Just A Question

[Gibs]

Why are SDA's still keeping the Sabbath if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved? A lot more people would probably come through the doors that way or would they. Are they just sugestions or is it deeper than that?

Maybe more would quit than would be the increase!

Just another angle to look at and wonder what opinions abound out there among us here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why are SDA's still keeping the Sabbath if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved?

Personally I don't keep the Sabbath to be saved. I keep the Sabbath because I AM saved.

[Naomi]

Quote:

Why are SDA's still keeping the Sabbath if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved?

Personally I don't keep the Sabbath to be saved. I keep the Sabbath because I AM saved.

You nailed it Woody!!!

[Gibs]

But a lot of people don't keep the Sabbath but say and believe they are saved. What is the score anyway? Are they right or are we wrong. Did God mean what He said and was it nailed to the cross and now there's only two. Now that should make it easier should it not?

Kinda like I can do it my way?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

I suspect that there will be more people who don't keep Sabbath who will be saved - than those who do.

[Naomi]

I believe that each person is responsible only for the 'light'/knowledge that they have.

IMHO Just going to church on the 7th day is not a ticket to eternal life with our Lord.

[Woody]

I believe that each person is responsible only for the 'light'/knowledge that they have.

IMHO Just going to church on the 7th day is not a ticket to eternal life with our Lord.

Exactly Naomi

[Gibs]

Great comments.-- And now are we responsible for only the light we have chosen to believe or the light that we should have come to realize with our advantages?

I will just paste some scripture for reckoning the subject.

Pr 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Now the nitty gritty,

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joh 16:13 says so much, "he will guide you into all truth" and further, "and he will shew you things to come". What a great verse!

Will we have any excuses at the great white throne to offer? I know there is some who are illiterate even in this day according to what is reported.

Something to think about.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

I am in agreement Naomi. The problem I see is many Christians don't read there bibles, or study in general. So will they be accountable for not studying. EGW mentions in the GC that the Sabbath will not be a test till the Sundays laws are brought up. I agree that there will be many more sunday keepers in heaven, since there has been many more sunday keepers throughout earth's history. We as Sabbath keeping Christians know that there is no passage's in the Bible were it says that the Sabbath was done away with. Even the RCC accepts that and tell the rest of the Christians that if they believe the Bible than they are not following it. Even Jesus tells us, if you love me "keep my commandments." Pretty obvious that they are not done away with. So again I agree with Woody that we don't just follow the commandments because we have to but because we love him and because he died for us.

[Naomi]

Quote:

The problem I see is many Christians don't read there bibles, or study in general. So will they be accountable for not studying.

Yes, pkrause I agree tha many don't read their bibles. : "Study to show thyself approved" I should think it would be a given that we would be held accountable for not studying.

Yet, there are/have been many people who have not had an opportuniity to know/understand all the light.

[Gibs]

The Sunday enforcement will be very near the end of all things and the command comes down from Satan Himself. I see that from the prophecy and EGW also makes a comment to that effect also and she voiced an opinion that Satan is the player of Rev. 13:13-17, now read Rev. 13:11 to the end and see if the context is ever broken, you will find it is not. I've posted those before but if any would like them again or missed it before and note of it here ins a comment and will do it again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin H]

Why did Able offer the commanded sacrifice if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved? A lot more people would probably come through the doors that way or would they. Are they just sugestions or is it deeper than that?

In the story of Cain and Able, who was the legalist? The one who trusted God enough to obey or the one who worshiped in his own way?

The Sabbath is both a symbol that I take the whole Bible seriously and it is the symbol that I worship God as the creator and my stand to the world that I worship the creator God.

[BobRyan]

But a lot of people don't keep the Sabbath but say and believe they are saved. What is the score anyway? Are they right or are we wrong. Did God mean what He said and was it nailed to the cross and now there's only two. Now that should make it easier should it not?

Kinda like I can do it my way?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The lost person cannot "refuse to steal" so much that they "become saved" - any more than a lost person can "keep Sabbath so well that they become saved".

We have always said that the lost person has only one recourse - repentance for sins, surrender to the Holy Spirit's leading - accepting the New Birth - etc.

But once saved - Paul tells us "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 - and this is the choice of those who choose to "walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh" Romans 8.

For the one that you serve - that is the one that is your master according to Romans 6.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

Amen BobRyan, a very good and right comment, our doing reveals our master.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Why did Able offer the commanded sacrifice if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved? A lot more people would probably come through the doors that way or would they. Are they just sugestions or is it deeper than that?

In the story of Cain and Able, who was the legalist? The one who trusted God enough to obey or the one who worshiped in his own way?

The Sabbath is both a symbol that I take the whole Bible seriously and it is the symbol that I worship God as the creator and my stand to the world that I worship the creator God.

Kenin, could you please show us where God "commanded" a "sacrifice" to Cain and Able?

Every version of the bible I have say what Able and Cain did was an "offerinng". Able was a rancher and therefore simply offered an animal as a first fruit. It had nothing to do with any so called "sacrifice" or blood of an animal. What made it acceptable was that it was a first fruit and it was without blemish.

If Cain had offered the first fruits of plants that were also the best of the take, then would not have God accepted this offering?

[Dr. Rich]

The Sunday enforcement will be very near the end of all things and the command comes down from Satan Himself. I see that from the prophecy and EGW also makes a comment to that effect also and she voiced an opinion that Satan is the player of Rev. 13:13-17, now read Rev. 13:11 to the end and see if the context is ever broken, you will find it is not. I've posted those before but if any would like them again or missed it before and note of it here ins a comment and will do it again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, Could you please point out where Jesus ever said anything about a "Sunday enforcement"? If you got your opinion from EGW's writings, would not you call that adding to the book of Revelation things that are really not found there?

As to Satan being a player, yes, Satan himself IS the second 'beast' of Rev. 13. This only happens at the start of the last 5 new moons of the time of trouble. However, at this time all of those who are found in Rev. 7:9-15 (the bride) will have already made their choice for salvation. There will NOT be a chance for anyone to make a choice after the first 37 new moons (months) of the time of trouble, therefore, the "Mark of the Beast" can't and will not be any so called "national Sunday law".

[Dr. Rich]

Why are SDA's still keeping the Sabbath if it isn't neccesary to keep the commandments to be saved? A lot more people would probably come through the doors that way or would they. Are they just sugestions or is it deeper than that?

Maybe more would quit than would be the increase!

Just another angle to look at and wonder what opinions abound out there among us here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Read. Rev. 12:17 and you will find the real answer. Jesus NEVER did away with the ten commandments as will be proven when the ark of the ten commandments (covenant) is shown after the 7th Trumpet blows. This IS the measuring bar that everyone will be judged by.

No, God/Jesus never sait anything about the ten Commandments being done away with--as you are confused at the difference of what Jesus said verses what Paul said and taught--as the writer of Romans taught a different gospel than what Jesus taught.

[Gibs]

Dr. Rich,

I'm glad you see Satan to be the second beast of Rev. 13. The last 42 moonths of time for the first beast to make war is after it's deadly wound is healed and we are at that point now I believe.

If one don't know what the mark of Satan is, how then can one be sure of avoiding it. It is his crowning deception and the trademark of his name. What is that that he will attempt to make all the world bow to?

I suppose we have different idea on that and I say it is Sunday the mark of the sun god whom he is.

Sunday being the mark I don't need from EGW on that as I deduct the same. Jesus did not talk about it to my immediate recollection but John did the revealing.

Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It appears one will receive one of the three underlined, and we know his name and number as that is given in the chapter, unless one don't recognize it is Satan who is the second player.

It looks to me if we understand that we will not be deceived unless when he comes on the scene we believe him to Jesus Christ.

Dr. Rich, any way you nor I are afraid to step out of the box and be counted on what we see.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, there are 42 new moons for the "holy people". But they are not the same as the 3 and a half years for the time of trouble. The time of trouble starts at the Spring Equinox and a new moon starts at the dark of the moon.

When the censer is cast down to the earth, probation is over and no longer can anyone make a choice to be saved. This happens at the 5th Bowl and 7th Seal is broken. 37 of the 42 new moons have passed and there is only 5 left. At that time Satan is givenn the key to allow him and the demons to be seen as they were seen on the earth prior to being thrown into the pit so to speak. They will have physical bodies and will fool many.

However, please notice that their torment is not upon anyone who is considered holy (sealed by God) and this lasts ONLY during the last 5 months (new moons) until the death of the two witnesses which happens at or near the fall equinox of 1219. Jesus then raise them from the dead and after this Jesus comes back in the clouds--not the same event as the coming like a thief prior to the start of the time of trouble.

And no, the crowing deceiption will not be a sunday law, but will be when Go gives to Satan the power to make the image of the beast come to life.

Rev. 2:18-26 shows that the woman who is called a prophetess taught things that were not true and has lead those who would be bond servants, away from the real truth. IF EGW is that woman, then why would anyone want to believe anything that she taught? We know for sure that the "closed door vision" was wrong and we know that what she said on page 433 of the GC was completely wrong (no Jesus can't come at any time), so the ONLY reason as to why leaders, pastors and teachers follow her writings today can ONLY be because of this prphecy. It is no wonder it was prophesied that the KOH as the SDA church would be sleeping when Jesus comes like a thief! (Matt. 25:1-13)

[John317]

Rev. 2:18-26 shows that the woman who is called a prophetess taught things that were not true and has lead those who would be bond servants, away from the real truth. IF EGW is that woman, then why would anyone want to believe anything that she taught? We know for sure that the "closed door vision" was wrong and we know that what she said on page 433 of the GC was completely wrong (no Jesus can't come at any time), so the ONLY reason as to why leaders, pastors and teachers follow her writings today can ONLY be because of this prphecy. It is no wonder it was prophesied that the KOH as the SDA church would be sleeping when Jesus comes like a thief! (Matt. 25:1-13)

There's no valid reason to believe Ellen White is "that woman" in Rev. 2: 18ff.

Ellen White never claimed to have a "closed door vision." On the contrary, it was the visions that helped her and others to see that the "closed door" idea was wrong.

Quote:

The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the most holy place, beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Saviour's change of ministration, and they saw that He was now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners. {GC 433.1}

The ark in the tabernacle on earth contained the two tables of stone, upon which were inscribed the precepts of the law of God. The ark was merely a receptacle for the tables of the law, and the presence of these divine precepts gave to it its value and sacredness. When the temple of God was opened in heaven, the ark of His testament was seen. {GC 433}

What do you consider "completely wrong" about the above paragraphs?

[John317]

And no, the crowing deceiption will not be a sunday law, but will be when Go gives to Satan the power to make the image of the beast come to life.

Ellen White never claimed-- nor do SDAs believe-- that the Sunday law will be "the crowning deception."

Quote:

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will attempt to personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air, “Christ has come! Christ has come!” {TA 273.2}

The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands, and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was personally upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious,heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed. He declares that those who persist in keeping holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name by refusing to listen to his angels sent to them with light and truth. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion.—4SP 441, 442. {TA 273, 274}

[John317]

God gives to Satan the power to make the image of the beast come to life.

What do you believe will be "the image of the beast" which will come to life?

[Dr. Rich]

John, this is what is wrong: "Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement."

I can understand that someone who had not yet read all of Revelation 11 would not be able to catch the problem here (disinormation) because they would not have seen that first, the two live witnesses had to have been killed and taken to heaven, and that the second woe had passed, and the 7th Trumpet had already sounded and more importantly, that all of the kingdoms of this world had now become the Kingdom of Jesus. and that time was given for the rewards of the saints.

The problem is that NONE of these things have happened yet! Clearly, EGW mistakenly thought they had been done. When the temple of God is opened and the ark of the covenant will appear is only after everything has been finished and is when Jesus comes in the clouds. It has nothing to do with any so called investigative judgment.

However, because MANY leaders and teachers who falsly believe that Jesus could come at any time right now, proves my point--that they have been led astray into believing false teachings, thereby showing that the prophecy in Rev. 2:18-26 is the real truth, that EGW clearly the one spoken of there.

OF course I know others will not agree, but this is MY position. IF, and I do mean IF, I am correct, then the separation of the ten virgins is not going to be a beautiful thing to watch. If I am not correct, then please show us another who fits as tight as what EGW does. If you can't do this, then just remember, these warnings were not placed there for no reason at all!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

God gives to Satan the power to make the image of the beast come to life.

What do you believe will be "the image of the beast" which will come to life?

Just what it says in Rev. 13:14-16 and Dan. 11:31. This is the Abomination of Desolation. This will be a image much the same as Nebuchadnezar had set as found in Dan. 3:3. God gives Satan the power to make it come to life.

[John317]

Are you saying that you believe Satan will be able to make a statue come alive?