The loss of frock

[Woody]

Does anyone know what percentage of our ministers end up losing their frock.

I don't know if there are any accurate records of defrocking - but I would be interested if anyone knows.

[Gibs]

Woody, I don't remember for sure but wasn't M. L. Andreasen defrocked for a time and it seems at the time it took away his sustenance. He had wrote if my memory is right 11 letters to the churchs countering things and he was a straight shooter if I remember right. But I believe he was reinstated after he contended bitterly for a time. I have an older friend I'll ask him on this and if any thing he reveals is different I'll be back.

I know there is others but if anyone can dig up or has access to records of it that is interresting.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

I don't know for sure Gibs. But I hope they didn't refrock him. I have a number of his books and at least for a time - he was a very un-straight shooter in regards to his legalistic theologies.

[Gibs]

Woody, Have you read his book, "the sanctuary service", I wonder if you have if you think he is off in it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

I've read enough of him Gibs - so that I have no desire to read any more.

[Gail]

George Knight had a gripe against Andreasen along the same lines as Woody just mentioned and I do believe it had to do with The Sanctuary Service.

I'm thinking the remark was made in Knight's book, Sin and Salvation, which is an excellent read. I'd have to go search it out to find the reference...

[Woody]

George Knight had a gripe against Andreasen along the same lines as Woody just mentioned and I do believe it had to do with The Sanctuary Service.

I'm thinking the remark was made in Knight's book, Sin and Salvation, which is an excellent read. I'd have to go search it out to find the reference...

You would be exactly right regarding that Gail. Knight starts his attack on Andreasen's theology on p. 19 of said book.

I am not going to type the entire section here - but he does say that Andreasen's theology is "exactly the same position as the Pharisees on sin and righteousness" p. 19 of said book.

George Knight is the church's premire scholar on the topic. I tend to value his comments on this topic.

[ClubV12]

Knight is a very interesting author all right. At times he can be difficult to understand as he uses just a bit of sarcasm in places. Or he makes provocative statements which can be easy to misinterpret, sharp mind for sure. He teaches a Sabbath school class in one of our local churches here in the area.

I'm not a big fan of Andreason myself, all though I have not heard what Knight had to say on the subject.

Seems to me that Andreasons' pension or retirement monies were restored, but not his ministers license. I could support that, pretty serious taking away a guys retirement regardless of "why".

[CoAspen]

What! They be wearing frocks?? Where, in the dark, in the closet?

[Gail]

What! They be wearing frocks?? Where, in the dark, in the closet?

Not anymore... they be defrocked.

[ClubV12]

I did chuckle at Woodys use of the word "frocked", all though I get what he was driving at, it's an unusual path.

[Woody]

I did chuckle at Woodys use of the word "frocked", all though I get what he was driving at, it's an unusual path.

ClubV - You have accurately described me:

"unusual"

[Gibs]

I see none have come up with a list of the defrocked ones yet.

But I do have an observation about M L Andreasen and that is he is far too prolific a writer for me. His book on the sanctuary is very good, it is truly Adventist. This was the man's big thing and he really went out in detail in every way possible.

I was talking to an older friend a few minutes ago and he says they had to give him back his sustenance because of the laws of the land and he feels sure they gave him back his credentials but by then he was badly depleted from it all.

He faults M L A for not being stronger against Froom on some things but my friend don't like Froom.

The sanctuary message he was strongly dedicated to.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[tall73]

The annual statistics report includes numbers on MEMBERS dropped for reason other than death or missing, but it does not list ministers dropped.

It does list total numbers of workers.

I am sure they probably have those statistics, they just may not be publicly available.

The number of members dropped for the 2010 annual statistics report was 189,302.

The year before it was 242,603.

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ASR/ASR2010.pdf#view=fit

[Gordon1]

As I recall, Andreasen was blackballed, rejected by the church & friends he worked a lifetime to support.

Left to twist in the wind. Sinister & illegal.

[ClubV12]

I don't know about the sinister part, but the illegal part may be applicable. Sometimes it takes a judge or a court case to determine what is and isn't legal in a situation. Both sides may well be acting in good faith, thus I will not make a judgment on the sinister aspect.

Personally I DID find his work, his letters, his talks, his approach in how he dealt with the brethren to be on the offensive side, to heavy handed. I don't agree with all of his theology, but that really wasn't the point for me, it was more of his attitude in demanding the brethren see it his way, or the highway. The highway is what he wanted for others, and what he found for himself.

I've HEARD (another rumor?) that about 150 Adventist Pastors were "defrocked" over the Desmond Ford thing. In that case, the list could be very long indeed.

[Gordon1]

it was more of his attitude in demanding the brethren see it his way, or the highway.

[ClubV12]

Time and place Gordon, time and place. You don't storm the cockpit and try to take over in midflight. You don't change horses in mid stream. You don't slip out the back Jack... uh,,,, wait, that one doesn't work. :)

[tall73]

This study looks in depth at the departure of ministers in Australia and New Zealand over the ten year period after the Ford crisis.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...lis&f=false

[tall73]

Here is a quote from his work:

A quote from his work:

In the course of my research I compiled a list of 182 ministers who left the Adventist ministry between 1980 and 1988. This figure is equivalent to an astonishing 40 percent of the total ministerial work force in Australia and New Zealand--a statistic without presence in the Adventist Church at any other time or in any other place.

This is only in Australia and New Zealand where Ford was most influential.

He also recounts that he tried to obtain statistics from the administrative bodies in the church but they declined, perhaps to avoid morale issues.

[Woody]

I did chuckle at Woodys use of the word "frocked", all though I get what he was driving at, it's an unusual path.

Well whether they lose their frock or their flock I don't want to mock.

[tall73]

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AUSS/AUSS20000401-V38-01__B.pdf

In this Andrews University Seminary Studies volume there is a brief book review of the above referenced study by George Knight.

[Woody]

that is a bit more than I am capable of reading.

[tall73]

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN20001001-V73-10__B.pdf

An article in Ministry Magazine discussed "Project Seventh-day Adventist Clergy: Stage II" which followed the ministerial class in United States and Canada for the graduating year 1987, through the year 1997.

It found 34 percent of those who entered ministry dropped out by mid 1997.

70 percent of those in the class who stayed in ministry reported that they have considered dropping out of the ministry.

Some of the data on persister's reasons for considering drop out was presented in a chart

Church politics...........................33%

Lack of conference support..........21%

Theological differences................12%

Personal finances........................9%

Personal family problems.............9%

No response..............................18%

A quote from one drop-out:

"After years of work for the denomination, when I left, they wouldn't give me a letter of reference to even collect garbage! They were through with me!"

[Kevin H]

Sadly Elder Andresen was defrocked and had to live the rest of his life off welfare. Now he did work things out with the church and was re-enstated, but he died before he could get a pay check from this.

I am sad to hear about the person who could not get a letter of reference. I remember both Elder Skantz when he was the President of the New York Conference, he specifically said this durring the 1979-80 year, and then at AUC they also taught this that when someone was to be disfellowshiped, to enforce that they were no longer going to have their name on our church books, but to emphesise that it does not mean that they are disfellowshiped from Chirst and to help them find a new church home where they might be more comfortable with.

I wish we would practice this more, and also with pastors who do not feel comfortable continuing as Seventh-day Adventist pastors, for us to help them find groups that they may be more comfortable with and letters of recomendation.

As to Elder Andresen, what bothers me is not as much what he believed and was teaching, but the fact that he was pointing out that some people gave part of the message but forgot a part. The sad part is that too many who listened to him took the PARTS that he said was neglected, they have made into a WHOLE at the expence of the parts of the truth that was not neglected, and thus on points where Elder Andresen had a more ballanced view, his followers have become unballanced because they are only believing PART of what he believed.