Guest Posted May 2, 2005 Posted May 2, 2005 Lesson title was Confrontation in Galilee. Wasn't until Thursday's section that the big stuff took place. Any fireworks in your class? In larger classes many are intimidated by the forum size..and that issue of speaking in public is way up on the list as a fear. Then there is the allegiance of the organization/ SDA mafia group vs the allegiance to Jesus syndrome /issue. Did any hear anything like how does SDA do something similar to what the Jewish clergy did with Corban against the 5th commandment? Quote
Ron Lambert Posted May 2, 2005 Posted May 2, 2005 JimBob7, I have no idea what you are talking about. Our Sabbath School class consists of about 12-16 people, and everyone freely participates. We had no "confrontations" this week or any other past week. Why should we? What is the "SDA mafia group"? Are you sure you're not imagining things? Quote
Guest Posted May 2, 2005 Posted May 2, 2005 Ron, Thanks for the reply. I am speaking of classes usually larger than 30 where the numbers make several, to most, timid. As you noticed in the lesson....Jesus confronted the clergy of the Jews of which he spoke in John 4..that salvation comes from the Jews...yet He had several disagreeable encounters with them. This forum is one where we can read about many disagreeable encounters... Now the question was posed in this large class I attended...."Are there SDA traditions that void out the law ?" Now how do you deal with that without bringing out dirty laundry, tearing down the church, making those who get their security from an organization uncomfortable, arrousing animosity from the guilt ridden and cowardly? What happened 2000 years ago still applies now. People are still Jer 17:9 and Rom 8:7 with religious clothes on. The SDA mafia comprises those Adventists who have religious attitudes and tendencies of the mafia only in a religious environment. Ron...to get the real feel ..you just had to be there and then I could debrief you. I see it over and over again.... The churchian smiles are replaced by dagger eyes. Quote
Administrators Naomi Posted May 2, 2005 Administrators Posted May 2, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> The SDA mafia comprises those Adventists who have religious attitudes and tendencies of the mafia only in a religious environment. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> JimBob, while I appreciate the sincerity of your post, I usually reframe replying. However, IMHO, the above statement is extremely strong and judgmental. One thing I learned a long time ago, 'when you point a finger at someone else, there are three pointing back at you. BTW, I was in a class with over thirty people attending, we had open discussion which included a large cross-section of cultures and opinions. Mature discussions? Yes Confrontations? NO Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Naomi, Yeah I know about the finger thing...I mentioned it on the platform as a SS superintendednt years ago... Currently I use the pot calling the kettle black bible verse ROM 2:1...but thanks for the input. Naomi...maybe you don't have the problem in Texas..because memebers have shotguns in their cars so if someone thinks about confronting anyone...the mind goes quickly to staring down the barrell of a rifle or pistol..I don't know. Don't be too quick to dismiss my words...you weren't there and didn't hear the exchange. Do you automatically assume my post is too far fetched/invalid? Do you assume that all SDA's are sheep and ZERO goats... that all are Christians and ZERO churchians? I lead a 12 -20 member SS class and attend a few classes which vary from 30 to 100 class sizes.... It is nice to hear of the participation level of your class...HOWEVER..what I post is what I experience...it is not internet fiction. There is nothing wrong with being strong and judgemental..as long as it is valid and can edify/warn the members. Review John the Baptist/prophets/ Jesus in Matt 23, Matt 12/Matt 15..Mark 7, Jude /2 Peter. If you can't stomach this...then stay with Martha in the kitchen.... yet you were still moved to reply to my post which means you should understand, somewhat, what the theme I am dealing with...just with your emotional experience involved in replying to my post. Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Quote: Then there is the allegiance of the organization/ SDA mafia group vs the allegiance to Jesus syndrome /issue. Ever hear something akin to this...I was born SDA? or I was born a Catholic, raised a CAtholic and will die a Catholic? This is what I mean by organizational/groupie/institution identification verses identification with Jesus/truth.. Read Great Contoversy about the SDA's who will leave and betray the genuine ones... These are some of the groupie/ institutional ones whose allegiance are to an organization vs to God/truth. God has a high regard for His church...that doesn't necessarily mean SDA...it means the body of true belivers. There is way to notice this...it is know by many researchers that there are levels in social maturity...where people are in chaos and are searching for stability or security because of their present experiences..the next level up is one of security.. There are levels above this...one leads back to chaos and one approach leads to moral maturity.... Because some are satisfied with just comfortable security...they never advance to moral maturity. This happens in church.. and when the person's security is tied to an organization..then when people speak about dirty laundry or something "negative" about the shortcomings or faults of the organization..these people feel threatened and animosity springs forth. Quote
darlene Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Could it be the attitude of the teacher that creates confrontation in a Sabbath School class? Could it be the wording and phrasing of questions that create strife? I'm happy to say that I have never been in a class nor taught a class where there is discord and disharmony in class discussion. If I were the teacher and this happened I would stop the discord immediately by drawing a conclusion to the topic and turning the discussion to a different area. It seems to me that a teacher who has prepared to teach the lesson during the week would do a better job at teaching and directing the class than allowing that to happen. As we all know, the lesson study is designed to learn God message and He has to say to us. It is designed to bring us into a closer relationship with Him not to draw members away from Him through discord and confrontation in a Sabbath School Class. If members of the class are not being drawn into a closer relationship with our Lord, then what is the point of having a Sabbath School class and studying the Bible? Might as well close the Sabbath School down altogether. Quote
Ron Lambert Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Quote: Ever hear something akin to this...I was born SDA? or I was born a Catholic, raised a CAtholic and will die a Catholic? JimBob7, a former pastor of my church would have been able to handle that situation easily. He was conducting a stress seminar, and one lady who came folded her arms around herself defensively and said, "I want you to know that I'm a good Catholic!" Pastor Shane smiled and replied, "We need more good Catholics!" It completely disarmed her. We do for a fact need more good, genuinely sincere Christians, of whatever denomination. They are the ones the Holy Spirit can use to accomplish much good, and lead into a better knowledge of truth. Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Let me give more context... In the 40 minutes of the sabbath school classtime..this occurance was only about 5 -7 minutes of the time..and was only on the one topic... I would say that 75% - 90% there is no confrontation at all. It only comes up when people get insecure or controversial topics are dealt with.. Now as to what the purpose is for sabbath school.... MUTIFACETED..... To understand God better. to strenghten and or restore the trust relationship with him. to transform our minds after his character pattern..to enable us to be a part of Jesus' John 10:10 mission on this planet and that BLOWS IT WIDE OPEN!! It is not a religious comffy session ..it is a training ground to counter the usual impassionate, unentusiastic, complacent, apathetic, passive, indifferent churchian attitude/mentality..and prepare Christian warriors to confront the system of the world and further the kingdom of God. Timid leaders...GET A CLUE!!! Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Ron, Thanks for the input..always great to see little tools to put in my social pocket.. I hope you got my drift on what I was posting on the label thing Quote
Ron Lambert Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 JimBob7, as for the labeling, we all have a natural impulse to know how to classify someone. Our minds automatically seek to do this. The problem, I think, comes when we are too simplistic in our labels, and use them as a form of stereotyping people, so we will not even hear what they say if it rises above the label we gave them. We always have to be ready to re-classify people, and we must always recognize that our classifications of people are only provisional. I agree that the worst hindrances we face in the church, and the people Ellen G. White said would be our bitterest opponents during the final conflict, are those whom she terms "the superficial conservative class." These are the ones who make their church and its traditions the whole focus and foundation of their faith. In other words, they are guilty of what we might call "churchism." These people, when the shaking causes them to be removed from the church, are the ones who will be ready to unite together and go and take their place among the daughters of Babylon, who also have in common with them the habit of worshipping their churches and church traditions. (See Zechariah 5.) The churchists among us, thus are a far greater problem and danger to the church than are the worldly element, despite all the harm the latter does. Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Here is more which I will share with the class later. You hear this die daily stuff... Ever read in Desire of Ages where it mentions where His experiences are to be our experiences? What about where jesus mentioned....Are you able to drink the cup that I will drink... or take your cross up...??? It is not usually enjoyable to lose friends and many fear to do anything because of the fear of rejection... how do you factor in Jesus words if no one want to get into rebuke or tough love...?? Oh I am sure there will be some lame work around for that too. I even mentioned to confront with love and grace and still I got flak.... For those who are afraid, ashamed or unprepared (due to indifference or willful negligence) look at Mark 8:38 and the group who are thrown in the lake of fire..in revelation.. I have to deal with that too...yet look at 1 Cor 15..where Paul talks about evil communications corrupting good manners Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Quote: I agree that the worst hindrances we face in the church, and the people Ellen G. White said would be our bitterest opponents during the final conflict, are those whom she terms "the superficial conservative class." These are the ones who make their church and its traditions the whole focus and foundation of their faith. In other words, they are guilty of what we might call "churchism." These people, when the shaking causes them to be removed from the church, are the ones who will be ready to unite together and go and take their place among the daughters of Babylon, who also have in common with them the habit of worshipping their churches and church traditions. (See Zechariah 5.) The churchists among us, thus are a far greater problem and danger to the church than are the worldly element, despite all the harm the latter does. Yeah.... this is what I am posting about...thanks Ron.. My individual labels are ready to peel off whenever I see repentence or contrition.. Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 This is another reason why I confronted Mark Finley when he used his time to teach about Laodicea in the main SS class.. The "L" word when used so often is self defeating because it demotivates so many as they assume the label and just wimp out. Here is something I used for the flak/gainsay last sabbath... you know how we are supposed to be one step away from translation before we give the loud cry and final warning? We are supposed to be squeeky clean before we make any outreach efforts or we will come off as looking like hypocrites?? We are supposed to be sermon soaked saints and have a super tremendous relationship with Jesus before we share our faith so we won't OFFEND anyone?? Well if Paul waited until he was ready to be offered at Rome..and waited til he determined to not preach anything except Jesus and Him crucified... LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD HAVE MISSED AT AT MAR'S HILL IN ACTS 17...END OF CHAPTER.. THIS IS SIMPLY SELFISH CARNAL COWARDICE SPEAKING.. when anyone in a SS class tries to counter any outreach endeavors comments ..I automatically activate my TARGETING COMPUTER and the missles are armed Quote
darlene Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 I think, JimBob7, it's called courtesy and respect for other people. It's also called Christ-likeness. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Quote
Guest Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Here is one... The point where we are instructed that Jesus rebuked and had tears in His voice??? So everyone wait til they are Christlike enought to do it only his way... I can see it now.... "YOU DIDN'T HAVE TEARS IN YOUR VOICE SO YOU ARE BADDDDDD" "DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT TO DO UNTIL YOU CAN HAVE TEARS IN YOUR VOICE!" "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE ...SOME WHOLIER THAN THOU , IVORY TOWER RESIDENT?..I DIDN'T HEAR TEARS IN YOUR VOICE" "MOMMY, HOW COME YOU DIDN'T HAVE TEARS IN YOUR VOICE WHEN YOU SAID I DIDN'T MAKE MY BED THIS MORNING?" Quote
darlene Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Tears? Who's talking about tears? Maybe scorn, yes, but tears? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Quote
Anthony! Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 JimBob7, This thread and your posts take the cake. Sorry, even though you have heard it all and seen it all, and with all of your comments here on CA, heaping scorn and rebuke on others, year after year, post after post, setting yourself up as a self-appointed and arrogant 'guardian of the faith' and 'clergy confronter', I am not convinced that you are a well person. Get yourself some help, pal. I'm outta here. Quote
Guest Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I never said I was well.....yet that doesn't really matter... Look at the previous bible passages covered in our Sabbath School lessons... especially where the demons mention that Jesus is the son of God.. Mark 5 "7": And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. "8": For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. "9": And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. The Jewish clergy threw a fit with Jesus works and claims and yet the demons knew who he was. If by posting that I am not well relates to the validity of my posts then that is a significant matter. There are those in conference positions who understand the issues I bring out and they don't dismiss them..they just address them differently..sometimes that is because of retirement and salary issues. Quote
darlene Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Yes, of course some in conference positions listen to you and your concerns. Why not? After all that is the way Christ would respond and most church people honestly want to be Christ-like. I think you have some very valid concerns, JimBob, however, the problem is with how your concerns are worded and the attitude by which they are expressed. If a person approached someone with their concerns from the point of honestly wanting to improve something or a situation that would be one thing but, to approach someone and hammer them over the head with what one considers they are not doing right or to attack someone verbally then that is definitely not Christ-like, now is it? We are all, myself included, to have a humble and teachable spirit, are we not? The purpose for my comments in this thread are not to condem but rather to encourage and support those who are put down by the negative picture painted in some in these threads. Every person has a right to their own views and to express them without attack or condemnation from another. Everyone is a Child of Christ or a potential Child of Christ and we must love and accept them........... and.........to show them the respect that God would, aren't we? Quote
Guest Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I am not saying they listen...what I am mentioning is that they have the same attitude toward the issues...they are genuine problems. I post in an internet shock manner here... when I do a one on one...it is not the same way. Sometimes when in a public forum ..my voice volume goes up to stamp some significance to the issue so it doesn't come across as just a trivial minor issue. This happened last week... Here is what the general theme is... Jesus says let your light shine....whatever that means to the individual heart at their maturity and experience level.. When I hear someone confront the theme with the result being that it promotes timidity, and cowardice..then I speak and I speak strong words.. Trying to hide the light is akin to selfishness and makes one an ally of SATAN "THE ONLY THING NECESSARY FOR THE TRIUMPH OF EVIL IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING" EDMUND BURKE Quote
darlene Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Which method do you feels brings about change? 1) Having someone sharply accuse, harp on a idea, or point fingers or, 2) Having someone speak to another person in a loving, caring manner while pointing out suggested changes? What is the reaction of a person when they are sharply accused, in your face, or fingers pointed at them? Most would become definant and obstinant. That is normal human behaviour. Would that bring about change? Of course not! What is the reaction of a person when they are spoken to in a loving and caring manner while pointing out error or suggested improvements? I don't know about you, but I think I would appologize profusely and then try to change. Now, JimBob, if a person wanted to bring about change in the church or to rebuke someone wouldn't it be best if they spoke quietly to someone in a loving and caring manner instead of using negative confrontation? I wonder which would bring about the suggested, long lasting change? I think it is very obvious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quote
Guest Posted May 5, 2005 Posted May 5, 2005 It is obvious that with the rebellious attitude present, only thermonuclear devices have any chance of working at all. Quote
darlene Posted May 5, 2005 Posted May 5, 2005 Rebellious, eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Quote
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