The Last Days - and the cons

[Woody]

I'll stick with what scripture says.

[BobRyan]

Me too.

"It is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified...on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL JUDGE the secrets of all mankind" Romans 2:13-16 -- all done in true "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7 - fashion.

There is a future justification for the saints that will happen in the I.J. when their names come up.

There is also a past justification that happened to the lost when they became born-again saints "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" Romans 5:1.

I prefer to stick with ALL of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Uh,,, I too would like to stick with what scripture says. I don't recall the verse that says were sanctified in a moment. What verse is that?

[Woody]

If you are not currently sanctified - then I doubt you would be able to discern it.

Please do commit to a study of this good topic though.

[John317]

(quoting EGW):... And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith."--5T 463

What does Ellen White mean by "conservative"? Does she mean the same that people mean today when they refer to "conservatives" vs. "liberals"?

Let's look at the uses of "conservative" in Ellen White's writings:

There are those who will, through hasty, unadvised moves, betray the cause of God into the enemy’s power. There will be people who will seek to be revenged, who will become apostates and betray Christ in the person of His saints. All need to learn discretion; then there is danger on the other hand of being conservative, of giving away to the enemy in concession. Our brethren and sisters should be very cautious in this matter for the honor of God. . . . The two armies will stand distinct and separate, and this distinction will be so marked that many who shall be convinced of truth will come on the side of God’s commandment-keeping people.—Manuscript 6, 1889. {CTr 329.5}

When God raises up men to do His work, they are false to their trust if they allow their testimony to be shaped to please the minds of the unconsecrated. He will prepare men for the times. They will be humble, God-fearing men, not conservative, not policy men; but men who have moral independence and will move forward in the fear of the Lord. They will be kind, noble, courteous, yet they will not be swayed from the right path, but will proclaim the truth in righteousness whether men will hear or whether they will forbear.--Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 262-263. {ChL 73.3}

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463. {ChS 158.1}

A Sign of Growth.--Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end. But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion. {CW 38.3}

The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God's people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what. {CW 38, 39}

The English reformers, while renouncing the doctrines of Romanism, had retained many of its forms. Thus though the authority and the creed of Rome were rejected, not a few of her customs and ceremonies were incorporated into the worship of the Church of England. It was claimed that these things were not matters of conscience; that though they were not commanded in Scripture, and hence were non-essential, yet not being forbidden, they were not intrinsically evil. Their observance tended to narrow the gulf which separated the reformed churches from Rome, and it was urged that they would promote the acceptance of the Protestant faith by Romanists. {GC88 289.1}

To the conservative and compromising, these arguments seemed conclusive. But there was another class that did not so judge. The fact that these customs tended to bridge the chasm between Rome and the Reformation, was in their view a conclusive argument against retaining them. They looked upon them as badges of the slavery from which they had been delivered, and to which they had no disposition to return. They reasoned that God has in his Word established the regulations governing his worship, and that men are not at liberty to add to these or to detract from them. The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what he had explicitly enjoined. {GC88 289.2}

Superficial Believers Will Renounce the Faith

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative [ELLEN WHITE IS NOT HERE DISTINGUISHING THEOLOGICAL CONSERVATIVES FROM THEIR LIBERAL COUNTERPARTS; SHE IS DESCRIBING THOSE WHO PUT "WORLDLY CONFORMITY" FIRST AND GOD'S CAUSE SECOND.] class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith.--5T 463 (1885). {LDE 174.3}

If Satan sees that the Lord is blessing His people and preparing them to discern his delusions, he will work with his master power to bring in fanaticism on the one hand and cold formalism on the other, that he may gather in a harvest of souls.--2SM 19 (1890). {LDE 174.4}

Those who have had privileges and opportunities to become intelligent in regard to the truth and yet who continue to counterwork the work God would have accomplished will be purged out, for God accepts the service of no man whose interest is divided.--Ms 64, 1898. {LDE 174, 175}

Morality Inseparable from Religion

Morality cannot be separated from religion. Conservative tradition received from educated men and from the writings of great men of the past are not all a safe guide for us in these last days; for the great struggle before us is such as the world has never seen. The brethren who have not acted a part in this work in the past need to move with far greater caution in regard to that which they accept and that which they refuse; they need to penetrate much deeper than their limited spiritual knowledge or their present habits or opinions would lead them to do. All these may need reforming. {MM 99.1}

We are not one of us safe, even with past experience in the work, and certainly are not safe if we have not had that experience, unless we live as seeing Him who is invisible. Daily, hourly, we must be actuated by the principles of Bible truth--righteousness, mercy, and the love of God. He who would have moral and intellectual power must draw from the divine Source. At every point and decision inquire, Is this the way of the Lord? {MM 99.2}

With your Bibles open before you consult sanctified reason and a good conscience. Your heart must be moved, your soul touched, your reason and intellect awakened, by the Spirit of God; the holy principles laid down in His word will give light to the soul. I tell you, my brethren, our true source of wisdom and virtue and power is in the cross of Calvary. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He says, "Without Me ye can do nothing." Jesus is the only sure guarantee for intellectual success and advancement.--MS. 16, 1890. {MM 99.3}

Continued

[John317]

Ellen White's use of "conservative"--

Continued

Presidents may become too conservative and narrow in their leadership.--Elder M, as president of the _____ Conference, you have shown by your general management that you are unworthy of the trust reposed in you. You have shown that you are conservative, and that your ideas are narrow. You have not done one half what you might have done had you had the true spirit of the work. You might have been far more capable and experienced than you now are; you might have been far better prepared to manage successfully this sacred and important mission a work which would have given you the strongest claim to the general confidence of our people. But, like the other ministering brethren in your state, you have failed to advance with the opening providence of God; you have not shown that the Holy Spirit was deeply impressing your heart, so that God could speak through you to His people. If in this crisis you do anything to strengthen doubt and distrust in the churches of your state, anything that will prevent the people from engaging heartily in this work, God will hold you responsible. Has God given you unmistakable evidence that the brethren of your state are excused from the responsibility of putting their arms about the city of _____ as Christ has put His arms about them? If you were standing in the light, you would encourage this mission by your faith.--5T 370. {PaM 106.1}

There are those who will, through hasty, ill-advised moves, betray the cause of God into the enemy's power. There will be men who will seek to be revenged, who will become apostates and betray Christ in the person of His saints. All need to learn discretion; then there is danger on the other hand of being conservative, of giving away to the enemy in concessions. . . . {3SM 397.2}

Anything we may do that lifts up the spurious to take the place of the true and genuine Sabbath, is disloyal to God, and we must move very carefully, lest we exalt the decisions of the man of sin. We are not to be found in a neutral position on this matter of so great consequence. . . . {3SM 397.3}

The great work of reform must go forward. The Health Institute has been established at Battle Creek to relieve the afflicted, to disseminate light, to awaken the spirit of inquiry, and to advance reform. This institution is conducted upon principles which are different from those of any other hygienic institution in the land. Money is not the great object with its friends and conductors. They conduct it from a conscientious, religious standpoint, aiming to carry out the principles of Bible hygiene. Most institutions of the kind are established upon different principles and are conservative, making it their object to meet the popular class halfway and to so shape their course that they will receive the greatest patronage and the most money. {3 T 165}

I saw you listening to the conversation of men and women, and saw that you were only too pleased to gather up their views and impressions that were detrimental to our labors. Some found fault with one thing, and some with another, as did the murmurers among the children of Israel when Moses was their leader. Some were censuring our course, saying that we were not as conservative as we ought to be; we did not seek to please the people as we might; we talked too plainly; we reproved too sharply. Some were talking in regard to Sister White's dress, picking at straws. Others were expressing dissatisfaction with the course that Brother White pursued, and remarks were passing from one to another, questioning their course and finding fault. An angel stood before these persons, unseen by them, busily writing their words in the book which is to be opened to the view of God and angels. {3T 312.3}

Some are eagerly watching for something to condemn in Brother and Sister White, who have grown gray in their service in the cause of God. Some express their views that the testimony of Sister White cannot be reliable. This is all that many unconsecrated ones want. The testimonies of reproof have checked their vanity and pride; but if they dared, they would go to almost any length in fashion and pride. God will give all such an opportunity to prove themselves and to develop their true characters. {3T 312, 313}

There are some in ----- who ought to be men instead of boys and heavenly minded instead of earthly and sensual; but their spiritual vision has become obscured; the Saviour's great love has not ravished their souls. He has many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. You are children in growth and cannot comprehend the mysteries of God. When God raises up men to do His work, they are false to their trust if they allow their testimony to be shaped to please the minds of the unconsecrated. He will prepare men for the times. They will be humble, God-fearing men, not conservative, not policy men; but men who have moral independence and will move forward in the fear of the Lord. They will be kind, noble, courteous; yet they will not be swayed from the right path, but will proclaim the truth in righteousness whether men will hear or whether they will forbear. {5 T 263}

Elder M, as president of the ----- Conference, you have shown by your general management that you are unworthy of the trust reposed in you. You have shown that you are conservative, and that your ideas are narrow. You have not done one half what you might have done had you had the true spirit of the work. You might have been far more capable and experienced than you now are; you might have been far better prepared to manage successfully this sacred and important mission--a work which would have given you the strongest claim to the general confidence of our people. But, like the

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other ministering brethren in your state, you have failed to advance with the opening providence of God; you have not shown that the Holy Spirit was deeply impressing your heart, so that God could speak through you to His people. If in this crisis you do anything to strengthen doubt and distrust in the churches of your state, anything that will prevent the people from engaging heartily in this work, God will hold you responsible. Has God given you unmistakable evidence that the brethren of your state are excused from the responsibility of putting their arms about the city of ----- as Christ has put His arms about them? If you were standing in the light, you would encourage this mission by your faith. {5T 370.3}

Conservative traditions received from educated men, and from the writings of great men of the past, are not safe guides for us in these last days; for the great struggle before us is such as the world has never seen before. Those who have not acted a part in this work in the past, need to move with great caution in regard to accepting or refusing what may be presented to them as truth. They need to penetrate much deeper than their limited spiritual knowledge, or their present habits or opinions would lead them to do. We are not one of us safe unless we live as seeing Him who is invisible, even with past experience in the work; and we certainly are not safe, if we have not had that experience. Daily, hourly, we must be actuated by the principles of Bible truth,--righteousness, mercy, and the love of God. He who would have moral and intellectual power must draw from the divine source. At every point of decision inquire, "Is this the way of the Lord?" With your Bibles open before you, consult sanctified reason and a good conscience. Your heart must be moved, your soul touched, your reason and intellect awakened, by the Spirit of God; and then holy principles revealed in the word of God will give light to the soul. The true source of wisdom and virtue and power is the cross of Calvary. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. He says, "Without me ye can do nothing." {RH, February 7, 1893 par. 13}

It is the design of God that through man his glory shall be revealed to the world; but it is only those who connect themselves with God in Jesus Christ, who can reveal that goodness and that fidelity which Christ manifested in his life. As the branches of the vine are united in the parent stock, so will the children of God be united as one in Christ. They are to reveal to the world the character of God. They must study the Scriptures with the purpose in view of living the unselfish life of Christ. The true Christian will not become self-centered or conservative in his plans. "Of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace." As God's grace is given us freely, so it must be imparted to others. Through the apostle we are admonished, "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him." {RH May 30, 1899}

Those temptations are most dangerous which come from the professed servants of God, and from our friends. When persons who are uniting with the world, yet claiming great piety and love, counsel the faithful workers for God to be less zealous and more conservative, our answer must be an appeal to the word of God. When they plead for union with those who have been our determined opposers, we should fear and shun them as decidedly as did Nehemiah. Those who would lead away from the old landmarks to form a connection with the ungodly, cannot be sent of Heaven. Whatever may have been their former position, their present course tends to unsettle the faith of God's people. {ST, January 3, 1884 par. 14}

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." The seventy were appointed to go on their missionary journeys some months after the twelve had been appointed to visit the lost sheep of the house of Israel. When the twelve were sent forth, they were restricted to the tribes of Israel, lest their missionary efforts should create prejudice among the Jews, whose teaching had been of such a character as to make them narrow in their ideas in regard to the extension of the gospel to other nationalities. The disciples themselves could scarcely comprehend the fact that the blessings of God were for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, and had to unlearn many lessons that made them conservative in their views concerning the mission and work of the Messiah. But evidences were given them that prepared them to understand that the tidings of the kingdom of Christ were to be preached to all nations. Now that their sympathies were broadening, and their ideas expanding in regard to the purpose of God, Christ desired them to act out their faith before he should be removed from them, that there might be no misunderstanding in regard to the extension of the gospel. {ST, December 10, 1894 par. 1}

Great efforts have been made to secure the patronage of the wealthy. The Sanitarium has not been a success, and will not prove such, unless those who are connected with it shall give it a different mold. If this institution shall be conducted as it has been, with so little of the influence of the Holy Spirit, it will not answer the purpose of God, and will be rejected by him. It was Satan's device to lead to a great expenditure of means in building and furnishing, when there were not sufficient funds to sustain such an outlay. Those who were responsible for this heavy debt, felt that extra effort must be made to secure patients; hence a conservative spirit has come in; little by little has the transforming been going on in the Sanitarium, until the object for which it was started has been almost lost. {PH100 55.2}

We have all kinds of material to deal with. There are those who will, through hasty, unadvised moves, betray the cause of God into the enemy's power. There will be men who will seek to be revenged who will become apostates and betray Christ in the person of His saints. All need to learn discretion; then there is danger on the other hand of being conservative, of giving away to the enemy in concession. Our brethren should be very cautious in this matter for the honor of God. They should make God their fear and their dread. Should this Conference make resolutions and pass them, that it would be right and proper for Seventh-day Adventists to rest on the first day of the week in order to avoid arrests and what might probably arise if they did not obey the laws, would this be showing that we stand in right relation to God's holy law? Exodus 31:12-17. {The 1888 Materials, chapter 54}

Complete

[BobRyan]

A "conservative" in that context is one who will not come out in favor of the truth - but prefers to stick with popular traditions and ideas over less popular truths.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

The Term used here in this topic should be "legalism" vs "liberalism". The context of the meaning of "comservative" is not what I am as it don't define what tradition is followed. The beginning tradition in Adventism was legalism, then it came out of that to "righteousness by faith". Then that got refined to where I stand today, between legalism and liberalism.

All need to study the refinning of the message of righteousness by faith and it was almost to the year EGW died.

In applying "conservative" to one of Adventism you may be labeling him a legalist and he is not, when you go back very far.

EGW caught Paul's stance on "Christ in You the hope of Glory" and that became the heart of righteousness by faith, the "Divine Nature" she stated many times and death of self, repentance and being born again from above.

That is not "legalistic" or "liberalism", that is getting through that "strait" gate and staying on that narrow path and staying out of either ditch, "legalism" or "Liberalism".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.