Scripture says we are predestined - for what?

[dialoguewithus]

“Not you choose Me, but I choose you…” John 15:16

“Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.

This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be. All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13). Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains.” -Snippet from the Concordant Commentary (http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)

Romans 3:11; 10:20; Jn. 6:65.

[Dr. Rich]

“Not you choose Me, but I choose you…” John 15:16

“Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.

This basic truth is much more forcibly revealed later on in connection with the call of the nations. We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be. All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13). Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He restrains.” -Snippet from the Concordant Commentary (http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC04_John.htm)

Romans 3:11; 10:20; Jn. 6:65.

It's my opinion that Satan wants people to believe that God is so loving and full of grace that He will not kill, but save you. Isn't that the same thing Satan said to Eve? Now this same concept has been packaged into warm fuzzy sayings will feel good wrapings on it. Jesus said He did NOT come here for this type of thing, but the opposite. Try reading His words for a change and then consider what Paul wrote in Eph. 1 AND in Rom. 11 (all Israel being saved) as being correct.

I choose the words of Jesus every time as I know He never lied!

[BobRyan]

JoeMo - excellent opening post!

As your texts point out - no support in the Bible for the wicked in the lake of fire - going to heaven "anyway".

Rather Matt 7, Matt 18, Ezek 18, 2Cor 5:10 1Cor 6 ... ( almost the entire Bible ) - makes it clear that universalism is not Biblical and that even Calvinist OSAS does not work as we see in the Matt 18 and Ezek 18 cases.

[dialoguewithus]

2 Cor. 5:10 I associate with 1 Cor. 3:10-13.

The allotment of God's kingdom of 1 Cor. 6:10 I equate with governing, which would be a wage, beyond the gift of eonian life. And of course there are those who pretend to believe (and may even convince themselves), but God knows those who are His.

“Once you realize that John 3:17 is a statement that stands on its own as 100% true and is 100% corroborated and explained in detail by many other plain statements in Scripture, you can then read John 3:16 and realize that it cannot possibly change the meaning of John 3:17. Jesus made both statements clearly as 100% true, without negating, qualifying or “adjusting” either one.

Of course there will be people who try to explain away John 3:17 by claiming that verse 16 changes the meaning of verse 17 – in other words, they claim that although God and Jesus wanted and intended to save the whole world (verse 17), they will fail at that goal because only certain people who believe will end up being saved (verse 16).

People who make this claim are missing three massively important things:

1. In verse 16 Jesus did not say that the penalty for not believing is eternal damnation and the reward for believing now is eternal life. He said that the penalty for not believing is death and the reward for believing now is eonian (pertaining to an age or ages) life. (“Eternal” is a blatant mistranslation; for example see how “eon” is used in 2 Cor. 4:4 and you will see it cannot possibly mean “eternal” or “forever”).

The very fact that Jesus used the phrase “eonian life” in John 3:16 to describe the reward of those who believe, tells us that He is talking about those who believe in Him before the next two eons – the kingdom of God. In John 3:16 Jesus was talking about those who would have faith in Him now in this current age, so as to obtain life in “the kingdom of God” (the next two ages of life on earth, the millennium and the New Jerusalem age) and so as to avoid being dead during those two ages. Of course, those who do not believe in Christ now will be dead during those two ages and will not enjoy a part in the “kingdom of God” (Christ’s reign on earth, see Acts 1:6-7 & Rev. 19:11-20:6). (See Part 1 of this article to learn why Jesus was constantly warning the Israelites living 2,000 years ago about “not perishing” at the beginning of His earthly reign.)

Bottom line, John 3:16 says nothing about eternity or eternal destiny; it is only about having faith now so as to take part in the next two ages of life on earth (“the kingdom of God”, “not perishing” but being alive during those two ages).”

http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/Erasing-Hell-book.html

[Dr. Rich]

It's "Trust AND Obey, for there is NO other way...."

[dialoguewithus]

...to be happy in Jesus

2 Thessalonians 3:13 (CLV)

Now you, brethren, should not be despondent in ideal doing.

1 Timothy 6:18 (CLV)

to be doing good acts, to be rich in ideal acts, to be liberal contributors,

Titus 2:7 (CLV)

tendering yourself a model of ideal acts, in teaching with uncorruptness, gravity,

Titus 2:14 (CLV)

Who gives Himself for us, that He should be redeeming us from all lawlessness and be cleansing for Himself a people to be about Him, zealous for ideal acts.

Titus 3:8 (CLV)

Faithful is the saying, and I am intending you to be insistent concerning these things, that those who have believed God may be concerned to preside for ideal acts. These things are ideal and beneficial for humanity.

[BobRyan]

“Not you choose Me, but I choose you…” John 15:16

“Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal.

In John 15 Christ is not talking about salvation - he is talking about the call to be an Apostle.

But in John 1 we find "He came to HIS OWN and his own received Him not".

In Matt 23 "Oh Jerusalem ... how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not".

The Bible emphasis is not on "arbitrary selection" but rather the choice of man refusing that which God offers.

Thus in John 3 - the light that coming into the world is rejected because "men loved darkness rather than light for their deeds were evil".

And so in Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in".

Christ's offer of fellowship is not an offer to breakdown the door and do as He pleases - but to wait outside for the sinner who is alone on the inside - to choose to open the door.

And so in Romans 10 "with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation".

In Matt 18 the great debtor is fully forgiven - but then in that fully forgiven state refuses to forgive others - and later has his forgiveness revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

[dialoguewithus]

John 1:

9 It was the true light - which is enlightening every man - coming into the world. 10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through Him, and the world knew Him not. 11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not. 12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name, 13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God.

John 12:

37 Yet, after His having done so many signs in front of them, they believed not in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet, which he said, may be being fulfilled, "Lord, who believes our tidings? And the arm of the Lord, to whom was it revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, seeing that Isaiah said again 40 that He has blinded their eyes and callouses their heart, lest they may be perceiving with their eyes, and should be apprehending with their heart, and may be turning about, and I shall be healing them.

Luke 22:42 (CLV)

saying, "Father, if it is Thy intention, carry aside this cup from Me. However, not My will, but Thine, be done!"

[dialoguewithus]

JoeMo said “One side is of the opinion that we are all predestined for salvation”

And “Another view others have taken is that some of us are predestined for glory; while others are predestined for destruction”

I believe that both, taken in their proper context, are true.

That we are all predestined for ultimate salvation is clear from texts such as 1 Cor. 15:20-28, 1 Tim. 4:10, Jn. 12:32, Col. 1:20, Eph. 1:10, Ro. 5:18, 19, and Phil. 2:9-11. These verses refer to God’s ultimate goal which is subsequent to the millennium and the New Jerusalem eon, during which time some of us are predestined for glory; while others are predestined for destruction. Most readers are well aware of the “proof-texts” for the two groups now in existence. The fact that this is predestined to be so is indicated in verses such as 2 Thes. 2:13 (showing God’s preference of some for eonian salvation).

While some have accused Christian universalists of “wishful thinking” with regards to the ultimate salvation of all, we are simply taking God at His word. For God to claim that He “wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth” (see 1 Tim. 2:1-6), knowing full well that that won’t happen (as many claim) would be wishful thinking. God not only wills it, but “All that Yahweh delights He does, In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss” Ps. 135:6. (See Is. 46:9-11; Matt. 19:25, 26) To sum up the matter, eonian salvation is for some, while “eternal salvation” is for all.

Regarding the claim made by some that 1 Cor. 15:22b is referring only to those who accept Christ during this life, this is disproved by the Greek text. http://interlinearbible.org/1_corinthians/15-22.htm shows that verse 22a has “en to Adam pantes”, while 22b has “en to christo pantes”. The only difference is the medium through whom death is passed to all mankind (Adam), versus the Medium through Whom immortality is passed to all mankind (Christ). If we are to interpret this according to the partialist rendering, we must consistently render it thus: “For even as, all those believing in Adam are dying, thus also, all those believing in Christ shall be vivified.” This, of course, would exempt atheists, Buddhists, and Hindus from death.

[Dr. Rich]

Not only does Eph. 1 make this clear - but so does our prophet:

“ Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan.” {DA 834.2}

Eph.1: 5 +6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Adventists do NOT have any prophet--as EGW also said she was NOT a prophet. If you want to make her YOUR prophet, that is your choice.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Not only does Eph. 1 make this clear - but so does our prophet:

“ Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan.” {DA 834.2}

Eph.1: 5 +6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Adventists do NOT have any prophet--as EGW also said she was NOT a prophet. If you want to make her YOUR prophet, that is your choice.

Good Point - well taken Dr. Rich.

[JoeMo]

Sorry about not responding to posts the past few days. I was in northern NM without a computer or internet access.

Having read all the new posts from 3/21 onward, you all have given me much food for thought. One thing that interested me was the remarks about EGW in the previous few posts. I have felt that way for a long time; but was afraid of the potential repercussions for stating such a blatant "heresy". EGW may have had the NT gift of prophecy; but she never held the OT "office" of prophet. Indeed, as stated by Woody, she never even liked the idea of being called a prophet. While she was alive, it seems like most SDA leadership didn't even like her. That's why they sent her off to Boulder, CO and then Australia. We can probably thank the White Estate for her postumous designation as "Prophet".

The diversity of the above comments has givin me a new thought - is it possible that, at the judgement resurrection at the end of the Millenium, when God reveals Himself clearly to all who have ever lived, that all who did not take part in the first resurrection will have an opportunity to make an informed decision on whether to accept Christ? And then their judgement would be based on the decision they make at that time rather than on a decision they never had a chance to make during their earthly lives. In my human thinking, sometimes I think it would be unfair for God to all of the "unsaved" throughout earth's history who had never even heard the name of Jesus off to oblivion. Of course, God is God; and His sense of fairness trumps mine. But, if we are all predestined for salvation, doesn't it make sense that we should all have an equal opportunity to hear God's case and make an informed, intelligent decision for or against His Kingdom?

BTW - Dr. Rich: I never acknowledged your greeting to me in the "pigeonhole" thread before it was shut down. Yes; I have seen that big bull elk head mounted at Glacier View (Nice shot!). I haven't been up there for a while; I hear it's in ill repair. My view is that the place was kind of cursed after the way they treated Des Ford up there in the 1980's.

[dialoguewithus]

JoeMo, I think Jn. 1:9, 29; and Titus 2:11 are applicable here. I like what Martin Luther said: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." (Martin Luther’s letter to Hans von Rechenberg, 1522.)

[JoeMo]

I like that DWU. It's so nice to dialogue with so many well-informed and open-minded people!

[dialoguewithus]

My respects, JoeMo.

[BobRyan]

Our Sabbath School class has recently been discussing predestination. One side is of the opinion that we are all predestined for salvation,

God "is not WILLING that any should perish" so we know the will of God on this one.

But God says that "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven" Matt 7 - in fact He says it is the FEW - and not the MANY that enter heaven.

And so while all are predestined in the Gospel for salvation - not all are going to heaven and God says He already "foreknows" that outcome in each case.

in Christ,

Bob

[dialoguewithus]

“"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"? And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.

No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"--and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).

So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10).”

-A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace

Death Swallowed Up in Victory

By Dr. Loyal Hurley