ;-)

Interesting? Mebbe. Speculative? Who knows?

[Woody]

miz3 - This is what your favorite author says:

Quote:

"The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal."

[Aliensanctuary]

I wonder if he was disconnected from the Spirit of God, leaving him unable to communicate with him. To create the extreme darkness, there must have been something very large hovering overhead.

[miz3]

Isn't that what we all do at times? Jesus lost it and then prayed to the Father. He then got His act together. That's what I read. Does anyone else see something different?

I appears that things may not be "cut and dried" as we may think.

Like I said before, I am going to think more about this. And pray too.

[miz3]

I wonder if he was disconnected from the Spirit of God, leaving him unable to communicate with him. To create the extreme darkness, there must have been something very large hovering overhead.

Another good thought since the "second death" or Hell is a separating experience among other things. Who would be "rational" who experiences Hell?

I don't think one in Hell will be anything close to "rational".

On the Cross Jesus Christ did experience Hell for all of us.

[Stan]

Can you PLEASE come up with a better title for this thread.

[Woody]

Certainly Stan. If anyone wants to change it they are free to do so. I welcome any new ideas.

[Gustave]

Was Jesus ignorant when He stated "Why has thou forsaken me" ?

At a minimum he apparently did not understand the Plan of Salvation at that point.

What say you?

As another has already said - Jesus was quoting Ps 22...

...Which would have immediately been recognized by any at the cross familiar with the Scriptures.

...The end of that Psalm:

"They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."

[Dr. Rich]

Was Jesus ignorant when He stated "Why has thou forsaken me" ?

At a minimum he apparently did not understand the Plan of Salvation at that point.

What say you?

Was Jesus ignorant when He said that He did not know when He was going to come back?

[miz3]

The definition:

ig·no·rant [ig-ner-uhnt]

adjective

1.

lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.

2.

lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.

3.

uninformed; unaware.

4.

due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statemen

Thus, the question could be worded, "Did Jesus have a lack of knowledge" when he cried out that His Father had forsaken Him?

[Woody]

Quote:

Thus, the question could be worded, "Did Jesus have a lack of knowledge" when he cried out that His Father had forsaken Him?

It would appear so wouldn't it. The third definition includes the word unaware which might fit also.

Hmmm. Could it be that the word chosen for this thread "fits"?

[Gibs]

The fountain of all truth and wisdom being ignorant at any time, a decided no!

I believe the Saints are to feel the same anquish of soul when His Spirit is withdrawn just for a time before He comes again. I believe this will be when He stands up and proclaims it is finished. Then is pronounced, let him who is righteous be righteous still and he who is filty be filthy still.

But their faith stands as His did but the rest probably howl in agony. I know this will be a fearful time. Egw makes several statements about this time those familiar and have her writings might go see her take on this.

Not far around the corner of time folks, get the Spiritual Houses in order and make sure of keeping it so.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.