Santorum says Obama is not Christian

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Ummmm. He more than doubled the killings. He made it HIS war and increased the troups instead of decreasing them.

So, yes I hold him totally responsible.

I suppose that by lying to the american people to start a war is not as troublesome as to fight so hard so as to get us out of that war...

I worry about you, Redwood...You have a skewed sense of right in the political arena...and yeah, I suppose, from your perspective, I do too...

No doubt as you keep up the "Bush" lying to start the Iraq war.

If that is so a lot of big name "revered" liberals/democrats were in the lie with him

[Bravus]

Jesus was a socialist.

Find one thing that Jesus himself said that supports capitalism.

On the other hand, he spoke about selling all you have and giving to the poor, about how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven (and by world standards, everyone posting here is rich), and so on.

*Plenty* of His words support letting go of wealth to seek spiritual things. *None* of them promote grasping material things.

Prove me wrong from the words of Jesus.

[Woody]

Quote:

Prove me wrong from the words of Jesus.

R U really Dr. Rich in hiding?

[Woody]

I suppose that by lying to the american people to start a war is not as troublesome as to fight so hard so as to get us out of that war...

Deuteronomy 5:20

HB you SO often prove my point.

Thank you.

[bonnie]

Jesus was a socialist.

Find one thing that Jesus himself said that supports capitalism.

On the other hand, he spoke about selling all you have and giving to the poor, about how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven (and by world standards, everyone posting here is rich), and so on.

*Plenty* of His words support letting go of wealth to seek spiritual things. *None* of them promote grasping material things.

Prove me wrong from the words of Jesus.

Truth is important. The parable of the rich young ruler is not advocating socialism,rather the ruler was looking for a way to work his way to heaven. 'What good thing must I do to be saved"

Why would there be this denial that Obama is a socialist by so many here.That would simply make him more Christ like,why would anyone want to deny that.All liberals should be proud to declare this president a socialist.

BTW,for those that want to live a christian life,have you sold all and given to the poor.If you believe this is a command by God why not?

Do you have material possessions that you are grasping after?

God also mentions many others that will not be saved.Liars,adulterers,those living a homosexual lifestyle,fornicators,murderer's

[Woody]

Quote:

BTW,for those that want to live a christian life,have you sold all and given to the poor.If you believe this is a command by God why not?

I'm hoping Bravus will answer this. I am looking forward to it.

[bonnie]

Quote:

BTW,for those that want to live a christian life,have you sold all and given to the poor.If you believe this is a command by God why not?

I'm hoping Bravus will answer this. I am looking forward to it.

This assumption that any that work hard and earn a good living are some how going to have a harder time gaining eternal life is rather a tired judgmental argument as those making the argument are somehow exempt.

Hard work and good stewardship,a decent home and care of your family is not what the "rich young ruler" was about.

It was his love of material possessions and not willing to give that up. Not socialism.Yet we have a very definite leaning socialist president and there is always a rush to deny that.Why?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

I suppose that by lying to the american people to start a war is not as troublesome as to fight so hard so as to get us out of that war...

Deuteronomy 5:20

HB you SO often prove my point.

Thank you.

Good Point Woody. And let me add to that - If HB would listen to Fox News he would learn to be much more knowledgeable and appropriate.

[Robert]

Jesus was a socialist.

Yes, in a way He was, but yet socialism - of itself - isn't based

in agape. Instead Christ introduced Biblical socialism. Here are some samples:

Matt 19:21 If you want to be perfect (in love), go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Keep in mind the early church did this for a time:

Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.... 34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Phil 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves....

[Robert]

It was his love of material possessions and not willing to give that up.

False! The context reveals that the rich young ruler claimed to keep the law:

Matt 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept? "All these things refers to verses 18 & 19:

"YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

He claimed to keep the law, but he had failed! The proof is that he didn't love his neighbor as he loved himself. If he had then he would have given his wealth to the poor. That's Biblical socialism!

[Robert]

Here's Ellen White:

The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. This Jesus desired to reveal to the young man, and He gave him a test that would make manifest the selfishness of his heart. He showed him the plague spot in his character. The young man desired no further enlightenment. He had cherished an idol in the soul; the world was his god. He professed to have kept the commandments, but he was destitute of the principle which is the very spirit and life of them all. He did not possess true love (AGAPE) for God or man. ... In his love of self and worldly gain he was out of harmony with the principles of heaven. (COL 392)

[Bravus]

Why would there be this denial that Obama is a socialist by so many here.That would simply make him more Christ like,why would anyone want to deny that.All liberals should be proud to declare this president a socialist.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge that Obama is a socialist. I suspect many Americans on the left are reluctant because many Americans don't understand what socialism is and think it's a synonym for 'babyeating communist'. But yes, some of his views and policies are socialist - alongside a great many that are capitalist. It's not actually an all-or-nothing proposition.

Quote:

BTW,for those that want to live a christian life,have you sold all and given to the poor.If you believe this is a command by God why not?

(a) I am *not* trying to live a Christian life, I am trying to live a morally good life.

( I do not believe this is a command of God for everyone. Please read what I wrote as a gloss on it - 'free yourself from the chains of material goods'. For this young man, that meant he needed to get rid of all of them, but that is not the case for everyone.

We *do* all need to free ourselves from the chains of material goods. How hard that is, and how radical the measures required, is between us and God or us and our own consciences.

[Bravus]

This assumption that any that work hard and earn a good living are some how going to have a harder time gaining eternal life is rather a tired judgmental argument as those making the argument are somehow exempt.

Hard work and good stewardship,a decent home and care of your family is not what the "rich young ruler" was about.

It was his love of material possessions and not willing to give that up. Not socialism.Yet we have a very definite leaning socialist president and there is always a rush to deny that.Why?

Last part has been answered. No-one was saying the first part.

No words of Jesus have been brought, though, just the same old bald assertions.

Are you followers of Christ? Then you ought to be able to show from his teachings that your teachings are in accordance with his.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

I suppose that by lying to the american people to start a war is not as troublesome as to fight so hard so as to get us out of that war...

Deuteronomy 5:20

HB you SO often prove my point.

Thank you.

[olger]

Jesus was a socialist.

Find one thing that Jesus himself said that supports capitalism.

On the other hand, he spoke about selling all you have and giving to the poor, about how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven (and by world standards, everyone posting here is rich), and so on.

*Plenty* of His words support letting go of wealth to seek spiritual things. *None* of them promote grasping material things.

Prove me wrong from the words of Jesus.

I tremble to answer this charge, lest I speak for the Lord as others have done on here. But the statement that "Jesus was a socialist" deserves a biblical response, even though those two words should not even be in the same sentence.

Jesus preceded Marx historically by nearly 19 whole centuries. In addition, Marx built his entire socialist philosophy on the initial premise that God was merely a human delusion, and the second that religion was nothing more than an "opiate of the masses."

Therefore, any attempt to make Jesus a socialist begins with many contradictions

Theological liberalism perverts the Christian meaning of the poor, and they transform the fight for the rights of the poor into a class fight within the ideological perspective of a political class struggle. Not good.

So, what is the Christian meaning of "the poor"? It is simply that there are a host of ways to be poor. "Blessed are the poor in spirit.."

And according to the Christian faith the worst form of poverty is not material; it is spiritual. One can be rolling in money and material goods, but be spiritually impoverished. One can be materially poor as dirt, but spiritually rich, and happy.

Jesus did make many statements about the virtues of being generous with one's own material wealth, whether it be great or small. However, the innate crux of every one of Jesus' admonitions to give to those less fortunate was freedom. Unless the deed was done freely, according to the giver's own free will, there was no blessing in the deed at all.

Jesus railed against corruption, not against free trade.

The unmistakable eschatological under/overtone is clear in statements like "Well done thou good & faithful servant" and the destiny pronounced over the wicked and lazy servant. I don't believe Jesus is talking about making profit here, but rather the productive heart that increases the Lord's gifts to us and its effect on our destiny.

I can understand why the statement in Matthew 25:29 is troubling to social justice devotees. IMHO it would be better to balance the story with verses 35-45 rather than yield to deconstructive reinterpretations like current liberal professors.

The five foolish virgins' failed appeal to "social justice" revealed a heart oriented towards socialism and unacquainted with the Lord of All. "Verily I say unto you, I never knew you" (v. 12).

There is room for the productive, disciplined (discipled) and generous soul in heaven. There is no room for the willingly slothful, and the greedy. Walk with the King and be a blessing!”

G

[bonnie]

Last part has been answered. No-one was saying the first part.

No words of Jesus have been brought, though, just the same old bald assertions.

Are you followers of Christ? Then you ought to be able to show from his teachings that your teachings are in accordance with his.

Many words of Christ have been written,some I believe people distort for their own benefit.

I do not believe Christ was promoting socialism with that parable.It starts out with the young ruler wanting to know what good works would gain him eternal life.NOTHING!!

Obviously he was more interested in his worldly possessions than following Christ.Not that worldly possessions are wrong,only when they have more importance than Christ.

There is also a assumption that the "poor" are without responsibility or if they are poor they have a absolute right by force of government to have what another has.

No one has a God given right to what another earns. Those with more have a christian not government obligation with their means.No where does God command to support those unwilling to work and do as much for themselves as they can

With the misplaced priorities of the rich young ruler,had he even given all he had to the poor for the sole purpose of gaining salvation he would have been left out

[Robert]

Marx built his entire socialist philosophy on the initial premise that God was merely a human delusion, and the second that religion was nothing more than an "opiate of the masses."

Bad religion produced this atheistic state.

Communism came into play because the Christian church failed to demonstrate God's love. In fact, in the industrial revolution in Europe, there was so much exploitation done that was condoned by the church, that Karl Marx condemned Christianity as being “the opiate of the people.”

[Robert]

Jesus railed against corruption, not against free trade.

Free-trade is an oxymoron. Free trade is nothing more or less than Laissez-faire Capitalism!

The phrase laissez-faire is French and literally means "let do", but it broadly implies "let it be", or "leave it alone." (Wikipedia)

Again, the best thing for any of you business owners in to compete directly with exploited wages. Then, and only then, will you understand the true nature of what you propose.

[Robert]

Obviously he was more interested in his worldly possessions than following Christ.

Then you must apply the same to yourself. Look at the context:

Matt 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

Notice he wanted to do something in order to gain eternal life! Clearly he didn't know the gospel.

17.... If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Christ gives him the answer to his question - that is, if you want to gain eternal life you must obey the law.

Now you might not desire to keep the law so as to gain heaven. That would be impossible and legalistic. However, we can't escape what the law justly requires! Let's read on:

18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Please note that Christ took the commandment "you shall not covet" and inserted "love your neighbor as yourself" in its place! To covet then, is to love self instead of your neighbor.

20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Did Jesus live for Himself? No! That's why He was poor in a world dominated by self-interest. He kept the law - all of it!

Hence the law requires sinners who naturally love themselves by nature to take that self-love and bend it outward as opposed to inward. So if you really love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself then you'll have no problem in giving all your hard earned possessions to the poor! Hence the law requires no bent to self (self-love), but instead agape love.

[Bravus]

Responding to olger's longish (but good) post on the previous page, without quoting it for space reasons.

You've confused socialism with Marxism - of course Jesus was not a Marxist. This is part of the problem in all these discussions: those talking about 'socialism' do not understand the term, and apply it to things it is not.

You also associated socialism with government socialism, but this is not the only form. A kibbutz is socialist without government involvement. The early church likewise.

If by the word 'socialism', what you mean is Marxist government, then clearly Jesus was not a socialist. But that's not what I said, and not what I meant.

And *still*, in all the response posts on this topic from conservatives, the words of Jesus are the missing ingredient. Lots of political talking points but a conspicuous absence of Scripture - specifically the red-lettered bits.

[Robert]

...the law requires no bent to self (self-love), but instead agape love.

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. (DA 48)

That's heaven's way of producing wealth! The early church testified to this fact. Note there's no self-love, but pure agape love. You don't live for your wealth, you live for another's wealth!

So Jesus, through Ellen White, definitely doesn't back Capitalism, which is built on Lucifer's love of self!

[Robert]

[Robert]

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. (DA 48)

So Jesus, through Ellen White, definitely doesn't back Capitalism, which is built on Lucifer's love of self!

Now, clearly the Christian isn't under law. If so you've had it! That is, no heaven for you because the law will not give you a pass or partial credit.

So what is Paul's counsel to believers living in the world dominated by self-interest?

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Note that the best of us still retain self-interests and self-love. Under law that is not allowed. "In heaven none will think of self"...they will live only for others. No self-love will be allowed in heaven. Hence at the resurrection/translation we drop our bent to self (the sin nature).

[lazarus]

And *still*, in all the response posts on this topic from conservatives, the words of Jesus are the missing ingredient. Lots of political talking points but a conspicuous absence of Scripture - specifically the red-lettered bits.

The only conclusion that it would be safe to draw is the most obvious one. There are no words of Jesus that support their positions.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

And *still*, in all the response posts on this topic from conservatives, the words of Jesus are the missing ingredient. Lots of political talking points but a conspicuous absence of Scripture - specifically the red-lettered bits.

The only conclusion that it would be safe to draw is the most obvious one. There are no words of Jesus that support their positions.

That's the bottom line. Busted!