Justification/Salvation in John's writings

[Hansen]

In the writings of John, the concept of judgment usually has a negative connotation. “To judge” means “to condemn”:

Joh 3:17 "for god did not send the son into the world to judge <2919> the world, but that the world might be saved <4982> through him.

Joh 12:47 "if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge <2919> him; for I did not come to judge <2919> the world, but to save <4982> the world.

According to the above passages, the opposite of being judged [condemned] is being saved.

Notice the following verse. People are judged on their response to Christ:

Joh 3:18 "he who believes in him is not judged <2919>; he who does not believe has been judged <2919> already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of god.

More specifically, people are judged on their response to the teachings of Christ. Those who believe will not come into judgment:

Joh 5:24 "truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

In his first epistle, John says:

1 Joh 4:15 whoever confesses that Jesus is the son of god, god abides in him, and he in god.

16 we have come to know and have believed the love which god has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in god, and god abides in him.

17 by this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as he is, so also are we in this world.

Those who believe in Jesus will have confidence in the day of judgment.

In John’s writings, he plays judgment/condemnation against salvation/justification. People pass into eternal life, are saved or lost because of their belief or unbelief in Christ’s words. These words will judge the unbelievers in the last day.

Joh 5:24 "truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Joh 12:47 "if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 12:48 "he who rejects me and does not receive my sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Revelation 20 speaks of two resurrections. One takes place before the millennium. It is comprised of the blessed who will reign with Christ. The other resurrection ends with the second death. It is comprised of the damned.

The most significant aspect of this brief survey is the near absence of the word justification from John’s writings. He juxtaposes condemnation and salvation rather than condemnation and justification; therefore, in John’s writings, justification by faith is salvation by faith. Those who are saved through belief in Christ are not expected to be condemned at a later point in time.

[dialoguewithus]

http://goddidntsaythat.com/2010/02/25/john-317-and-a-translation-that-might-work/

I would say that Jn. 12:32 also speaks of salvation. (The word for draw also appears in Jn. 6:44; 18:10; 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19.)

[Hansen]

Another point implicit in John's writings is that the old adage, "justified by faith and judged by works," is rubbish. The judgment scenario in Revelation 20 makes it very clear that only the wicked will be judged by their works, prior to the second death:

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.

15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

The righteous have no part in this judgment according to works. They were judged when they believed in Christ, as the gospel of John repeatedly states. They were saved/justified by faith. They were raised in the first resurrection; consequently, they are not subject to judgment ending in the second death.

[Dr. Rich]

That judgment was for the wicked. The first judgment is for those who proclaim that they are righteous--read Rev. 11:1.

John NEVER said anything about becoming righteous by faith. Jesus NEVER taught this either. John made it clear that one MUST abide in the words of Jesus for salvation.

[Guest]

1Jn 5:4 For whoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

I think it was John that said that.

[Dr. Rich]

Now read the verses above this one= "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep [all] His commandments; and His commandmdnts are not burdensome."

Therefore, you have no true faith unless you keep all of the ten commandments and abide in the words of Jesus. It's just that simple, and this is the truth about how salvation works.

[Guest]

Therefore, you have no true faith unless you keep all of the ten commandments and abide in the words of Jesus.

We're in agreement on that. Faith that works.

[Dr. Rich]

I already knew that my friend!

[whatisthis]

From the day the Lord declared to the serpent in Eden, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed" (Genesis 3:15), Satan has known that he can never hold absolute sway over the inhabitants of this world. When Adam and his sons began to offer the ceremonial sacrifices ordained by God as a type of the coming Redeemer, Satan discerned in these a symbol of communion between earth and heaven. During the long centuries that have followed, it has been his constant effort to intercept this communion. Untiringly has he sought to misrepresent God and to misinterpret the rites pointing to the Saviour, and with a great majority of the members of the human family he has been successful.

While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction." Prophets and Kings p. 685

Now, I'm not worthy to quote anything in the Bible. But I’ve decided I always can still gasp Psa 30:10 "Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper!" and I am particularly delighted by the idea of communion with God being the point that I can have and the devil doesn’t want me to have, because God will have His way!

Has anyone noticed the Adventist difference? I noticed it when I wasn’t one. Adventists have Sabbath to be happy with, and such a sense of security! They have their petty problems, hey, they even face biggies, but it’s with this sense of – of being loved! And whatever they’ve been saying about judgment, the actual statistical advantage of being an Adventist is to live longer, afloat in that glow. It can’t be that God hates them! And I noticed that when I left Adventism, and wanted it back desperately!

There was one thing I came back just trusting that I could eventually understand, but not understanding, though. Judgment. And then I figured I had it all figured out, and wow, what a mess. I didn’t. Finally I’ve gotten my nerve up to study into it again, knowing I DON’T fully understand it, but believing that communion with Him must somehow be the key to getting me through since He loves me so much and goes to such pains to make me special in Him!

And the more I look closely at what I’ve considered to be the really “dreadful statements” about judgment, the more I think that communion is a key factor that won’t be taken away from me, even after the shut-down of everything! (close of probation) And if communion with Jesus won’t be taken away, then how can Satan take me down! But before everybody gets too excited and calls me a heretic or something, please let me get to why I think communion won’t go away!

[whatisthis]

Let me back up just a little. One thing that encouraged me early on, while I still hadn’t been rebaptized as an Adventist, was that the word “Sanctuary” means “Safe Place”! I saw the Sanctuary movement where Christians from various faiths were sheltering people who had come into criss-crosses between various governments that threatened their lives, and it painted a vivid picture of that word for me! So I though surely this Sanctuary can’t be some place where I’m doomed to be forever rejected and unsafe!

You know what I think? I think that Sanctuary message is part of that promising environment of being an Adventist, heavy as that message is.

Think about it?

Would the same God who gave Adventists “Happy Sabbath!” and all that security, give them something that would destroy them? Could it possibly be that He has a way for that heavy message to work out for their good?

So I just had barely enough courage to look for a description of what that day is about. And I have found something that seems to me to be clearing up some facets at least of what the Day of Atonement in heaven is:

. . ."once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners. The sacrifices and offerings of the Mosaic ritual were ever pointing toward a better service, even a heavenly”

—(my note: I think that would have to be the day of atonement, because it’s talking about a time “once each year”. So I’m looking to see what that would represent, and that’s when I come to the part about communion being something Satan can’t erase.--

Here's more of that quote:

“The earthly sanctuary was "a figure for the time then present," in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices; its two holy places were "patterns of things in the heavens;" for Christ, our great High Priest, is today "a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man." Hebrews 9:9, 23; 8:2.

From the day the Lord declared to the serpent in Eden, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed" (Genesis 3:15), Satan has known that he can never hold absolute sway over the inhabitants of this world. When Adam and his sons began to offer the ceremonial sacrifices ordained by God as a type of the coming Redeemer, Satan discerned in these a symbol of communion between earth and heaven. During the long centuries that have followed, it has been his constant effort to intercept this communion. Untiringly has he sought to misrepresent God and to misinterpret the rites pointing to the Saviour, and with a great majority of the members of the human family he has been successful.

While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction."

Prophets and Kings p. 685

And there's more!

[whatisthis]

Now let me stop and think about this Prophets and Kings quote, though. The attitude of God doesn’t sound judgmental, but it does sound like Satan wants to make it seem that way.

But, there still is a very hard saying involved in all this. God doesn’t like sin, and God intends to separate us from love of sin. What can it possibly mean to “stand before a Holy God without an intercessor”?

I do not know fully why the remarks people have much-quoted about "without an intercessor" were made by EGW, other than that God wants us to get seriously eager to get away from sin! And I freely admit I don't exactly know what all of it means yet, but I am pretty clearly seeing that being sheltered by Jesus gift of His blood is something I decide to do each day at the acceptable time which is today, and it's something I will be, that the wicked aren't, when probation is over.

How do I know? I've been looking carefully at this (most terrible) quote:

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one." The Time of Trouble, Great Controversy p. 614

Now, notice, “Unsheltered by divine grace”. Isn’t that a description of the wicked? Yes, and how could that be a description of Jesus' family? Sheltered o'er, sheltered o'er, I am sheltered in His love. No foe can confound me! So that gives me hope. The wicked are the ones unsheltered by divine grace.

"it has been his constant effort to intercept this communion." p. 685 of Prophets and Kings Communion! That's the beautiful point of the Grace service that replaced Passover service. As I partake of His body and His blood I'm in irreversible communion with Him! He's becoming part of me!

Now what happens in that communion?

Revised Standard Version "Truly, truly, I say unto you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

What a relief to hear that I am passed from death to life! I just want to exclaim with Psalms 30:3,4 "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness"

Wow, what a wonderful hope! Wasn't that the whole burden of Jones and Wagoner? Was it something new not in harmony with what had been preached by Ellen White?

I've found the hope of having passed from death into life right in this passage:

Great Controversy Page 571 . . . "for the church for all future time. The events that would take place in the closing scenes of this earth's history were outlined before him; and there he wrote out the visions he received from God. When his voice could no longer testify to the One whom he loved and served, the messages given him on that barren coast were to go forth as a lamp that burneth, declaring the sure purpose of the Lord concerning every nation on the earth.

Among the cliffs and rocks of Patmos, John held communion with his Maker. He reviewed his past life, and at thought of the blessings he had received, peace filled his heart. He had lived the life of a Christian, and he could say in faith, "We know that we have passed from death unto life." 1 John 3:14. Not so the emperor who had banished him. He could look back only on fields of warfare and carnage, on desolated homes, on weeping widows and orphans, the fruit of his ambitious desire for pre-eminence.”

So I see two paths here, open to me, a path of peace, a path of “death and carnage”. Do I deserve to have a path of peace because of all my good choices and great acts? Absurd! Never!

It’s trust that lifts that cup to my lips and it’s His blood that can then start changing me! But I have passed from death into life, and that means a new path with new deeds and better memories to look forward to having made! Wow, even on the last day of my life I could change everything around by a choice like that (thief on cross?) so the choice is immensely powerful to change outcomes, no matter where I go from there, but wow, it will mean a new path!

[whatisthis]

Do I never stumble? That's a huge question.

I know I do stumble, partly because my knowledge is so incomplete! If I just knew Jesus better-- and it hurts so badly that I discredit Jesus so much and hurt others so badly and I can only fall weeping at Jesus feet.

I don't see anything redeemable in me. Am I redeemable? That's my huge question and I cling to answers like this one. It's harshly titled "Test of Discipleship" but it is the kind of test that is a yoke I feel I can easily bear:

p. 64 Steps to Christ, Test of Discipleship

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.”

Oh, that is so encouraging! The damage I have done by my own sins and mistakes is so hugely painful that I can’t express it and wouldn’t want to if I could because it would kill me! I am apalled at it and so sorry and I want to make up for it, but ONLY His grace can touch it. But because of Jesus Christ and His love for me I still have precious hope:

Joh 3:15,16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The New Revised Standard Version " ...and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life."

American Standard Version "... and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

New American Standard Bible " ... and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

The New English Bible " ...and puts his trust in him who sent me has hold of eternal life, and does not come up for judgment ... "

The Complete Bible An American Translation " ... whoever listens to my message and believes him who sent me, possesses eternal life, and will not come to judgment ... ."

Good News For Modern Man " ... and believes in him who sent me, has eternal life. He will not be judged ... ."

Amplified ' ... and relies on Him Who sent Me has [possesses now] eternal life. And he does not come into judgment ... ."

Why? Well, it’s because Jesus stands for them and has paid the penalty of their sins at the Cross!

We do not come into judgment!

But wait! Why can I say that when I know there's a judgment hour and we're in it? The judgment hour is not about people who love the Lord and are obeying his commands and walking with Him in love, "coming into judgment". That phrase is reserved for condemned people, and there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus! I'm sure it's about discovering whether we are covered by Jesus blood, partaking of His body and His blood, and walking in a living relationship with Him so that we never have to be judged and found wanting!

Why is there a judgment hour then? And why would those who claim Jesus be examined first? We have to understand that there are several Biblical uses of the word judgment. And yes, John means we’re not going to be condemned when it says the righteous don’t come into judgment, but there’s something the righteous do experience in the Judgment Hour!

I take some hope in knowing that orphans and widows need "right judgment" according to Psalms 10:18 where the Psalmist describes the righteous work as being “To judge the fatherless and the oppressed, that the man of the earth may no more oppress..

Fatherless children aren't needing a finger shaken at them, they are needing food and shelter and clothing. And Jesus does feed and shelter and clothe us. Like the orphans we need right judgment, we need someone to defend us.

Another translation put it: 14 But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief, To repay it by Your hand. The helpless commits himself to You; You are the helper of the fatherless. 15 Break the arm of the wicked and the evil man; Seek out his wickedness until You find none. 16 The LORD is King forever and ever; The nations have perished out of His land. 17 LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will prepare their heart; You will cause Your ear to hear, 18 To do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, That the man of the earth may oppress no more.

Psalm 10:14-18

Sounds like a beautiful chant of victory!

I know that a Hebrew judge was advocate for the accused, and I remember that so is Jesus. He has not left us orphans with no helper! He's sending us a Comfortor to help us and keep the oppressor away!

Why is there a judgment hour? I don't think it's so Jesus can accuse us, no, it can't be that. Satan is already doing a good job of that!

One important meaning of the word judgment is "setting right". Justice is so much more than punishment, justice is bringing friendship where there’s loneliness, peace and purity where there is aching need. Wouldn't anyone want this painful old world set right?

I believe our Comfortor will bring us to Jesus's merchandise of gold tried in the fire, and eyesalve to see, and everything we need. He will open our eyes to Jesus, and as we see Jesus more clearly we will have more understanding of the puzzling things that have not been totally clear to us before. But one thing we can be certain of is that God hasn't left us to be lonely and condemned and naked with no coat of grace!

You and I can definitely rejoice that He came not to condemn us, but to love us and give us life everlastingly! I know I can't cherish sin and be saved. Am I cherishing sin or cherishing Jesus? This Judgment hour is a time for the Spirit to show me that I’m not cherishing Jesus, and I’m still cherishing sin, but the Spirit uproots those terrible cherishing! Do I want Jesus more? Do I totally want to Jesus as my all? That's the great question for the hour, and I want Jesus! He cherishes me, and I cherish Jesus, and He's never going to let me go!

[whatisthis]

I could tell Jesus and the Holy Spirit who is showing me how much wrong desire is in me, "Go away, I don't need you!" Then He'd have to go, sadly away. But when I need Him and I long for Him and I want to be forgiven and saved and I want most more than anything to live a better life, then all of Satan's mockery for my terrible sins is totally inappropriate. I can choose Jesus! Why? Jesus has already chosen me, He’s forgiven all my sins, and all my human oppressors and hurtful enemies’ sins too, and I don’t have to judge between me and them, I can just accept the great tide of forgiveness!

Another way to put it is that I can choose Jesus life-path of peace and reject the carnage and death caused by sin! Another part of judgment is finding out the real motives of the heart. Even criminals are partly judged by intent. What's my intent? Is it to follow Jesus, or to be like the Most High myself, and enthrone me? Jesus is counting friendships!

[Hansen]

Whatisthis, You are way off topic. This is about judgment is John's writings; consequently, any reference to the temple cult or Prophets and Kings is irrelevant. There may be more but this isn't the thread for it..

Rich, The commandments in John's writings do not refer to the Decalogue, Normally, in John's gospel, they refer to the teachings of Christ. Notice the following passage in 1 John which plainly defines the commandments:

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.

1Jo 3:24 the one who keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. we know by this that he abides in us, by the spirit whom he has given us.

The "commandments" mentioned above refer to two things--faith in Jesus Christ and love for our fellow man. In John's gospel, the "commandments" refer to the teachings of Christ.

[cheddar]

Whatisthis, You are way off topic. This is about judgment is John's writings; consequently, any reference to the temple cult or Prophets and Kings is irrelevant. There may be more but this isn't the thread for it..

Rich, The commandments in John's writings do not refer to the Decalogue, Normally, in John's gospel, they refer to the teachings of Christ. Notice the following passage in 1 John which plainly defines the commandments:

1Jo 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:23 this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.

1Jo 3:24 the one who keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. we know by this that he abides in us, by the spirit whom he has given us.

The "commandments" mentioned above refer to two things--faith in Jesus Christ and love for our fellow man. In John's gospel, the "commandments" refer to the teachings of Christ.

I couldn't agree more.

If you haven't noticed already, Adventists have the ten commandments hard-wired into their brains and they literally can’t see anything else.

They’ve even gone so far as to try and make Paul and John fit their warped understanding of the gospel.

I just try to look past it. I know there are a few stalks of wheat in there somewhere being smothered by the tares.

[whatisthis]

I'm possibly off topic, but I don't think so. John didn't write in a vacuum. The whole topic is what John, as every other writer, approached! But, I did dump in too much at once, and I'm sorry for that. I just got excited because I've been studying this very topic and these very verses, and--got carried away. I apologize.

[cheddar]

I'm possibly off topic, but I don't think so. John didn't write in a vacuum. The whole topic is what John, as every other writer, approached! But, I did dump in too much at once, and I'm sorry for that. I just got excited because I've been studying this very topic and these very verses, and--got carried away. I apologize.

I wasn’t referring to what you said it was the earlier posts that sound like something you would hear out in the desert with Moses.

John mentions the word ‘commandment’ many times and in every case I’ve come across he is referring to the commands of Jesus not the decalogue.

[phkrause]

I already knew that my friend!

How can you say that? But yet at the same time say you don't believe that?

[Dr. Rich]

John didn't have any problems with the ten commandments and neither did any of the disciples. They did not even have the knowledge that the covenant had alegedly changed to a new covenant. To them, it was the same thing as it always was, the ten commandments. It was Paul who brought in the "new covenant" as his gospel.

[Dr. Rich]

PK, what's your problem here? I have always said and believe that real 'faith' (I call trust) is shown by how much we love God by doing what He said to do without asking questions. Do you have a problem with this?

Richard and I talk on skype a bit and we have known that we have this in common.

I find it interesting that Paul's words are usually about justification while Jesus and the write of Hebrews talk about sanctification. It is clear to me that Paul thougt little about any water baptism, fully believing that one is simply justified when they believe that Jesus was the Christ. Am I right about this?

[Hansen]

The questions/ issues/ disagreements about the meaning of "commandments" in John's writings can be resolved by looking at all the references to commandments in those writings. The references amount to ~30. In most cases, the context clearly explains to what "commandment/s" refer. If you haven't looked at all the references a few times, you really have nothing meaningful to contribute to the discussion.

In my case, for example, I have been looking at these passages for about 10 years. I have looked at every passage in John's writings where the Greek word "entole" is found. There is no direct reference to the Decalogue in any of the ~30 appearances of "entole." Normally, the passage is defined by the context, usually as the teachings/words/sayings of Christ.

Even if there were references to the Decalogue in a couple of passages, the weight of evidence clearly indicates that the term 'commandments" usually means the teachings of Christ in John's writings.

The Online Bible, the Englishman's Greek Concordance, or even Strong's can be used to find every appearance of "entole" in John. If you have looked at every passage and have found one or two or more which clearly refer to the Decalogue, please share that here. Otherwise, you are ill informed to participate in a discussion of this nature.

[Dr. Rich]

Rev. 12:17 points out that this group will be keeping ALL of the ten commandments and abiding in the words of Jesus. Matt. 19's words to the Rich, Young ruler totally agree with this.

The author of the gospel of John (it may have been Lazuras) had no problem with the ten commandments being the covenant, as that was not an issue at that time. (see Matt. 19). Since it was Michael who later became Jesus who did the actual writing with His finger before Moses, then those commandments were from Him too.

So what is the real issue or problem here anyway? If John wrote the gospel of John, and he also wrote Revelation, he surely would have known what 'commandments' those in Rev. 12:17 would be keeping, right?

Besides, the "Common Law" the whole world has today IS none other than God's law that was known before it was written down for Israel. One of the Maxim's of law states: "Human man made laws (statutes) have a birth, life and a death, while the Common Law of 'nature' had no beginning and has no end.". (See Maxims of Law, Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856)

[Hansen]

Hi Rich, You offered one passage from John's writings which you say refers to the 10 Commandments. Of course, that is an empty assertion. There is nothing there which indicates that the "commandments of God" refer to the Decalogue.

Actually, considering the numerous places in which John defines the "commandments of God" as something other than the Decalogue, there is no reason, other than preconceived opinion, to define the "commandments of God" in Revelation 12:17 as the Decalogue.

Bouvier's Law Dictionary may be fascinating to you; however, it is irrelevant to the point of this thread. Neither is Matthew evidence from John's writings.

Thank you for nicely illustrating the inadequacy of your position.

[Robert]

The questions/ issues/ disagreements about the meaning of "commandments" in John's writings can be resolved by looking at all the references to commandments in those writings.

Context:

10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love ; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

12 "This is My commandment, that you love (agape) one another, just as I have loved (agaped) you.

13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

In other words the best a human can do is die for a friend. See Rom 5:7 Agape loves its enemies. See Romans 5:8-10

...17 "This I command you, that you love (agape) one another.

You can't keep the commandments without "agape". It takes agape to fulfill the law. We are completely void of agape. Hence only Christ working in our hearts can bring us into harmony with His law.

[Robert]

In fact if you are keeping the law without agape you are really keeping sin. The Pharisees were full time law keepers, but they were void of the ingredient needed to keep the law - i.e., agape. Hence, at the motivational level, all the works they did were so they could be seen of men. In other words they played church while completely void of Christ's love.