The Last Days - and the cons

[Woody]

Ellen White makes it clear that the cons will retard God's work in the last days. I fear we have arrived.

Quote:

"The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith."--5T 463

[phkrause]

"the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work,"

Now that is a most interesting comment, by a most conservative prophet. How do you see this? As being political or religious? "conservative" comment. Having said that, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get this to be a political discussion at all. I'm just curious what she intended here. Because from what I've gather over these threads is many seen to think that if you are a political conservative than you are a religious conservative also. I don't happen to agree. I believe all are conservative and liberal in many different facets of life. We can be conservative and liberal in different areas of religion, how we use and spent our money, how we eat, etc. That's one reason that I don't like these labels at all. but they are here to stay I've been told. Anyway that's just a thought I had, Woody, about that statement of EGWs.

[miz3]

"the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work,"

Now that is a most interesting comment, by a most conservative prophet. How do you see this? As being political or religious? "conservative" comment. Having said that, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get this to be a political discussion at all. I'm just curious what she intended here. Because from what I've gather over these threads is many seen to think that if you are a political conservative than you are a religious conservative also. I don't happen to agree. I believe all are conservative and liberal in many different facets of life. We can be conservative and liberal in different areas of religion, how we use and spent our money, how we eat, etc. That's one reason that I don't like these labels at all. but they are here to stay I've been told. Anyway that's just a thought I had woody about that statement of EGWs.

I must agree agree that this is most interesting comment by the SDA Church .org Prophet.

I also agree that people are mostly "conservative"/"liberal" etc. depending on the "thing". Like you said most of are a mixed bag in this regard.

However, as Ellen White's comment by "conservative" I would say these people are the "died in the wool" SDA Church .org persons. Whatever the SDA Church .org is that is what they are especially as it relates to the past (before WWII).

[Gibs]

Woody, Woody, it isn't your belief system that is having and will have "fierce opposition", It's just the opposite. The rampant belief system that has taken Christianity by storm is what you hold to and advocate and will and is a part of the pounding system of beating up on em.

I can't see how you can use EGW as an accomplice. Her theology on salvation will be the one beaten down, works, works, no one can overcome! Well,!

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891." {TDG 175.2}

You'll have to toss her out of your guidlines I do believe.

That my friend is the view that is being slandered and made of non effect.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

This is not the only negative statement she has to say about the religiously conservative. In fact she has very little positive to say about them. She characterized the pharisees in that class and observed that the pharisees thought Jesus to be far too liberal.

Before anyone makes the leap into the void let me disabuse those who try to rationalize this by suggesting those words had a different meaning in her day. The words essential meaning has not changed. I checked the Oxford English dictionary to be sure.

The essential characteristic are traditionalism, narrowness and rigidity of views and opposition to change, progress, anything new or different. Inherent to those characteristics is an attitude of being unteachable.

EGW is commonly misperceived as being conservative since her views are now our old familiar tradition and quite unchangeable since she is dead. But in her lifetime she was far from being conservative. She was an agent of great change and progress, willingly adapting and changing as needed. She was very open to learning new and considering things different form the old established order of things. Indeed, much confusion about her results from comparing her early views with what she wrote later which give evidence of a decided change in her own views on some topics. Had she and the other early founders of the Adventist Church not been, all of her followers have continued to be Methodist, Baptists, etc. and the seventh day Sabbath would not have been accepted along with our other distinctive beliefs.

[Gibs]

Tom,

I must disagree, as time went on she got stronger and stronger on all being overcomers and the implanting of the "DIVINE NATURE" or Christ in you and she took up on Paul's statement there very often. The "righteousness by faith" message got more refined to that principle the further down the years until she died.

We don't need her statements on this as Jesus's own and Paul's and all the Apostles were in harmony on being overcomers. Jesus makes it clear all must be overcomers.

Six of the following were made by Jesus,

overcometh. 1Jo 5:5; 2:13-17; 4:4; Joh 16:33; Ro 8:35-37; 1Co 15:57; Re 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12; 12:11; 15:2

The mystery revealed to the Gentiles by Paul, is how we are overcomers and then the verse I use as my signature verse, "have overcome"

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

IN the end days - our prophet's message of Salvation by Faith - will be challenged more and more. They will distort and polute her message to actually mean just the opposite of what she proclaimed.

Oh the Devil is alive and well. ANd during these last days his influence even in our church will be strong.

Lord come quickly.

[Woody]

Quote:

They make impressions upon other minds that have not a knowledge of the real workings of evil or the positive workings of the Spirit of God. Therefore, they call good evil, and evil good. {18MR 327.1}

[ClubV12]

There is a "work" the church has failed to do.

WHAT is our "work"? Delivering the message's and warnings that have been given to the Seventh-day Adventist church, to the world.

WHAT are the warnings, the messages?

The three angels message's and warnings.

ONE aspect of the THIRD angels message is, as Sister White directly states, is "righteousness by faith". From that we get a glimpse that the three angels message's are much deeper and more encompassing that a simple (superficial) reading of scripture at first reveals.

Some aspects of the "work" have failed, to some degree. That part of the work that has failed, will have to be done under the most trying of circumstances.

WHY has the "work" given us "failed"?

Because of "conformity to the world", this has "silenced" the message(s), the warnings.

WHAT will be the result?

One result is that we will have to work under the most trying of circumstances to finish the work. Another result is that those Adventists who are living a lifestyle of "superficial conservative" will hinder the work in a more profound way. They may not literally "leave the church", many will stay in the church and "fight against" the straight testimony. The straight testimony is what leads to the shaking! Laodecia comes to mind, as a definition of "superficial conservatives". It can certainly be said of Adventists that as a group, they are conservative Christians. They don't smoke, drink, are vegetarians, etc. They are, for the most part, good Christians. Some are "superficial conservatives", living up to the acceptable standards of being a "good Adventist" while also "conforming to the world" when it is needful or desirable. Neither hot nor cold, but "superficial".

Those who will actively and whole heartidly engage in the work of delivering to the world the final warnings and messages will have to deal with several problems:

1. It will become more and more problematic to deliver the message. Peoples hearts will be hardened. They will actively fight against the warnings. Economic collapse and world conditions will make it even more difficult. Persecution will steadily increase.

2. When the "straight testimony" is given (warnings to the church and the world) it will cause a shaking. Those superficial conservatives will fight against the church from within. They will join with the "world" in condeming those who are giving the straight testimony.

3. The message of righteousness by faith will be misunderstood. Some will reject it in favor of works, as was the case in 1888. Others will accept it in a spirit of they have no obligations to the "law" at all. Either way, the message will be lost.

[Woody]

I prefer to accept the straight testimony of our prophet for these the last days. And that message - the one that during the last days will be poluted - is SALVATION BY FAITH.

[ClubV12]

Thats one aspect of the "warnings" the church has been given as our "work".

But your comment raises another important question: What IS the "straight testimony" that will lead to the shaking?

[Gibs]

Where has our experience come to? Has it come to this point EGW speaks of, those of you who claim she don't hold to the law being of any obligation,

" We are living in the most solemn period of the world's history. The coming of the Lord is at the doors, and the perils of the last days are all around us. Said Jesus, speaking of this very time, "There shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." And if we are wise we shall give earnest heed to this warning, and try every man's words by the great standard of truth. Our lives must be brought into harmony with the law of God, if we would be truly sanctified. This law is to govern all intelligences in Heaven and upon earth. And when we can say from the heart, as did our divine Lord, "I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, thy law is within my heart," then we are sanctified through the truth. We have the mind that was in Christ, and by faith we have drawn vital force from the source of infinite power and purity." {ST, April 13, 1888 par. 13}

That dear friends is Christ in you the Hope of Glory,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Clearly the conservatives need to be on fire - white hot conservatives and not in-name-only conservatives who are still at some level compromising with the world.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Liberal bible bending condemned

Quote:

The position that it is of no consequence what men believe is one of Satan’s most successful deceptions. He knows that the truth, received in the love of it, sanctifies the soul of the receiver; therefore he is constantly seeking to substitute false theories, fables, another gospel. From the beginning the servants of God have contended against false teachers, not merely as vicious men, but as inculcators of falsehoods that were fatal to the soul. Elijah, Jeremiah, Paul, firmly and fearlessly opposed those who were turning men from the word of God. That liberality which regards a correct religious faith as unimportant found no favor with these holy defenders of the truth. {GC 520.2}

The vague and fanciful interpretations of Scripture, and the many conflicting theories concerning religious faith, that are found in the Christian world are the work of our great adversary to confuse minds so that they shall not discern the truth. And the discord and division which exist among the churches of Christendom are in a great measure due to the prevailing custom of wresting the Scriptures to support a favorite theory. Instead of carefully studying God’s word with humility of heart to obtain a knowledge of His will, many seek only to discover something odd or original. {GC 520.3}

In order to sustain erroneous doctrines or unchristian practices, some will seize upon passages of Scripture separated from the context, perhaps quoting half of a single verse as proving their point, when the remaining portion would show the meaning to be quite the opposite. With the cunning of the serpent they entrench themselves behind disconnected utterances construed to suit their carnal desires. Thus do many willfully pervert the word of God. Others, who have an active imagination, seize upon the figures and symbols of Holy Writ, interpret them to suit their fancy, with little regard to the testimony of Scripture as its own interpreter, and then they present their vagaries as the teachings of the Bible. {GC 521.1}

Whenever the study of the Scriptures is entered upon without a prayerful, humble, teachable spirit, the plainest and simplest as well as the most difficult passages will be wrested from their true meaning. The papal leaders select such portions of Scripture as best serve their purpose, interpret to suit themselves, and then present these to the people, while they deny them the privilege of studying the Bible and understanding its sacred truths for themselves. The whole Bible should be given to the people just as it reads. It would be better for them not to have Bible instruction at all than to have the teaching of the Scriptures thus grossly misrepresented. {GC 521.2}

"By the cry liberality" many errors coming into the church -

Quote:

By the cry, Liberality, men are blinded to the devices of their adversary, while he is all the time working steadily for the accomplishment of his object. As he succeeds in supplanting the Bible by human speculations, the law of God is set aside, and the churches are under the bondage of sin while they claim to be free. {GC 522.1}

To many, scientific research has become a curse. God has permitted a flood of light to be poured upon the world in discoveries in science and art; but even the greatest minds, if not guided by the word of God in their research, become bewildered in their attempts to investigate the relations of science and revelation.{GC 522.2}

Human knowledge of both material and spiritual things is partial and imperfect; therefore many are unable to harmonize their views of science with Scripture statements. Many accept mere theories and speculations as scientific facts, and they think that God’s word is to be tested by the teachings of “science falsely so called.”1 Timothy 6:20. The Creator and His works are beyond their comprehension; and because they cannot explain these by natural laws, Bible history is regarded as unreliable. Those who doubt the reliability of the records of the Old and New Testaments too often go a step further and doubt the existence of God and attribute infinite power to nature. Having let go their anchor, they are left to beat about upon the rocks of infidelity. {GC 522.3}

Thus many err from the faith and are seduced by the devil. Men have endeavored to be wiser than their Creator; human philosophy has attempted to search out and explain mysteries which will never be revealed through the eternal ages. If men would but search and understand what God had made known of Himself and His purposes, they would obtain such a view of the glory, majesty, and power of Jehovah that they would realize their own littleness and would be content with that which has been revealed for themselves and their children. {GC 522.4}

[Woody]

Quote:

There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what. {CW 39.1}

I have been shown that many who profess to have a knowledge of present truth, know not what they believe.

[Gibs]

Thats one aspect of the "warnings" the church has been given as our "work".

But your comment raises another important question: What IS the "straight testimony" that will lead to the shaking?

A very good question here on this subject and I like EGW's words on this,

The Straight Testimony Produces a Shaking

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857).

There are those among us who will make confessions, as did Achan, too late to save themselves. . . . They are not in harmony with right. They despise the straight testimony that reaches the heart, and would rejoice to see everyone silenced who gives reproof.--3T 272 (1873).

The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904). {LDE 176.1}

It's to the lukewarm, who are not Hot or Cold.

They are on their "lees" satisfied with themselves but are found wanting, wanting, needing to surrender all, die the death of self and Hot in a new creature from above. Fully repented and Born again.

No one needs to be of the Laodicean church, we choose the one we will be part of!

Is this not the "new age theology" look at salvation the whole of worldly Christianity has fallen into?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"It's to the lukewarm, who are not Hot or Cold."

I concur, this is the group I believe Ellen White is referring to as "superficial conservatives". Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof.

[olger]

"Sin forsaken is one of the best evidences of sin forgiven” (John Piper).

[Neil D]

I see a lot of those comments that slowly change the tenor of the origional post....to the point that the conservative superfical christian who doesn't allow the Gospel to penetrate all thier views and change them, now became the liberal Gospel changing, and superfical person is now the wolf in sheeps clothing...interesting...

With a head nod to Robert, let me post this-

"Many give a bare assent to truth when they are not sanctified through the truth. They do not in Spirit represent Christ. They are surface workers, and delude themselves with the idea that they are Christians. So effectually does this delusion take possession of heart and mind that the sharp arrows of the Lord fail to penetrate the armor of self righteousness in which they are encased. The spell is so strong that they will listen to the truth, the most earnest and powerful, even to the very portraying of the delusions which are upon them without any thought of self-examination to see if it means them. This is the class our Saviour found most difficult to arouse. The most authoritative teachings were heard and listened to as if they heard not. Thus it is with many, many in this generation." 1888, p. 796.

Now, for the hard question....How do you know if you are sanctified thru the truth? Every person on this board, responding to this, is assumed to be a Christian [because this post is directed at the Christian], but how do you know that by self-examination you are being sanctified?

Isn't also true, "The heart is deceitfully wicked. Who can know it?"

[Woody]

we need to understand the Straight Testimony of Truth. There are so many perversions. We need Present Truth for time is short. White seems black and black seems White. The Devil is so active in deceptions. His greatest tool is to polute our understanding of Salvation by Faith. This is the end time message for our church according to the SOP.

[Gibs]

Ah but Hamilton, that is one of the weaknesses of the last days that things would get off track and not seen but by few. It's history being repeated.

In response to your question, it is a growing thing and EGW may say it maybe better than I could at least more will hear her than me,

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. {AG 146.3}

The truth is no truth to the one who does not reveal, by his elevated spiritual character, a power beyond that which the world can give, and influence corresponding in its sacred, peculiar character to the truth itself. He who is sanctified by the truth will exert a saving, vital influence upon all with whom he comes in contact. This is Bible religion. {AG 146.4}

We need constantly a fresh revelation of Christ, a daily experience that harmonizes with His teachings. High and holy attainments are within our reach. Continual progress in knowledge and virtue is God's purpose for us. His law is the echo of His own voice, giving to all the invitation, "Come up higher. Be holy, holier still." Every day we may advance in perfection of Christian character." {AG 146.5} Book, Amazing Grace.

I agree a lot of posts get off the original tenure, topic, and I think it is up to that author to bring it back if he desires, I know I do, but if I don't mind where it is going, I let it go.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

The conservatives are hindering a work alright of trying to keep the whole of Christianity from getting off that narrow way onto the broad road the world of Christianity loves.

The proof is in the pudding, if it is the way the liberals advocate it would be but the few taking it. But it is the opposite. Think about it, are the majority the ones jesus is speaking of when He states,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lu 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Notice Luke even states "strive", and man the liberals don't want that word in their theology.

Ya don'ts follow the majority, they are the blind guides that have pulled most off into that ditch of worldly love, it's easy greasy baby. Don't think it's to where ya wants to go is the problem.

The right road and only road is the one between the two ditchs, one ditch of "liberalism, the other ditch of "legalism" on the opposite side.

You are the driver, keep it out of either of them ditches!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

In this post on this thread we consider the case of the bible-bending liberal - and find that "yes" Ellen White addresses that problem - that was also present in her day.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post520786

And in this post - Hamilton does find a weakness that can be found among conservatives -

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post520958

The solution is not in ignoring one or the other of these warnings.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

I don't mind standing up and declaring that I am Sanctified. I know so without a doubt. ANd no one can tell me any differently.

The sacrifice of Jesus did it for me once and for all -

Quote:

Heb.10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

[ClubV12]

I would assume you mean justified Woody?

The beauty of righteousness by faith is that we can, are, justified the moment we come to the Saviour with a repentant heart. That is when sanctification begins. It may begin anew, or every day, even every moment. Some may disagree, and I'm OK with that, but I see "justification" as being an almost continual process that paralells the sanctification process. One, in an instant, the other, over time.

That sanctification thing, the development of a character like His, will take a lifetime.