Scripture says we are predestined - for what?

[JoeMo]

Our Sabbath School class has recently been discussing predestination. One side is of the opinion that we are all predestined for salvation, using supporting scripture such as:

"11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you." (Jer 29:11-12)

" 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2Peter 3:9)

"9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:9)

"28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30)"

See also the first chapter of Ephesians.

Another view others have taken is that some of us are predestined for glory; while others are predestined for destruction, using scriptures such as:

This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,

and of their followers, who approve their sayings.

Selah

14 "Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them." (Psalms 49:14)

"1 Then the LORD said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go! 2 And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: “‘Those destined for death, to death;

those for the sword, to the sword;

those for starvation, to starvation;

those for captivity, to captivity.’" (Jer. 15:1-2)

" 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone'"

8 and,

“A stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for." (2 Peter 7:8)

I tend to side with Group 1 - that we were all destined for salvation; all we have to do is believe and accept it as a free gift from God, secured for us by the blood of Jesus. For if God truly knew me from before creation (" 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."- Eph 1:4), He knew everything I would ever do. Since He already knows everything, He has no "expectations" of me ("expectation" implies uncertainty; and there is no uncertainty with God). I also have a hard time reconciling the mercy and grace of a loving God with the possibility of Him creating some people to simply live a miserable life and then go into oblivion.

This does not mean that I think everyone is saved. It means that salvation is available to all; but we must still embrace it and trust God to mold us into His image.

How thinkest thou?

[Woody]

I am in agreement with what you have stated and sided with. If one has a good understanding of the Great Controversy - we know that ALL are predestined to be saved. That was the plan before the foundations of the earth. It does not mean that all will be saved. It simply means that the plan has been set forth for all those who accept it.

[miz3]

Some good thoughts here JoMo.

However when you use the word "predestination" or any form there of many people get very antsy.

[JoeMo]

Thanks for the kind words, Woody and Miz. I believe this topic can make people antsy - it makes me antsy! That's why I posted this topic. I think it's easy to get off of the narrow path on either side here. Taking predestination too far in either direction can make us too complacent - either thinking no matter what we do we are saved, or thinking we are already condemned, so why even try to please God? I'm much more comfortable trusting Him that I am predestined for salvation. Is that equivalent to believing in "cheap grace"? I also believe that unless that grace is changing me to reflect the character of Christ, I'm not taking full advantage of the grace He offers so freely.

[Naomi]

Quote:

I also believe that unless that grace is changing me to reflect the character of Christ, I'm not taking full advantage of the grace He offers so freely.

JoeMo, BINGO couldn't agree more

[Gail]

How about predestined to grow to our full potential as God sees in us?

[dialoguewithus]

Here's how I understand the matter:

God’s Preference

Proverbs 8:10 (CLV)

‘Take in my admonition, and do not prefer silver, And take knowledge rather than choice, fine gold."

Here we have a definition of “prefer” in the form of a parallel passage; it means to choose one thing rather than another. The dictionary says “to like one thing better than another”.

The Greek [h]air e’ o / [h]air e t iz’ o appears in four places. The first is

Matthew 12:18 (CLV)

“Lo, My Boy Whom I prefer! My Beloved, in Whom My soul delights! I shall be placing My spirit on Him, And He shall be reporting judging to the nations."

It also appears in Phil. 1:22 and Heb. 11:25. The final use is in

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (CLV)

“Now we ought to be thanking God always concerning you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, seeing that God prefers you from the beginning for salvation, in holiness of the spirit and faith in the truth,”

What does it mean that God preferred them from the beginning for salvation? First, they were preferred above others; it’s impossible to prefer all; there must be a “lifting” of one above another, as the root of the Greek word indicates. Paul mentions this dichotomy in Romans chapter 9, and assures us that “it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the merciful.” –Verse 16. Verse 23 informs us that the vessels of mercy are made ready before for glory. Romans 8:28-30 further describes God’s working in those He chooses to enjoy life during the oncoming eons. Therefore, we read in Acts 13:48, “Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian.” You might ask, “By whom were they set for eonian life?” God leaves no doubt in that regard; It is God’s choice in grace. The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him who is calling- Ro. 9:11. See also Ro. 11:5; Eph. 1:4; John 12:37-40.

This separation, or election, which God makes, is concerned with eonian salvation, during the present wicked eon and in the two oncoming, glorious eons. God chooses final and unending salvation for all universally after the eons have run their course. John 12:32; Ro. 11:32; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Col. 1:15-20; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 4:9-11.

[JoeMo]

Hey Gail - I like that! After all, isn't that what we are on earth to do - to act out God's will in our lives? If we put our energy into learning and acting out God's will rather than lamenting who we have (or haven't) been, how much more fulfilling our lives would be! But so many times we get bogged down in guilt and regret (or self-righteousness at the other end of the spectrum) that we can't "hear" or "see" where God is leading us. I don't think obsessing about our unworthiness (or reveling in how much better we are than those around us) gets us anywhere in realizing God's plans for us. We have no control over our past; but we do have some control (by God's grace) over our destiny. So how do we "hear" or "see" God's specific plans for just us (beyond just law-keeping and sin management)? I think it's about developing an intimate relationship with Him. Like with healthy human relationships, the more we communicate with someone (in good times and bad; in self-sinfulness and self-righteousness), the more they communicate with us.

[Naomi]

[cheddar]

"1 Then the LORD said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go! 2 And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: “‘Those destined for death, to death;

those for the sword, to the sword;

those for starvation, to starvation;

those for captivity, to captivity.’" (Jer. 15:1-2)

[dialoguewithus]

“But what about Judas Iscariot? Doesn’t it say it would have been better if he’d never been born?”

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!” It would have been ideal (pleasing and peaceful) for Jesus (the Son of Mankind/Him) if Judas (that man) had not been born. It was nevertheless necessary for him to be born and commit his sin of betrayal in order for scripture to be fulfilled. See Genesis 6:6; John 18:11; Matt. 26:39. (While many Bible versions mistranslate Matt.26:24, some do put the correct rendering in the margin.) Concerning Judas’ title, “son of destruction”, John 17:12, the Greek word is apollumi, often translated, perish or lose. This word is used in the New Testament about 90 times. Many people, animals, and even things are described as being “lost”, “destroyed” or “perished”. It is unwise to assume the word describes “eternal damnation”. “For the Son of Mankind came to seek and to save the lost (apollumi).” Luke 19:10. The book All in All, by A. E. Knoch, is very informative on this and some other important topics, such as the eons, the 3 classes of vivification, “hell”, and “annihilation”. http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=

[dialoguewithus]

Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Predictive Prophecy

“…this which is written must be accomplished…” Lk. 22:37. See Jn. 13:18 and Acts 1:16.

The claim that God doesn’t predestine, but only foreknows, changes nothing, really. Events without a cause cannot be foreseen, nor foretold. An event which God foresees will occur, must occur; there can be no doubt about that. Whatever the causes might be, there is no uncertainty. So a foreseen event and a predestined event would not differ in this regard.

On the other hand, we have the theory called “free will”. Free will events, according to the theory, never have to occur, and it can never be said with certainty that they will occur. Therefore, free will events are the opposite of prophesied events; the two theories are antithetical, and one must be false. Since foreknowledge is scriptural, free will must be mythical.

Ro. 8:20, 28-30.

Isaiah 26:12 (CLV)

“Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, for, moreover, all our doings You do contrive for us.” See Rev. 17:17.

Scripture: “Not concerning all of you am I speaking, for I am aware whom I choose, but that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who is masticating bread with Me lifts up his heel against Me.' Henceforth I am speaking to you before it is occurring, that you should be believing, whenever it may be occurring, that I am." John 14:18, 19.

Myth: “Judas didn’t have to betray Christ.”

[Lysimachus]

I love how W.W. Prescott explains Predestination:

• THE ELECTION OF GRACE

  Let me say that in this idea is bound up the whole question of predestination. There is a predestination; it is a predestination of character. There is an election; it is an election of character. Every one who believes on Jesus Christ is elected, and all the power of God is behind that election, that he shall bear the image of God. Bearing that image, he is predestinated to all eternity in Christ's kingdom; but every one who does not bear the image of God is predestinated unto death. It is a predestination of God in Christ Jesus. Christ provides the character, and offers it to any one who will believe in Him. {January 13, 1896 WWP, BEST 12.8}

:D

[Woody]

Quote:

What about Judas?

Praise the Lord - Judas was predestined to be saved along with the rest of us.

[dialoguewithus]

"Judas was predestined to be saved along with the rest of us."

At the consummation or "end" of vivification, yes. 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

During the millenium and the New Jerusalem eon, no.

…He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will, for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved –Eph. 1:4-6

that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. –Eph. 2:7-10

God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. –Ro. 11:8

Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. –Ro. 9:18

…for not for all is the faith -2 Thes. 3:2

Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? –Ro. 9:21

These verses point out the dichotomy presently prevailing among mankind. God has divided us into two parts, according to His wise plan.

[cheddar]

The claim that God doesn’t predestine, but only foreknows, changes nothing, really. Events without a cause cannot be foreseen, nor foretold. An event which God foresees will occur, must occur; there can be no doubt about that. Whatever the causes might be, there is no uncertainty. So a foreseen event and a predestined event would not differ in this regard.

On the other hand, we have the theory called “free will”. Free will events, according to the theory, never have to occur, and it can never be said with certainty that they will occur. Therefore, free will events are the opposite of prophesied events; the two theories are antithetical, and one must be false. Since foreknowledge is scriptural, free will must be mythical.

I agree with the first part but disagree with the second.

Foreknowledge and freewill can both happen at the same time.

God knows all of our choices for lack of a better word from birth till death but he still lets us make them.

The fact that many will be lost proves that we have freewill. Do you believe that some will be lost? I've read thru some of your posts but they're kind of confusing.

Judas was predestined to betray Christ but it was Judas that did the betraying not God.

[dialoguewithus]

cheddar,

We all make choices, because we all have "wills"; few if any would dispute that. I don't believe our will is "free" in the sense that we can choose what we do not prefer to choose at any given moment for whatever reasons or causes that may exist at that moment. Judas chose to betray Christ, just as the OT and Christ predicted he would; he could not have chosen otherwise than he did. Judas sinned in betraying Christ, and several were guilty in His murder, but God used their actions for good. "This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate" Acts 2:23. If free will means we can choose either "a" or "b" and it's entirely up to us, and it's not due to any cause or causes, then that choice is unpredictable. And if God predicts something will occur, it will. If God knows all our choices ahead of time (and He does, including in the cases of the Adversary and Adam), then those choices must be caused by something; random acts cannot be predicted.

The fact that some will be lost during the eons of the eons (not eternally) doesn't prove that we have free will, it only proves that we won't all choose Christ during this life. In fact, hundreds of millions of little children (among others) have perished without even hearing His name. Nevertheless, we have the promises of Jn. 1:9 and 12:32, so this life is not the end of the story for the lost.

[Dr. Rich]

There is no such thing as being predestined as that is what Satan would want people to believe. Eph. 1 was not correct because God gave all of us free will to choose to obey or not. It's just that simple.

[Woody]

It's both. Predestination and Choice.

[Dr. Rich]

It's both. Predestination and Choice.

Can't be both.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

It's both. Predestination and Choice.

Can't be both.

Most certainly can and is. But one must have a full understanding of the Great Controversy to grasp it.

[Dr. Rich]

Discussion of predestination usually involves consideration of whether God is omniscient, or eternal or atemporal (free from limitations of time or even causality). In terms of these ideas, God may see the past, present, and future, so that God effectively knows the future. If God in some sense knows ahead of time what will happen, then events in the universe are effectively predetermined from God's point of view. This is a form of determinism but not predestination since the latter term implies that God has actually determined (rather than simply seen) in advance the destiny of humans. It is absolutly impossible for predestination to exist while humans are free to choose.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is absolutly impossible for predestination to exist while humans are free to choose.

I have to totally disagree with you on this one.

God predestined our salvation before the foundations of the earth. It just means that he made a way for all to be saved. However - at the same time - he knew that not all would accept His plan.

[Woody]

Not only does Eph. 1 make this clear - but so does our prophet:

“ Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan.” {DA 834.2}

Eph.1: 5 +6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

[cheddar]

cheddar,

We all make choices, because we all have "wills"; few if any would dispute that. I don't believe our will is "free" in the sense that we can choose what we do not prefer to choose at any given moment for whatever reasons or causes that may exist at that moment. Judas chose to betray Christ, just as the OT and Christ predicted he would; he could not have chosen otherwise than he did. Judas sinned in betraying Christ, and several were guilty in His murder, but God used their actions for good. "This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate" Acts 2:23. If free will means we can choose either "a" or "b" and it's entirely up to us, and it's not due to any cause or causes, then that choice is unpredictable. And if God predicts something will occur, it will. If God knows all our choices ahead of time (and He does, including in the cases of the Adversary and Adam), then those choices must be caused by something; random acts cannot be predicted.

The fact that some will be lost during the eons of the eons (not eternally) doesn't prove that we have free will, it only proves that we won't all choose Christ during this life. In fact, hundreds of millions of little children (among others) have perished without even hearing His name. Nevertheless, we have the promises of Jn. 1:9 and 12:32, so this life is not the end of the story for the lost.

I see what you are saying and I agree for the most part except that all will be saved after the lake of fire.

The concept of being ‘in Christ’ does mean that we do give up our freewill to some degree.

I like the way Jesus put it when he said that we can only serve one master. If Christ is our master then we only live to do the will of the master not our own and vise versa if Satan is our master then we only live to do his will.

Human beings have freewill up until a final decision is made either for Christ or against him. After that point is reached then our wills are no longer ours.

We view slavery today as something terrible but the truth is that we are all slaves to something or someone, good or bad.