is the Sunday Law & Mark of the Beast REALLY so important??

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Why did the Apostle John even write about the "mark of the beast"? Was it to give readers an idea that the end of time was coming? If so, there were already plenty of other biblical writings discussing signs of the endtimes.

Was it to emphasize the importance of the Sabbath? If so, why didn't he come out and say it? Why shroud it in mystery?

Really, the "mark of the beast" could signify different things to various peoples.

Adventists say that the Sunday Law will signify the sign of the coming of tribulations and torture of those who keep the Sabbath.

But wasn't the Holocaust also pointedly geared to destroy a group of people? The Jews (and others) were put through horrendous trials, tribulations, and torture. And death.

What about the Inquisition?...it was also created to destroy a group of people.

What about the Rwandan Holocaust? Again, destruction of a group of people who had specific tribal identification..

Why is the Mark of the Beast so important to know about?

It seems to me that the "Sunday Law" will be no more than another reason to persecute a specific group of people. Why is it more important (if, indeed it *is*) than what has happened throughout history?

[CoAspen]

Very good questions!

I think as history goes by before us we should look back and examine positions.

If there was or is nothing more to learn but just validation of currently held beliefs, what is their to learn? Where would be our growth or enlightenment?

Are we moving forward or standing in place!

[teresaq]

Nice topic Rudywoofs and one that should make us think.

[BobRyan]

Why did Noah talk about the flood and the ark? Was it just to emphasize the signs of the times?

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

It could be to help us identify him a little better? For me it seems that if it was not important, why would God want him to write about it?

[Overaged]

Excellent questions Pam. Something to put our thinking caps on about.

To me, given my current understanding, I do not see the mark of the beast in Bible prophecy as "more important; " rather, I only see it as something to watch out for.

Right now, the mark of the beast is not the Sabbath. The prophecy simply points to a time when it will be.

If you think about it, when John penned the Revelation, Sabbath was not then "the mark of the beast;" yet, he told people then (by implication) to not receive it either. The point being that there must be something more than just the Sabbath that would imply or show the devil's mark, or "the mark of the beast." And whatever that something is, is what caused those horrible events of the past which you referred to.

May I ask what makes you/made you think that the "Sunday Law" event is more important than these?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

OA, I **don't** think the "Sunday law" is more important that anything else. But that's what Adventists seem to freak out about....that, and the phrase, "Mark of the Beast."

I was just throwing out some musings. Perhaps I shouldn't have.

@BobR. Bob, I found your reply about why Noah talked about the ark and flood, rather ... odd. Noah was **warning** people about the end of life as they knew it. He was very specific and his words were not veiled in mystery. What was the point of your cryptic comment??

*****

I think perhaps I should leave this topic alone....let it die a natural death...

[Overaged]

Thanks for the clarification. I suspected this is how you were thinking about it. But I did not want to put words in your mouth.

It will be interesting to see what others think of your questions here too. I am glad you brought the topic up.

[Tom Wetmore]

The allusions being made throughout Revelation are an exercise in comparing the genuine with the counterfeit. The symbol of the lamb is contrasted with a dragon, their kingdoms and the followers of each are illustrated. The seal of God is the Holy Spirit. The contrasting counterfeit seal or mark would be an unholy spirit. There is much more to it all than simply an allegiance to a day of the week. It is an allegiance to the Lamb vs. the great impostor of the Lamb. That Lamb spoke plainly in the gospels of what that really meant when he was asked about the end of time by his disciples. Isaiah 58 speaks of the contrast as well.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay

[teresaq]

You asked a really good question Rudywoofs (or would you prefer I call you Pam)and I hope you consider my thoughts. Hmmm, I hope they are worth considering. And coherent. lol

I don't think it is about Saturday vs Sunday so much as it is about one person hating another so badly they would do any and everything to hurt that Person. Saturday vs Sunday is what will be used in the final showdown of that battle.

I don't think God is half upset with idolatry as we think He is. He told the Israelites to leave 3 nations alone, all three deep into idolatry. 2 were their relatives, the third they had just come out of, Egypt. I wondered about that when I first saw that in my readings.

There is a battle between 2 Persons that involve us because our first parents were naive and succumbed to the wiles of the first recorded psychopath. The charming snake. It is a battle between 2 ways of being, of thinking, or acting and reacting and Sunday/Saturday, the worship of God/gods, all involve that.

God hates idolatry because of what Satan was able to lead people to do in the name of religion: prostitution, many times of slaves, people who had no say-so, and human sacrifice which included child sacrifice. I can understand a God Who would hate those things.

Right now those who worship on Sunday do not receive the Mark of the Beast. I don't think God cares that much about it - except for what it might do to us. God isn't the egotist some scriptures seem to portray Him as, or as we ourselves are, and most certainly as Satan is.

Because Satan is the true egotist in this war he is the one who has been working for religious laws all during the centuries, including the Sunday laws still on the books in this country. Satan has always used manipulation, coercion, and control to get his way. Otherwise why make a Sunday law? Who cares what day, one worships on, or if one is worshiping at all?

All the persecutions throughout history have been instigated by the ultra-egotist. The underlying issue is whose character we want, whose character we find attractive. But we have to know what God is really like. Too often we think of him as having the same characteristics as Satan, the difference being that God is "right", or "god", so it's ok.

The battle is over character. The more clearly we see how God really is and Satan really is the better we will comprehend this war and what will happen. (And prayerfully we will find God's character attractive. I know I do when people display that character towards me. Yet when it comes to displaying that character myself it isn't that attractive.)

While it will be one more case of another group of people being persecuted, this time will be the last. This time people will be clearly of one character or the other. This time will be the end of this world, once everyone has decided - is sealed/marked, indelibly etched with one or the other character.

This time it will be world wide and when each person is firmly established in how they want to be those who have Satan's character will attempt to destroy those who have Christ's character but this time God will come rescue them. Those who Satan's character will continue the blame game they have refused to give up and end up destroying each other and this planet.

Even if those who had Satan's character were able to destroy God's people, they would still eventually end up destroying each other and this planet soon after because they will have grieved away (rejected) the Holy Spirit and God doesn't force Himself on anyone. Without the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, that still, small voice that sometimes we heed and prevents untold consequences, there is nothing left to preserve each other or this world.

[phkrause]

Very interesting thoughts teresaq

[Bravus]

My view is that the Sunday Law was a 19th century threat, not a 21st century one. I'll change that opinion when there's some evidence.

[Nic Samojluk]

Don’t forget that the Apostle John was a prisoner waiting to be executed by the Roman Emperor. He needed to write in a manner which the group of persecuted Christians would be able to figure out, but which would be gibberish to the rest of the population.

This reminds me of the following anecdote: There was a group of Adventists in a certain foreign country where evangelism was illegal. Our pastor there would report baptisms in a clever manner. He would write by saying that we had a good year and that our hens did lay a large number of eggs and we have 141 chickens now.

* * *

[Nic Samojluk]

[Responding to Overaged] ... For John, the mark of the beast was the persecution of the saints. Let’s not forget that he was exiled in an island and in danger of being executed at a moments notice by the Emperor.

The mark of the beast points to institutions and organization which do what beasts of prey do: attack and kill the weak and the defenseless. It is a big mistake to apply the “Beast” symbol to a single organization. I believe that it applies to all those who in the past and present have marginalized certain groups of human beings and made it legal to persecute, torture, and kill them.

This is why, I believe that Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Bin Laden, and the Moslem Extremists deserve to be Included among the powers described in the Bible as the “Beast.” Christians are being persecuted, tortured, and killed by the hundreds today in certain Moslem countries where their Sharia law is in force.

Our own country deserves said “Beast” label as well, because it legalized the killing of a large number of Innocent human beings: the unborn.

* * *

It is time that we look ourselves in the mirror instead of focusing our sight on Rome, which has championed so far the cause of the innocents. Ellen White did state many decades ago that our church was in danger of becoming a sister to Babylon.

* * *

[Nic Samojluk]

[Responding to Tom Wetmore] I agree! The role of the Lamb is saving human lives, while the mission of the “Beast” is to persecute, torture, and kill as many followers of the Lamb as possible. This is why Jesus described the Devil as the one who has been a murderer from the beginning.

The self assigned mission of Moslem extremists is to persecute, torture, and kill the infidels—meaning the non Moslems...

[teresaq]

Actually John was on the island of Patmos, at least according to himself. Rev 1:9

All visions are given in symbolic terms for whatever reason. Ellen White said her visions were given to her in symbols. I think we use symbols all the time to express thoughts more clearly, to get the thought across better.

Maybe the intent is to fix it in our mind...

[teresaq]

As was the crusaders before them...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Unless symbols/symbolic terms have an **agreed** meaning to them, (a better word is the German, "einverstanden"), and the meaning has been the same throughout history since the symbol was used, then modern nuances of the symbol aren't necessarily true... imho

I agree with Nic that Hitler, Stalin, et al, might come under the definition of the Beast.

[teresaq]

To use Tom's points about the Lamb and the Beast as used in Revelation it is about two entities. Hitler and Stalin -and any of us who display those traits, wouldn't be the beast itself, rather its manifestations, if I'm using the right word.

We have further on the phrase, "image of the beast". The beast is a particular entity, the image of the beast is just like the beast.

The beast is a particular entity and we all display characteristics of either the Lamb or the beast, most of the time some of each.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

the Lamb = Christ....ergo, the Beast = Satan ??

not really the consummate mystery that people have wrestled with for centuries..

[CoAspen]

[Gail]

One thing about the mark of the beast- people who have not considered Christianity for awhile are asking about it. People who never were Christians are asking. That is opening up doors, and that is a good thing.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, the large themes and imagery are fairly transparent. There is a risk in getting all bogged down on details that are not the essential message of hope for the saints.

[teresaq]

Or non-saints, as in unbelievers.