Dealing with Catholics, and forum and facebook

[Woody]

As she matured in age, so did her writing.

She DID not say to remove the atrocities, she did talk about how to treat members today, and that we should point out what is right rather than focus on the things that were wrong.

Very good comment Stan. She was an example for all of us when we look at her growth over her years.

[BobRyan]

Ellen White never retracted her statements on the image to the beast, the mark of the beast or the Pope as an example of the 2Thess 2 "man of sin" -- to the day she died.

Neither did she ever go rushing out to Catholic friends and neighbors with the "message" that the Catholic church is the first beast of Revelation 13 and the little horn power of Dan 7 and 8.

Our worst detractors seek to take the most revealing aspects of Daniel and Revelation when it comes to the Catholic Church or the Sunday Laws - and put them out in front of our message.

Fine - let the detractors lead with that if they wish - we do not need to do it.

When I talk with serious Catholic Bible students I start out by observing the positive aspects of the RCC, or some current news item of interest to Catholics.

I will at some later point ask that we all embrace a spirit of tolerance that does not seek to "exterminate heretics" - (that is - those on the other side who may hold to different doctrinal views than we do.) I also urge that we be willing to test Christian doctrine by the Bible.

Very often - the lay people will agree to this.

But the informed RCC intelligensia usually objects at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gordon1]

EGW was less concerned with the RC system than with the spirit of intolerance which leads to persecution. And why she warned about this from within the SDA Church, and that the remnant would be little known to the Catholics. And of course she & James faced this spirit too - voiced in a dream she had, known as 'the Catholic procession' and found in 1 Testimonies p.578 if memory is right.

[miz3]

EGW was less concerned with the RC system than with the spirit of intolerance which leads to persecution. And why she warned about this from within the SDA Church, and that the remnant would be little known to the Catholics. And of course she & James faced this spirit too - voiced in a dream she had, known as 'the Catholic procession' and found in 1 Testimonies p.578 if memory is right.

You can soft-peddle what Ellen White says about the RCC/Pope and the actual hatred that simmers in the SDA Church .org even today but the Truth is what is.

The pioneers of the nineteenth-century were excellent and ardent practitioners of the Protestant Reformation and they felt they had legitimate and much reason to fear and hate the RCC/Pope. This is why you see Ellen White and the pioneers use such strong language. Almost to a person the Protestant World of that day felt the same way.

Could it be that as time went on these same ones saw how stupid their fear and hate was and that the RCC/Pope was not the satanic-evil they had believed in their youth? However they were already in too deep to fully back away from everything they had invested in the early SDA Church .org. The only course was to prepare for a more softening of the message without throwing the whole bath water out.

Unfortunately this strategy has not worked for various reasons which include the "inspirational aspects of Ellen White herself". Since the Church .org clung tenaciously to the "inspirational aspects of Ellen White" it would be awkward indeed to make any change at all in the SDA Church .org's historical view of the RCC/Pope no matter how wrong it might be.

Thus, despite efforts to soften the view they could not go far enough without endangering the "inspirational aspect of Ellen White". So we are today still stuck with the albatross of the RCC/Pope hatred and the unBiblical view that it is the "beast" and that the "mark of the beast" is 'Sunday worship'.

We are also stuck with the unBiblical doctrines of the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment/1844 mess as well.

Again thus, we as an SDA Church .org cannot really spread the true "Gospel" message about what God/Jesus Christ have actually done for humanity and as Hebrews chapter two verse three puts it "the great Salvation" that our God and Lord and Master Jesus Christ have given as a "Free Gift" to all humans without these said humans having done anything at all.

We must change to a God Centric message and leave off those ancient unBiblical human centric messages of the nineteenth-century.

[BobRyan]

There was no "hate the Pope" or "hate Catholics" ever taught by Ellen White.

The fact that she taught that the Pope, and Catholic church actions in the dark ages were wrong (in their Lateran IV "exterminate heretics and Jews" infallible statements for example, or in their other efforts to kill protesting reformers)- and that Protestant Churches were taking the wrong course in rejecting the Ten Commandments etc - is not sufficient grounds for the text-bending that says we must hate whoever is in error (or that Ellen White ever said to hate anyone in error )-- as some here have supposed.

The idea that the still-infallible teaching that RCC members were to "exterminate Jews and Heretics" (Lateran IV)- is really not so bad after all, and that Ellen White eventually warmed up to the idea in her later years instead of flatly condemning it - is a mistaken notion as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[Overaged]

am thinking that we need to speak with them in the same way we would want them to speak to us.

I like why EGW said, we should be pointing out what is right, not what is wrong. Hard to go wrong with that.

Being confrontational, even if the name of the Saviour has not worked well with them, or when people do it to us.

"Let us reason together"

[Overaged]

Quote:

Expose Fallacy by Presenting Truth.--Decided proclamations are to be made. But in regard to this line of work, I am instructed to say to our people: Be guarded. In bearing the message, make no personal thrusts at other churches, not even the Roman Catholic Church. Angels of God see in the different denominations many who can be reached only by the greatest caution. Therefore let us be careful of our words. Let not our ministers follow their own impulses in denouncing and exposing the "mysteries of iniquity." Upon these themes silence is eloquence. Many are deceived. Speak the truth in tones and words of love. Let Christ Jesus be exalted. Keep to the affirmative of truth. Never leave the straight path God has marked out, for the purpose of giving someone a thrust. That thrust may do much harm and no good. It may quench conviction in many minds. Let the Word of God, which is the truth, tell the story of the inconsistency of those in error. {Ev 576.1}

People cannot be expected to see at once the advantage

577

of the truth over the error they have cherished. The best way to expose the fallacy of error is to present the evidences of truth. This is the greatest rebuke that can be given to error. Dispel the cloud of darkness resting on minds by reflecting the bright light of the Sun of Righteousness.--Manuscript 6, 1902. {Ev 576.2}

[miz3]

There was no "hate the Pope" or "hate Catholics" ever taught by Ellen White.

The fact that she taught that the Pope, and Catholic church actions in the dark ages were wrong (in their Lateran IV "exterminate heretics and Jews" infallible statements for example, or in their other efforts to kill protesting reformers)- and that Protestant Churches were taking the wrong course in rejecting the Ten Commandments etc - is not sufficient grounds for the text-bending that says we must hate whoever is in error (or that Ellen White ever said to hate anyone in error )-- as some here have supposed.

The idea that the still-infallible teaching that RCC members were to "exterminate Jews and Heretics" (Lateran IV)- is really not so bad after all, and that Ellen White eventually warmed up to the idea in her later years instead of flatly condemning it - is a mistaken notion as well.

in Christ,

Bob

We can only judge SDA Church .org by the hateful bashing words spoken and written by the early pioneers such as Ellen White. In addition we judge by the FACT that such extreme language is not repudiated today because "repudiation" would mean taking a stand that the Prophet (Ellen White) was not really "inspired" when she wrote/spoke those hateful bashing words about the RCC/Pope in the past and what the RCC/Pope is planning in present to do in the future.

You cannot soft-pedal the conflict to today's SDA Church .org by simply denying the hateful bashing language that continues today in the SDA Church .org against the RCC/Pope.

Face it the SDA Church .org sees the RCC/Pope as the enemy because they see the RCC/Pope as the chief tool of the devil. Your stuck brother with this unBiblical doctrine.

Either you repudiate the RCC/Pope doctrine and the "inspiration" of Ellen White

OR

You live with the hate and fear that must surely be present for the RCC/Pope and the doctrine that says the RCC/Pope is the most evil of entities on the face of the earth.

Your denials will fall on deaf ears because your words/actions/attitudes will speak far louder both from the past (Ellen White/early pioneers) and the present SDA Church .org doctrine.

[Overaged]

Face it the SDA Church .org sees the RCC/Pope as the enemy because they see the RCC/Pope as the chief tool of the devil. Your stuck brother with this unBiblical doctrine.

Either you repudiate the RCC/Pope doctrine and the "inspiration" of Ellen White

OR

You live with the hate and fear that must surely be present for the RCC/Pope and the doctrine that says the RCC/Pope is the most evil of entities on the face of the earth.

Your denials will fall on deaf ears because your words/actions/attitudes will speak far louder both from the past (Ellen White/early pioneers) and the present SDA Church .org doctrine.

Not true at all. Many of the Catholics I have studied with; knowing what I believed, have always referred to me as their "favorite Protestant."

Did I miss it in your post, or did you also mention what their official teachings are about us? It's actually quite scary. If you truly seek a balanced message here, that is a very important consideration. But even knowing what they teach officially; I can't classify it as "hatred," and it's unfair to designate Adventist or any other, who has opposing beliefs as "hatred," when in fact it is not.

[miz3]

I am sorry Overaged but this not just simply, "we disagree".

The history is too replete with what can only be described as hateful, and fearful attitudes/speech by the SDA Church .org and the prophet Ellen White toward the RCC/Pope.

Your attempts to "soft-peddle" the situation is not true.

When the SDA Church .org believes that the RCC/Pope is the big tool of the devil to get the true remnant church (the SDA Church .org) how can there be anything but fear and hatred for such an entity.

You are flying in the face of reality and on its face your credibility "even as a favored protestant" does not wash.

The words of Ellen White and the pioneers is what it is and either you repudiate their attitudes/words/position in regard to the RCC/Pope or you have to be in absolute sync with them.

Which is it?

I have not seen yet that the SDA Church .org has changed its doctrine of the great satanic evil which is the beast of Revelation (the RCC/Pope) which will come after to kill, persecute, torture, exterminate, etc. etc. etc. the remnant SDA Church .org.

Either one must live a lie and put up a front that they "love" the RCC/Pope or the live the truth about what they actually believe.

Again, I ask which is it?

Your call SDA Church .org and the SDA Church .org faithful.

[Overaged]

I am sorry Overaged but this not just simply, "we disagree".

yes; you are quite correct. With some, it has gone way beyond disagreement, and it will continue to do so. ON BOTH SIDES

[Stan]

>>>I have not seen yet that the SDA Church .org has changed its doctrine of the great satanic evil which is the beast of Revelation (the RCC/Pope) which will come after to kill, persecute, torture, exterminate, etc. etc. etc. the remnant SDA Church .org.

Which of the 28 is that?

[Lysimachus]

We can only judge SDA Church .org by the hateful bashing words spoken and written by the early pioneers such as Ellen White. In addition we judge by the FACT that such extreme language is not repudiated today because "repudiation" would mean taking a stand that the Prophet (Ellen White) was not really "inspired" when she wrote/spoke those hateful bashing words about the RCC/Pope in the past and what the RCC/Pope is planning in present to do in the future.

You cannot soft-pedal the conflict to today's SDA Church .org by simply denying the hateful bashing language that continues today in the SDA Church .org against the RCC/Pope.

Face it the SDA Church .org sees the RCC/Pope as the enemy because they see the RCC/Pope as the chief tool of the devil. Your stuck brother with this unBiblical doctrine.

Either you repudiate the RCC/Pope doctrine and the "inspiration" of Ellen White

OR

You live with the hate and fear that must surely be present for the RCC/Pope and the doctrine that says the RCC/Pope is the most evil of entities on the face of the earth.

Your denials will fall on deaf ears because your words/actions/attitudes will speak far louder both from the past (Ellen White/early pioneers) and the present SDA Church .org doctrine.

Never once will you find hateful or bashing words from Ellen White against the Catholic Church or those opposed to our beliefs.

The strong language that comes from her pen, which you interpret as "hateful" or "bashing" is actually what we term "denunciation of error". She spoke strong against false ideology, and the system of the Papacy. Never once did she speak strong language against individuals composing the Papacy or the Protestant churches.

[miz3]

>>>I have not seen yet that the SDA Church .org has changed its doctrine of the great satanic evil which is the beast of Revelation (the RCC/Pope) which will come after to kill, persecute, torture, exterminate, etc. etc. etc. the remnant SDA Church .org.

Which of the 28 is that?

Whether part of the Fundamental Twenty-Eight or not, it is still solidly entrenched in the SDA Church .org DNA even to the point where little SDA Church .org children (and even some adults) have nightmares about it and the seven last plagues.

Again, denials and soft-peddling cannot erase the Truth.

SDA Church .org is stuck with this whether they like it or not, unless, they are brave enough to denounce such a culture of hate and fear as not being Biblical, including that Ellen White and our pioneers got it very wrong.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

We can only judge SDA Church .org by the hateful bashing words spoken and written by the early pioneers such as Ellen White. In addition we judge by the FACT that such extreme language is not repudiated today because "repudiation" would mean taking a stand that the Prophet (Ellen White) was not really "inspired" when she wrote/spoke those hateful bashing words about the RCC/Pope in the past and what the RCC/Pope is planning in present to do in the future.

You cannot soft-pedal the conflict to today's SDA Church .org by simply denying the hateful bashing language that continues today in the SDA Church .org against the RCC/Pope.

Face it the SDA Church .org sees the RCC/Pope as the enemy because they see the RCC/Pope as the chief tool of the devil. Your stuck brother with this unBiblical doctrine.

Either you repudiate the RCC/Pope doctrine and the "inspiration" of Ellen White

OR

You live with the hate and fear that must surely be present for the RCC/Pope and the doctrine that says the RCC/Pope is the most evil of entities on the face of the earth.

Your denials will fall on deaf ears because your words/actions/attitudes will speak far louder both from the past (Ellen White/early pioneers) and the present SDA Church .org doctrine.

Never once will you find hateful or bashing words from Ellen White against the Catholic Church or those opposed to our beliefs.

The strong language that comes from her pen, which you interpret as "hateful" or "bashing" is actually what we term "denunciation of error". She spoke strong against false ideology, and the system of the Papacy. Never once did she speak strong language against individuals composing the Papacy or the Protestant churches.

As I have said before putting a dress and lipstick on a pig does not change the FACT that it is just still a filthy dirty pig.

I am afraid that what you call "strong language" and "denunciation of error" is just a filthy pig filled with hate and bashing.

Second as we have seen on this very forum your argument about the difference between individuals and the system does not speak truth. When posts are posted on this forum denouncing the SDA Church .org, the SDA Church .org "faithful" (individuals) see that you have denounced them because they are part of the "system" and they rise up objecting.

Thus, your failed attempt to separate the individual from the system does not work because it does not exist in the real world. Very poor argument. In fact many would call what you are doing in this regard as "patronizing" and arrogant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

this post

[BobRyan]

I have not seen yet that the SDA Church .org has changed its doctrine of the great satanic evil which is the beast of Revelation (the RCC/Pope) which will come after to kill, persecute, torture, exterminate, etc.

So then you "have" or you "have not" actually read the infallible pronouncements of the RCC's Lateran IV ?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

1.There was no "hate the Pope" or "hate Catholics" ever taught by Ellen White.

The fact that she taught that the Pope, and Catholic church actions in the dark ages were wrong (in their Lateran IV "exterminate heretics and Jews" infallible statements for example, or in their other efforts to kill protesting reformers)- and that Protestant Churches were taking the wrong course in rejecting the Ten Commandments etc - is not sufficient grounds for the text-bending that says we must hate whoever is in error (or that Ellen White ever said to hate anyone in error )-- as some here have supposed.

The idea that the still-infallible teaching that RCC members were to "exterminate Jews and Heretics" (Lateran IV)- is really not so bad after all, and that Ellen White eventually warmed up to the idea in her later years instead of flatly condemning it - is a mistaken notion as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

That is a hard line for the SDA Church .org to follow given the strong and severe statements made by Ellen White herself in the "unchanged earliest versions of the Great Controversy".

It seems to me that Ellen White does not heed her own wisdom.

For once Lysimachus counter point has some validity. The messages SDA Church .org have preached for over 160 years concerning the RCC/Pope have been anything but "gentle, diplomatic, etc. etc."

Since SDA Church .org apply (erroneously in my view) the beast and the mark of the beast to the RCC/Pope and the extremely strong language of the Bible in Revelation concerning said beast and what they are and what their outcome will be, is it any wonder why the SDA Faithful have strong hateful and even fearful feelings and expressions toward the RCC/Pope?

SDa Church .org "chickens may be coming home to roost".

I was going to stay out of this, but what Miz3 wrote here needed to have a big AMEN added to it.

Having several Catholics in our 19 years of bible study has shown me how wrong EGW was about them being the wounded head. Yes, the original Romish Church was evil from the beginning and therefore could not possible be the "Babylon that has fallen" for they were never ever righteous. What gets me tho, is that Adventists still use their 'work book' as being holy and everything in it being inspiried by God. Why?

[Overaged]

There is no such thing as the "SDA Church.org"

[Woody]

There is no such thing as the "SDA Church.org"

Finally - someone has the courage to speak up and tell the Truth. Thanks OA.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

We can only judge SDA Church .org by the hateful bashing words spoken and written by the early pioneers such as Ellen White.

I am not arguing against your right to whine - I am just saying that when you make stuff up -- it will be challenged instead of getting the less accurate response "Oh well then she got over it in later years".

For now you seem content to quote from parts of the RCC Lateran IV and then innexplicably argue that any who admits that this is a Catholic document still held by the Catholic church as being infallible to this very day - must be evil.

In short you argue that to simply admit to accurate history is evil if that history does not flatter the RCC.

Certain you could not expect everyone else here to follow you in that effort.

You claim it is hateful and evil to admit to the actual acts of history regarding the RCC or to admit to the Bible statements on that very same history.

in Christ,

Bob

1. No one is whining except the SDA Church .orgs because they are being exposed and it is a bit chilly.

2. I am not making stuff up. I am citing true FACTS. It has already been admitted by the SDA Church .orgs on this forum that Ellen White used brutal language concerning the RCC/Pope. So I say to you stop making stuff up about my posts.

3. I have not ever on this thread quoted any RCC/Pope documentation. Again, you make things up. In addition I have never ever said the RCC/Pope and any of their documents were "infallible". Again, you are the one who seems content to lie about me and make stuff up about me. Are you not ashamed as a SDA Church .org to be breaking the Commandment about "false witness"? You cannot even keep the simple parts of your own precious Law.

4. I am not arguing about writings that truthfully tell the horrid story of the RCC/Pope in the past. That is not what we are talking about. Please keep up.

We are talking about the hateful things held by the SDA Church .org and Ellen White concerning the present and the future of the RCC/Pope and how they are satan's most prominent tool to destroy the SDA Church .org.

It is the present/future characterizations that we say is all bunk while SDA Church .org/their faithful hold hateful/fearful views of the RCC/Pope in the present and the future.

Can you comprehend this simple concept? "present and future RCC/Pope.

5. By the way there are no Biblical FACTs about the RCC/Pope concerning the "present and the future".

In FACT the Bible says absolutely nothing about the RCC/Pope.

Please cite Book, Chapter, Verse that actually mentions the RCC/Pope?

[Overaged]

Thanks Woody I appreciate hearing that Prolific use of this phrase has bugged me for a while now I believe it is time to speak out More to come when I am not trying to reply with Iphone Lol I hate typing with this thing

[BobRyan]

We can only judge SDA Church .org by the hateful bashing words spoken and written by the early pioneers such as Ellen White.

[miz3]

Wrong.

When we talk about the RCC we ARE talking about their actions in history as they match up with the predictions made in scripture.

And we ARE talking about their own affirmations of the work they have done.

As it turns out -- By their fruits you shall know them.

Please keep up.

As I have already posted here - I am not at all for greeting Catholics with a "Pope is the man of sin" introductory statement. But neither would I run away from the Bible statements on the subject as you suggest.

The RCC has suggested that the 2Thess 2 statement about the man of sin ultimately applies to Satan. I agree with them that in its fullest sense it is a reference to Satan impersonating Christ's second coming.

But the Catholic protesters and reformers were correct (As God points out to Ellen White) in their application of this in a secondary sense to certain religious leaders and actions in the dark ages.

The fact that the past actions of the RCC still claimed to this very day to be infallibly correct by the RCC -- are indicators of future behavior and policy "given the chance" is what you seek to hide from -- as if to "notice" those deeds and to admit to the prophetic statements God makes about them in both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White -- is "evil for miz3".

Surely you cannot expect the argument you offer to carry much weight among those who accept an objective unbiased reading of the text.

Serves me right. It is clear that your post has a hard time following clear arguments and that your posts are nothing more than a pent up shear angry rant.

Given the above it is risky for me to ask but can you show me from the Bible and Bible only without any outside stuff or human reasoning or historical data etc. etc. that the Bible and the Bible only in the clearest of language predicts what the RCC/Pope is going to do in the present and in the future?

I doubt you can do this.