Conspiracy Theories Timeline and Origins

[Lysimachus]

See, this is the problem Patrick.

I'm also against conspiracy theories. (of course, when I was saying I love my conspiracy theories, I was joking...hope you know that. But I said that because I will confess, your passion in blowing this out of proportion and really making a huge issue out of this subject began to irritate me--and for that I'm sorry).

But there are a lot of contentions in high places that lead one to question. We don't have the answers, and it's not safe to come to conclusions, but it is okay to QUESTION and WONDER. 90% of the time Walter Veith does not conclude anything as a "fact", but leaves it as an open question to get us thinking. It gets you to realize that we should not be viewing our world with rose colored glasses.

Revelation is very clear that there is going to be a New World Order, when all the kings of the earth will unite with the beast.

If you don't think it requires tricky insider job to accomplish this world-wide goal, then may I ask, how else can it be accomplished?

Do you think it's going to happen really easy out in the open without some careful, diabolical, insider work to get this mission accomplished?

Satan is not stupid. He is working BEHIND the scenes to accomplish his New World Order agenda. This is a no-brainer! And it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out. The New World Order doesn't happen over night. Yikes, you only hear dozens of Presidents using the term!

With that said, it's no WONDER there are so many missing pieces to the puzzle concerning the activities and actions of men in high-places, and a lot of questions that lead one to wonder why they do things in a certain way.

[Lysimachus]

Ellen White also never used the term "Dispensationalism", when Dispensationalism was very much in existence in her day.

She also never used the term "Historicism", or "Historicist", even though she was straight from the Historicist breed of Prophetic Protestant thought! Methodists were Historicists!

She also never once used the term "Futurism" when she countered false ideas of placing the prophecies in the future!

She also never used the term "rapture", as in for the pre-tribulation rapture theory, even though the term existed in her day, and this false doctrine existed in her day!

She also never once stated that the Futurist ideologies inherent in modern Evangelical Churches were a result of the Jesuits creating Futurism. Yes, the Jesuits were responsible for the Oxford Tractarian Movement in England BEFORE Ellen White's ministry!

She never discussed these things, but our pioneers did!

LeRoy Froom's research in his Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers is INESCAPABLE!

Ellen White also never used the term "premillennialism", even though all Adventists were Premillennialists. She talked against a "temporal reign" on the earth, but she never once used the terms "premillennialism", "amillennialism", or "postmillennialism", although these ideologies were prominent in her day.

She also never once mentioned "Calvinism", although she did barely mention that Calvin had some wrong ideas.

The scholars today refute Calvinism, but Ellen White didn't.

[Patrick Lawrence]

Yes because Islam is of limited importance in prophecy. It is not Islam that is the antichrist. Kinda like how the Bible does not mention the Mongals that controled a huge chunk of the world for a while.

No the illumnati does not fit since it does not exist. And all of these theories and words were common in her time. She just stayed away from them. And she never implies a huge secret plot amoung them to control the world. The big plot is in the open and is Satan vs God. And the bankers and world leaders are both good and bad and do things both Got and Satan want them to do.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a proven fake with almost have of the content being taken from an earlier book. It is clearly listed in the first part of this thread.

Is D.S. Farris an Adventist?

Remember on Albert Pike I already showed you were history behind that false claim. It is all based on a forged letter he never wrote. Pike never ever mentioned the 3 world war plan it is a hoax. This is why good research is important. And research is not just reading conspiracy theory books.

The symbal matching that goes on in conspriracy theory circles always gets me. Having been a designer and artist for a very long time I understand the process that goes on. And reading the history around the design it matches that process. You want something really interesting and historic. You then draw on historic designed and symbols and use them differently. You do not have any thought to future conspiracy theories. That is unless I was designing a logo for the Adventist church. If I was I would just make it have no symbol at all and just the name. Because some one would figure out a way to make a connection to some obscure or mason or pagan symbol

Also remember the final design was not come up with by the known freemasons in the government. Not only that it took years for the different teams to finally settle on a design. Matter of fact some of the known masons came up with completly different ideas. And even more interesting is this symbol was not really adpopted by the Masons till after the dollar was designed. So I think I will stick with the official explanation given by Charles Thomson. "Reverse. The pyramid signifies Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the American cause. The date underneath is that of the Declaration of Independence and the words under it signify the beginning of the new American Æra, which commences from that date."

Next post...

Back to D.S. Farris and how much research he has done. You presume a lot about him and about me. You have not idea the amount of research in history etc I have done over my life. And you probably have very little solid information on what he has done. But I notice you like to an audio file about Pikes three world war blueprint. And the only way he can be saying that is true is if he has ... A. Not done enough research to know it is fake. B. Done the research to know it is fake but lie about it. Or C. Done the research but be so taken in by these theories every thing contradicting them is fake. ANd that makes it impossible for him to be fair and balanced.

Next post reply in next message.

[Patrick Lawrence]

I have to disagree. It is not that I am blowing it out of proportion. When you have Adventist evangalists on TV and in books etc making this a main focus of their work it IS a problem. I mean Veith in on TV around the world spouting his nonsense about Islam. That is a huge problem.

No Walter Veith does have a lot of problems in the way he does things. And yes his most controversa stuff he does kinda put as an open question. But only after trying to push the false information about it. He is doing lots of damage.

No I do not think it will be a world conspiracy at the end of time. Ellen White talks about it the other way around. It will be the common people pushing the government to make the Sunday law etc. We do not need conspiracy theories. All of the events can be explained by things in the open. As you read more and more about history and learn about the men you can see their beliefs and goals. And these perfectly explain the events that happened.

Next post...

The difference is she never talked in other terms about the evil jewish bankers running the world and the illumanati etc. She does talk about the catholic churches idea they are the one with God given power on earth. And basic history of what Jesuits have done. But read how she does this then compare it with Veith etc. It is very very very different.

As for the Jesuits creating futurism it is never really as cut and dried as presented. Yes Francisco Ribera was a key player. No not all of the ideas started with him. And there were a lot of reasons why the later protestants adopted these false views. And none of this is hidden it just part of history. That is why you have The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers that relies on historical sources not conspiracy theory books. And that is why is is not filled with talk of say evil jewish bankers etc.

As for the Adventist pioneers some of then had some false beliefs that did not agree with Ellen White. For example on the trinity.

[Lysimachus]

The Illuminati does not exist?

You obviously haven't spoken to Mark Clemenson. I know the guy PERSONALLY! He is a good friend of mine, and we not only have met in person several times, but I also talk to him over the phone. He told me his whole experience, of how he was a member of the Illuminaiti. He told me ALL the details of how he was raised inside the secret society, and how he was delivered from that system.

He told me all the rituals that he was forced to go through.

He is a Seventh-Day Adventist today.

Patrick, you truly are Naive! You can disagree, but you are disagreeing WRONGFULLY!

[Guest]

The Illuminati does not exist?

Of course they exist.

[Dr. Rich]

Marcos, yep, I totally agree with you on this issue as I too have a 'personal contact' who was brought up and trained to be 'one of them' but has since become an Adventist after being a spy within the SDA church and a reader at the Vatican with a 180 IQ and can read anything upside down and knows over 14 different languages! He was forced to 'retire' in Central America (somewhere I can't say) and when I visited him he had actual proof of all of the things he told me. (He wouldn't tell me at first because he worried I would get into trouble--and he was right as what I learned cost me 10 months in prison). So, it's serious stuff here (this issue) and I don't think people have any idea what is really going on right now!

I would love to have tea with your 'contact' some day!

[Guest]

I would love to have tea with your 'contact' some day!

He's an adventist Rich. He don't drink tea. :)

[Lysimachus]

Yes because Islam is of limited importance in prophecy. It is not Islam that is the antichrist. Kinda like how the Bible does not mention the Mongals that controled a huge chunk of the world for a while.

[Lysimachus]

When Patrick said the Illuminati does not exist, he has gone too far now for me to take his words seriously.

[Lysimachus]

I have to disagree. It is not that I am blowing it out of proportion. When you have Adventist evangalists on TV and in books etc making this a main focus of their work it IS a problem. I mean Veith in on TV around the world spouting his nonsense about Islam. That is a huge problem.

[Dr. Rich]

While we may not agree on EGW or Paul, we do agree on this issue. It was les than 6 years ago when I learned of the problems with Paul and EGW, so some things take more time to research to establish a real opinion.

Yes, the New World Order is well on it's way and I believe that the first beast in Rev. 13 fits it to a tee! As for Islam (and all of the other Eastern Religions), it is also my opinion that they could be the power, both political and religious, of the South (King of the South) as found in Daniel 11. The opposite is the now forming union of Christians, along with Catholics and Jews as the 'King of the North'. But that's just an opinion as I am still studying this.

And yes, 'it' is called the illuminati, not because it is a corporate group or anything, but because they believe they are the 'blue bloods', the downline of the thrown of David and are still God's chosen ones. Of course the opposite is true, their god is Satan. And no, it's not a conspiracy as it's really well known by many people now as they don't even try to hide it, much the same as the 'Bilderburgers'.

Albert Pike??? He was the real thing my friends! I have his book. And no, you don't want to go there either. Abd will the real George Washington stand please???

[Patrick Lawrence]

Hey Lysimachus thanks for the response. And every one else also.

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Don't be so sure of this. Islam may very well play a role as being the King of the South in Daniel 11:40-45. I find Tim Roosenber'gs discoveries on this fascinating, and his views are even being permitted to be taught in the SDA Church by the General Conference (which is surprising, as they are not much of a help usually). Even Dr. Roy Gane holds this position.

At the moment it still fits into speculation. If you look at SDA history the same kinda thing happened around WW1 and WW2 where they started working to hard to make current threats fit in to prophecy.

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You have no proof that they do not exist. The Illuminati is not an organization. Mark Cleminson told me how it works. He said you are not going to find such an organization, because the Illuminati is an "ideology", a "frame of thought" that is taught in numerous organizations. That's why you can't find such an organization as the "Illuminati".

History shows they do not exist. The burden of proof is there for on you to prove history wrong.

As for Mark Cleminson might I suggest the first thing to do with some one with amazing claims is to check them out?

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You ou obviously don't understand the issue. Of course they were proven to be a fake. That doesn't mean that the Jesuits didn't USE these protocols!

If you want to learn something, and understand WHAT the issues are concerning The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion are, read this paper:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter11.pdf

Have you ever noticed you are just always refering back to conspriacy theory people. Why not refer to documents and facts? Just because some one says something does not mean it is true.

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You bet he was. The reason I say "was" is because Dax Sean Farris passed away November, 2010 from a heart-failure. It was a sad day indeed. I'm in good touch with the Radio show host though, Mike Warren, and also the guy who helped D.S. Farris with his research, Timothy Perenich, as Master's in Church History from Andrews University. He has verified ALL the research in Dax's materials, and he would spend months and months studying at the James White Library. He says that very few people are aware of just how much of this stuff can be proven with books people never dreamed possible of accessing.

I think his view of proven is a rather loose.

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I do not believe a word of what you showed. We're not talking about a letter here, we're talking about a BOOK. There is no proof that it was a hoax. People are just trying to make it out to be a hoax, because they know that if it is not a hoax, then it exposes them for who they are.

Learn something about Albert Pike, and also continue reading that same article I gave you above:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/07/342663.shtml

Remember, if there is GOING to be a New World Order as predicted in the BIBLE, then there is NO WAY GETTING AROUND THE FACT that there are men BEHIND THE SCENES, planning the necessary procedures to accomplish this world-wide goal, and it MUST start at least 2 or more centuries prior to accomplishing it.

This is more than just plausible. It is a law--as controlling the world population is the greatest undertaking man has ever set out to accomplish.

So tracing the exact quote back to its origin is false. The word of the one you like is correct. If you will not even look at facts and research them. And you just asume they are wrong it makes it impossible for you to have a logical view of things.

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I could say the very same of you. When people dismiss conspiracies, it irritates me far more than those who get irritated by them. Whenever I smell Adventists who start putting on rose colored glasses, and they act like there are no conspiracies going on, it really irks me, because it does injustice to the Three Angels' Messages.

Patrick, you're just better off and summing up your message, and crying "peace and safety!"

No its not rose colored glasses it is an understanding of history and research. I used to believe in these theories when I was young. But many years of studing history etc has shown me what nonsense they are.

BUT that does not mean we are in for peace and safety. The real facts mean we are very far from peace and safety. But there is no need to make up outlandish conspiracy theories. The simple truth fits every thing we know about last day events.

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I've read books for the last 13 years now on these topics and I'm well familiar with these issues myself. I've learned that it all has to do with the heart, and with the glasses one chooses to wear. If your mind is set against not believing it, you will easily interpret reasons out of the books you read to conclude that there is no such evidence to support the conspiracies. It all has to do with how you choose your mind to be programmed and digest the information.

I have a feeling the majority of the books were conspiracy theory books with not a book with contradictory view. That is based on the way you accept facts not based on your world view.

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One thing is for sure, I do not want you as my partner when I'm out there preaching the Three Angel's Messages. You can be sure that you would be a hindrance to the cause. You almost sound as if though you were a Jesuit implant yourself trying to obscure our ability to detect error. There are enough conspiracies that are not just "theories", but based on sufficient deducible evidence to not discount the possibility. It is a fact, for example, that the Society of Jesus was started by Ignatius Loyola. It is fact that the Jesuits were men who have implanted themselves in governments. It is a fact that the Jesuits have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It is deducible that the Jesuits were behind the creation of a NUMBER of Secret Societies, including the Bavarian Illuminati. And although cannot be proven with 100% certainty, there is sufficient information to safely deduce that the Jesuits were behind the Gunpowder Plot in 1605 against King James I of England!

There is a prime example of the harm of conspiracy theories. Every one running around saying or suggesting others in the church are jesuits. I have a frient that sees Jesuits behind every tree. The truth is they were and are a real group. But the truth is they are not all powerful and behind every tree. So you need proof to make big claims. That just never stops the conspiracy theory people.

I also find it funny that I would be a hindrence because I do not see conspiracy theory fakes as fact.

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You're just using word games to confuse your opponents. Sounds very Jesuit. Nothing factual here, just ramblings.

I must confess Patrick, but I find it really difficult to believe that you believe Ellen White to be a prophet! Why who knows, you could even be pretending this so that you can instill more faith in your readers in what you have to say.

That was a the official explanation it was not my words. And a fact about when that symbol became common with masons. Now my fact on the timeline could be wrong. You would just need to find proof of wide spread use of the symbol amoung masons prier to the design of the dollar. As for the problem with the official explanation I am not sure what problem you have with that.

And stating information does not make me a jesuit. Again you very clearly make my case for me. These theories do harm to the 3 angels message.

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Umm...I know his brother and his friends?

OK but that does not mean you have exact knowledge of what he read. Not that it matters. Cleary from his claims he was not very string on his research at least on the conspiracy side of it.

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No proof. And I have been reading and researching history since I was 8 years old, reading volumes and volumes of books. I have done considerable unbiased research, and my conclusions force me to believe that such societies do exist, and there truly has been a pre-planned plot by the Jesuits and other allied powers for world domination--THROUGH these Secret Societies, to help bring about a New World Order. To not believe such would be to to willfully be ignorant concerning Satan's masterful deceptions being exercised throughout the ranks of men in high-places. Satan is a man of organization, and it takes careful planning and centuries of planning in order to bring about these means.

Cleary it is not unbiased you have shown that already. When confronted with contradictory facts you say you refuse to believe them. And people who do not agree with you aparently are Jesuits. Does that really sound unbaised? Might I suggest looking at the new facts on Pike's so called 3 war claim with an open mind. Better yet really trace down the quote yourself.

[Patrick Lawrence]

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I find this a very small problem. It does not deter from the main message he is presenting. He has 36 videos, and I've watched every single one of them, at least twice. Islam as having a connection with Catholicism only came into the picture in one video out of 36 of them.

That video was only a small part of his conspiracy theory false ideas.

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I think you imagine more damage in your mind than there really is being made. I've had nothing but success with his series with new people, and it is a result of his series that they became converted to Adventism.

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I've tried other series, and didn't have much success in winning people to Adventism.

I have seen many thing work bringing people in. Some were good and some were bad. But here is the problem with Veith's stuff. First many people with reject the message because of the conspiracy theories. Secone the ones that do come in because of them have a problem. That is a large part of what they believe is based on lies and fakes. This is not building a solid foundation. Not to mention all of the other problems like seeing Jesuits behind every tree. Like you accusing me of being one. Or my friends accusing every one in the church who does not agree with them of being one. I could go on with the negatives but I covered it already I think.

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Depends on how you define "conspiracy".

M-W.com's dictionary definition:

"1. the act of conspiring together

2. an agreement among conspirators"

The way it is used by the conspiracy theorists and understood by msot is this way... "an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy

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No doubt there are men in high-places conspiring of how to bring about a New World Order. Don't pretend that our presidents have used this term dozens of times.

Don't believe me, watch this video produced by Alex Jones:

The problem is what they mean and you mean is not the same. Just like what Ahmadinejad means when he recently called for a new world order does not mean the same as when Bush does. Kinda like when we say crusade it does not mean the same as what it means to a Muslim. http://presstv.com/detail/224457.html

Alex Jones as a source makes sense sadly.

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She had a lot less information to derive her conclusions from either, and relied heavily on inspiration. Much data has surfaced since then, and although existent in her day, the pioneers had limited access to some of the best sources. The sources we can access now the pioneers of her day would have only dreamed of having.

These were well known theories in her day. They information was easy to find. It was not a lack of information.

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Much of the information that Veith provides supplements and reinforces what Ellen White has told us.

I know I have read all of the quotes and more. She uses secret societs 55 times. But notice she talk about it like unions and in relation to unions. Except about 1 third as many times.

What Veith does is not complementing her work it is harming it. He ignores facts and has sloppy research and makes 100% false claims over and over and over again. And he ties it all in with the 3 angels message. This error being combined with truth is a bad thing.

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Seems like Patrick doesn't even know what Ellen Whit says!

You again asume to much. I have read all her work. And know the quotes. And I am in the middle of attempting to get my church to read through the entire testimonies series since many Adventists have not read it. Again this does not seem like an unbaised attitude.

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Once again, you are ignorant concerning the issues. I have done far more research on Jesuit Futurism than you ever have, this I guarantee. This is precisely what my book is about. To learn the issues of why the Jesuits were responsible concerning the repackaging and concoction of Futurism, by deriving these outdated sources from the Church Fathers who elaborated pagan myths embedded in the Psuedepigrapha writings from the Alexandrian intertestimental period, read my article here: The Origins of Dispensational Futurism.

There is a problem with your claim. You have already clearly shown you refuse to even entertain the idea your ideas are wrong in regard to Pike and other things. So you have clearly shown your study is not unbiased. You have also shown you can not see the problems with the study of people like Veith. This suggests that any study you do do is like Veith and others. That is you have an idea you believe cant be wrong. You there for go and try and dig out things to support this idea. But you do not do a study to prove the idea true or false. You do not to the hard research really tracing down the claims and origins of ideas and facts. I have to believe this because of the things you have stated. And the complete and utter failer to see the problems with the methods of Veith and others. And that has nothing to do wit if you believe the theories. But just the working methods are sloppy.

Any way I know this sounds harsh but I really do not mean it to be. In real life person to person you can tell people things like this but they know you are doing it as a friend. But that is hard to get across on a forum. So I do wish you the best. But I also wish you had a more balanced view of these theories. And a would more carefully way the sources.

[Patrick Lawrence]

No one said Pike was not a real person. Its the 3 world war claim that is the problem. Here is a run down to save me a LOT of typing. http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Articles/Pike-Mazzini_Three-World-Wars.htm

[almetcalf]

This is an old thread but I guess I thought I would still put my 2 cents in for anyone stumbling on this like I did. If we have WW3 and it involves Iran then I guess we could safely say there was something to this whole Pike vision thing. Doesn't matter who said what at that point. What will matter is that people HAVE been saying this for YEARS. That means somebody made it happen if it happens. And the way it is looking we certainly are headed to war.

[Gibs]

In most cases the official version of things will finally be proven the conspiracy theory. The evil ones are running the world and is almost now taken over and Satan is soon to be allowed to make a physical appearance in a body and I believe most here know it will be an impersonation of Jesus Christ. Very near future, yes I am sure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Yep.

[phkrause]

Thought I'd bring this back to life!!

7 Celebrities Supposedly In the Illuminati

A Secret Society

These celebrities have had a tremendous amount of influence and power but not without many questioning their rise to fame. Some believe there are clues and symbols throughout their music, album art, performances, even attire that point to them being a part of a modern day secret society known as the Illuminati, with ancient roots, believed to consist of powerful, elite individuals with a mission to control the world and create a New World Order. It is also believed that members have to make a blood sacrifice to gain fame and reach higher rank and the lives of those who fail to comply end in fatal deaths. While this group includes politicians and financial moguls, it is thought to be especially influential in the entertainment industry because of the power that music has to be delivered to the masses. You may have seen them using certain symbols to identify each other including the triangle, which represents the Devil’s all seeing-eye, goat heads and unicorns. These subtle symbols may not look like much to the average person, but are believed to be sacred to the members involved and if commonly digested have great power over the people who are exposed to them. Here are seven celebrities that are commonly believed to be in the Illuminati.

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Galleries/7-Celebrities-Supposedly-In-the-Illuminati.aspx