Persecuted Christians vis-a-vis Radical Islamists

[Gerr]

Nigeria looks like on the verge of civil war. One hundred seventy-six people are reported dead by Islamist bombing. Many of these are Christians. How should the Christians respond to the thread of annihilation? Is taking up arms to defend themselves ever an option?

[Gustave]

Nigeria looks like on the verge of civil war. One hundred seventy-six people are reported dead by Islamist bombing. Many of these are Christians. How should the Christians respond to the thread of annihilation? Is taking up arms to defend themselves ever an option?

Well,

Luke 22,36

Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough

A Christian is not supposed to look for violence but there is such a thing as JUST WAR...

...If it's down to someone taking your loved ones life or your own.

...Pick up your sword!

[Gustave]

There are plenty of examples of Just War in the Old Covenant...

...And while I don't believe for a minute that God wanted people killed.

...The fact reamains that they were - as people became more aware of what God wanted.

...These types of things slowed down.

The Ultimate revelation of God was Christ - He calls us to practice love always....

...However to stand by and watch the helpless be slaughtered doing nothing.

...Is to join in the evil.

[Dr. Rich]

Not only did God command that people be killed, but He commanded that even the animals should be killed. The words of the serpant ring out loud and clear--God is so full of love and grace that He NEVER would hurt, much less, kill anyone..... Hmmmm? (wink, wink)

[BobRyan]

Not only did God command that people be killed, but He commanded that even the animals should be killed.

And you also believe that Paul was evil as well -- right?

There is a certain consistency in your views with another well known major world-religion.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

Mr. Ryan, I never said that God was evil--where did you get that idea? God killed millions in the flood didn't He? What about the the first born males in Egypt who ignored the warning Moses gave them?

You just wrote something about derailing in the post above this one and yet you are now attempting to derail this post--Hmmmm?

Could be that the "King of the North" and the "King of the South" found in Daniel could also be the Jews, Catholics and Christians against the Muslims, Buddists, Hindu and Eastern Religions?

[Gustave]

God had a pretty low expectation for many who were described in the Old Covenant...

...They did things as "holy" men that we today would recoil in horror from.

...The whole point to the Old Covenant was to purify Israel - to burn off impurity so as to produce an alloy.

Once the set time was reached God entered ( manifested ) humanity to initiate His Kingdom...

...At that point the brutality of the task master came to an end - problem is that many do not realize this.

...God does not expect us to sit by while innocent people are slaughtered.

...If Christians are truly the "body of Christ" He expects action from that body and protection of the weak is part of it.

[Patrick Lawrence]

I think it is a personal choice. It seems pretty clear God is against murder. But a just war can be OK. But I have seen people convicted of never serving in combat and I think that is fine. And I have seen other people serving in combat and that was fine also. Really I think it is only one of those things you can decide on your own after prayer. See God's goal is to get us to heaven. So it is possible the combat would do something to keep a person out of heaven. So he could move that person not to do it. But the next person would deal with it differently and it might in the long run help them get to heaven. Or they might save some one else that then has a chance to get to heaven. God is the only one that knows. And I see no clear message in the Bible killing is always wrong.

[ClubV12]

Personal choice in the matter of a "just war" is the position of the Adventist Church. At the same time, the counsel, from Ellen White and the Church at large, is to be a conscience cooperator. We are not called to bear arm's, period.

There were many things that were acceptable in old testament times that are not acceptable today. God has many ways to handle strife and killing that do not need to directly involve His people. Gideon comes to mind. The Red Sea and the Egyptians come to mind. If and when it becomes necessary to enter war Christians, Adventists, are not called to bear arms. If and when you are forced into bearing arms, as was the case during the Civil War, WW1 in some European countries, it would be madness, even suicide to resist. The difference here is being forced vs volunteering, a "just war" does not become an excuse to take life. That is the sin of presumption.

There are many who justify their actions in such a way and violate the sixth commandment, these are the people God would use to protect His people. The "walking spiritually dead". The Israelites never had a need or a reason to pick up a sword and fight for themselves. God would have provided a way to cleanse the land had they been in complete harmony with His ways. The problem then and now, is that we are so far removed from following His counsel to the letter, we don't know what to do. It is virtually impossible to be "mostly" a Christian and fully understand spiritual things.

When James and Ellen White were traveling through "indian country" and the very real threat of being attacked was imminent, what did they do? Their hired merceneries! Men with guns, men who would not hesitate to take life when warranted. As for the Christians in that party, they would not bear arms, they would trust in the Lord for their protection. The Israelites could have done much the same, there was no need for them personally to pick up a sword. But they were a backward people, still learning of God's ways. Sometimes they got it right, sometimes they messed it up so bad God had to work with their choices. Like when they asked for a King, that was not God's first plan, but He allowed it. And we see the end results of that poor choice.

What if your family is attacked on the street by a group of robbers? Frankly my first question would be: What counsel have you ignored to place yourself into a situation where this could happen? Are we not told to leave the cities? Human reasoning says, the suburbs are OK. Or, we NEED to live in the cities to reach the people. There is no end to the "excuses", and thus, you place yourself and your family on Satans ground.

Did Stephen pick up a sword when they were stoning him? We know there will be a LOT of martyrs in the end times, are they called to pick up a sword? No, a 1,000 times no. There is no excuse for those who are absolutely dedicated to following all the counsel. For those who "mostly" follow it, your "mostly" on your own.

God did not "murder" anyone during the flood, every one who died had made their own choice. They were "walking dead men" already, they had no respect for God's laws. ALL who take that position will ulmately face the same fate, death eternal. When the cup of iniquity is full, death on this earth as well. God will not be trifled with, His law, His words are sure. Obey and live, there is no position of "mostly". It's a yes or no issue, 100% or 0%. Anything in between, your on your own.

[Dr. Rich]

I think it is a personal choice. It seems pretty clear God is against murder. But a just war can be OK. But I have seen people convicted of never serving in combat and I think that is fine. And I have seen other people serving in combat and that was fine also. Really I think it is only one of those things you can decide on your own after prayer. See God's goal is to get us to heaven. So it is possible the combat would do something to keep a person out of heaven. So he could move that person not to do it. But the next person would deal with it differently and it might in the long run help them get to heaven. Or they might save some one else that then has a chance to get to heaven. God is the only one that knows. And I see no clear message in the Bible killing is always wrong.

Good response. A time is coming shortly when you will see a war against those found in Rev. 12:17 and the rest of the world. It will not be a war of bullets and bombs, but of truth verses lies.

but remember this, all men and women are not equil physically. It was said that Samual Colt however, made them even with his "Peace Maker". I was drafted in the Army, yet I also was not a coward and became a medic as most Adventists did. I never had to even hold a rifle or pistol while in the Army, but afterwards I became a police officer and have carried guns thereafter. Anyone choosing to hurt me or my family and friends are in for a real battle! I figure they have simply chosen to commit suicide. Once our SDA church had a couple hoodlems who pulled guns and took the church offering. My dad was right there and saw and and simple told me what was going on. Talk about a real surprise ending for them when I stopped them just outside of the church with my gun on them! Later, I had to assist in an arrest of our youth pastor for sexual assult on young boys. That's another story!

As for EGW and family saying they didn't carry guns? That's not really true since they enjoyed hunting and ate many a meal of wild game.

[Aliensanctuary]

Matt 5:

Quote:

39. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;

Matt 5:

Quote:

44. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;

I believe Jesus has told us not to fight back when attacked, because that is selfishness. What happens in this life, whether we live or die, is not as important as the choices we must make after the resurrection. At that time, we must forgive those who have harmed us, just as others will forgive us for the harm we caused them.

[Gustave]

I believe Jesus has told us not to fight back when attacked, because that is selfishness. What happens in this life, whether we live or die, is not as important as the choices we must make after the resurrection. At that time, we must forgive those who have harmed us, just as others will forgive us for the harm we caused them.

If a Pedophile grabbed your kid when you were on a bus and started to de-pants him/her...

...For the express purpose of satisfying the creeps lust for "young'uns".

...Are you telling me you would lift your hands to heaven and ask the Lord to forgive the guy doing stuff to you kid?

Extend this concept to a Nation attacking another and multiplying the horror described above....

...By hundreds of thousands of cases.

...Are you telling me God looks at the lack of action of Christians and nods His head?

[Nan]

I believe Jesus has told us not to fight back when attacked, because that is selfishness. What happens in this life, whether we live or die, is not as important as the choices we must make after the resurrection. At that time, we must forgive those who have harmed us, just as others will forgive us for the harm we caused them.

On a slightly different tack, I would have thought that the forgiving happened before the resurrection....or is that just me?

[LifeHiscost]

Is taking up arms to defend themselves ever an option?

"But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”"Matthew 26:52-54 NKJV

"Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”"John 18:36 NLT

"I have given you an example to follow. Do as I have done to you."John 13:15 NLT

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matthew 10:28 NASB

God blesses!

[Patrick Lawrence]

Again I think it is up to each person. But we do have some basic guidlines. http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/MilitaryService.html

As for not ever taking up arms the versus in the Bible seem to be mainly about fighting for Jesus. And it is true his Kingdom was not of this earth. But that does not relate to everything in regard to self defense murder etc etc. It is the same Jesus / God through the entire Bible. Things have to fit in harmony. There are many things in the Bible that are death sentences. The armies with of Israel with God's blessing killed people. And the Angel of the Lord kills people "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." That is for those that believe God never kills.

But there is also a case for pacifism with things like love your enemy etc. http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

So clearly the Bible does not seem to have a message that ONLY one way is correct. And since I have to take the entire Bible I have to say it is between you and God.

[Dr. Rich]

No Nan, it's not just you either. Some here believe they are saved no matter what and will repent after the alleged resurection. But they are in for a real surpise! Repent, and sin no more!

[ClubV12]

A man and his wife were recently killed in Mexico, Baptist Ministers, they had been there for years. Running a church.

I guess they could have picked up a gun and tried to shoot their way out....

[olger]

Good thread...

[Gustave]

At the end of the day we have to face the fact that Jesus was the ONLY Person...

...Who was intended to DIE - that's why He came here and nothing would have stopped that from happening.

When Jesus went into the temple He got violent.

When we see wrong things happening to others - when the talking fails....

...It's time to start turning over tables and doing some beating.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

..It's time to start turning over tables and doing some beating.

The odds of that being God's perfect will are slim to nothing. As you say, it is each person's free choice.

"There is a path before each person that seems right, but it ends in death." Proverbs 14:12 NLT

"“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword."Matthew 26:52 NLT

God blesses!

[Gustave]

Quote:

..It's time to start turning over tables and doing some beating.

The odds of that being God's perfect will are slim to nothing. As you say, it is each person's free choice.

"There is a path before each person that seems right, but it ends in death." Proverbs 14:12 NLT

"“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword."Matthew 26:52 NLT

God blesses!

Like I said, Jesus was the only Person that was created to DIE....

...What good would it have done had Peter went Jedi on the Temple guards?

...Christ would NOT have allowed that to happn.

Again - if Jesus would have happened on some thugs molesting a woman or child against their will...

...You can bet Jesus would have done more than "verbally rebuked" the criminals.

[ClubV12]

I don't know that Jesus would need to do anymore than a "verbal rebuke". When it was needful, the angels stepped in, to protect or take control of a situation. Jesus never struck anyone or took any physical action against anyone.

[phkrause]

Like I said, Jesus was the only Person that was created to DIE....

"Created to Die" he was not a created being like we are.

[phkrause]

I don't know that Jesus would need to do anymore than a "verbal rebuke". When it was needful, the angels stepped in, to protect or take control of a situation. Jesus never struck anyone or took any physical action against anyone.

[ClubV12]

"Created to Die"

Yeah, wow, I almost missed that PK. An important point of correction to what was hopefully a miss type, an unintentional error, a major faux pau, a Jehovah witness wouldn't have a problem with that statemnt, but I sure do!

Carry on....