Moderators Bravus Posted April 1, 2012 Moderators Posted April 1, 2012 ...which is the flip side of my observation that if a belief in creationism forces a person (on pain of perdition) to deny reality in one area it gets easier to deny reality in other areas. Truth is important
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Leviticus 18 and 19 (btw, no death penalty: banishment. Good to *read* it before you use it to make other people's lives miserable) 1. I referenced Lev 18 to show that Cameron's statement on the subject of homosexuality was directly from the Bible - not just his own idea for whatever odd reason - the way that Morgan seems to want to imagine it. 2. The post from you quoted above is looking for the penalty for that particular thing (that the Bible calls an abomination in Lev 18) -- you will find it in Lev 20:13. I agree with you that it is good to actually read the whole thing before making some kind of accusation. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 ...which is the flip side of my observation that if a belief in creationism forces a person (on pain of perdition) to deny reality in one area it gets easier to deny reality in other areas. To be more precise - you claim that the Bible is wrong in both areas. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 1, 2012 Moderators Posted April 1, 2012 Well, yes, that has already been stipulated. It's not even in question. My point is broader: creationists are over-represented among climate change deniers and conspiracy theorists of all kinds. Once you kick the reality habit, you can believe anything, because evidence is no longer relevant. Truth is important
Neil D Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 IOWs, just because you 'stretch the truth to suport your position" doesn't mean that your position is Gospel. If you lie a little, you will lie a lot when you need to. Therefore, if you lie, you do your credibility AND your position no good. Would that be a fair summation? Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Well, yes, that has already been stipulated. It's not even in question. My point is broader: creationists are over-represented among climate change deniers and conspiracy theorists of all kinds. Once you kick the reality habit, you can believe anything, because evidence is no longer relevant. Now you are simply ad libbing in your denigration of Bible believing Christians. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 IOWs, just because you 'stretch the truth to suport your position" doesn't mean that your position is Gospel. I missed the part where Morgan claimed that the Bible never said what Cameron claimed. In this case - Bravus' "well then the Bible is wrong" idea is close to what Morgan seems to be arguing. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Neil D Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Bob, All I did was reflect his words back to him, and give him some assurance that Truth is truth where ever you find it....Whether a muslim utters "God is great" to a Christian singing "How great is our God." And what have you been doing? No, I have a better idea...let me tell you of a family of Adventists who left the church because they got tired of the back biting and the "one-up-manship" of arguing...Good people, loving people, still praying and loving God...but not going to church, and yet, the church is still relavent in thier lives...They were both raised Adventist. went to schools that solely adventist...got thier degrees from Adventist universities....but the church destroy thier confidence in thier own church......So they left....They hold no grudges...they support where they can, but they don't want to fight anymore...they are weary of fighting....and they just wont go to church anymore....These people are the same as Bravus....they lost the confidence of thier church... What are you doing to build that confidence? ...or are you interested in your own confrontational ideas first..... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 I am interested in truth not "error for the sake of political correctness". Those who follow Christ and love Christ - love He who "is the way the truth and the life" John 14. Those who claim to know and follow Christ will obey his commandments according to 1John 2 - and if they rage against them instead - they are simply demonstrating that their claim to know and love Christ is not true (according to John in that chapter). I am simply stating the facts as accurately as possible. But in 2Thess 2 Paul says that there are those at the end of time - who "do not have a love of the truth". Paul tells Timothy that the time comes at the end - when people simply choose to gather to themselves preachers that will teach a smooth "peace and safety" tickle-your-ear message. Clearly I am not complying with that kind of agenda - and I freely admit it. In Matt 10 Christ said "think not that I have come to bring peace but rather a sword". Christ said that our own family members will oppose us - should we dare take a stand in favor of the truth. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Neil D Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Trouble is that YOUR point of view is not the ONLY point of view...You are human, and humans are error prone...especially when it comes to relationships...even on the media limited internet.... And while you have come here to slash with your sword anyone who doesn't have a love of the truth, remember what Christ did on His way to the cross when someone sliced off an ear...Christ said "Put your sword back where it belongs. All who use swords are destroyed by swords. Don't you realize that I am able right now to call to my Father, and twelve companies—more, if I want them—of fighting angels would be here, battle-ready?" All I have to say is that this is NOT your fight..... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
doug yowell Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Very happy on this side of the line with the sane and compassionate.Meaning?
doug yowell Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Hetero sex also is not accompanied by the emotional feelings of shame and alienation from the society itself
doug yowell Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 . Why, the efficacy of homosexual parenting is even backed up by scientific studies.Maybe the studies weren't exactly balanced, Not saying they weren't but if we are to believe the Bible account of Divine Design (which you're trying to convince us is bogus)the study results would be contradictory to human efficiency. Isn't it reasonable for a person who believes in the Biblical account of creation to assume that when God made them male and female and said "be fruitful and multiply"that there was a good reason why men can't be mommies? Yet the battle to render the differences between male and female irrelevant continues.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 1, 2012 Moderators Posted April 1, 2012 Originally Posted By: Bravus Very happy on this side of the line with the sane and compassionate. Meaning? It was a response to olger's comment that I've 'crossed an eternal line'. I'd have thought the meaning was pretty clear. Truth is important
doug yowell Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 (if pharyngula is any clue). It's not for me. Is it like influenza? How bout that stuff that gets caught in your throat? Or the stuff the cops find in your car that you're not supposed to have?
CoAspen Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 We have many dead horses......that is why all the wandering around!!
doug yowell Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Very happy on this side of the line with the sane and compassionate.... a response to olger's comment that I've 'crossed an eternal line'. I'd have thought the meaning was pretty clear. So that means that Og is insane and uncompassionate because you reject the Bible authority on human sexuality and eternal life? Actually, given all the things that the Bible says about it's own reliability it's not so crazy for someone who believes in it to make that comment,right? And for someone who believes that they are right and the Bible is wrong it would be crazy for them to argue otherwise.How can you be absolutely sure that Og has crossed that line? Can you produce some evidence that he's nuts and non=compassionate? Are you taking over the role of Piers vs. Kirk?
M. T. Cross Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Doug that brings up a very interesting point. An observation of mine is that one of the things I have seen very little of on these forums is compassion. That of course does not apply to everyone here, but it was one of the things that has really stood out to me as an over all missing element.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 1, 2012 Moderators Posted April 1, 2012 Originally Posted By: Bravus Very happy on this side of the line with the sane and compassionate.... a response to olger's comment that I've 'crossed an eternal line'. I'd have thought the meaning was pretty clear. So that means that Og is insane and uncompassionate because you reject the Bible authority on human sexuality and eternal life? Actually, given all the things that the Bible says about it's own reliability it's not so crazy for someone who believes in it to make that comment,right? And for someone who believes that they are right and the Bible is wrong it would be crazy for them to argue otherwise.How can you be absolutely sure that Og has crossed that line? Can you produce some evidence that he's nuts and non=compassionate? Are you taking over the role of Piers vs. Kirk? You've misunderstood me. I didn't say *he* has crossed any line at all. He said I have crossed one. I understood that to mean that I used to be on the same side of the line as him, and now I am not. Now with that mental model cleared up, the 'sane' comment is about reality and the denial of same: read some of my exchanges with BobRyan in this same thread for my views on that issue, which I think I've been pretty clear about. The 'compassionate' is simply the ability to empathise with homosexual people (the topic under discussion) and people unlike me in general. Holding the views that are being promulgated in this thread is, indeed, evidence of lack of compassion. The fact that the Bible shares that failure of compassion does not make it compassionate. It just makes it Biblically uncompassionate. You work so hard to weasel these things out of me as though they were confessions, when I've been clear open and honest in everything I've said in the thread. Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted April 1, 2012 Moderators Posted April 1, 2012 The fact that Bob seems to think it is about 'political correctness' is an example: his motivation seems to be keeping in good with the flock, so he assumes that is the motivation of others. The notion that the motivation for straight people like me to champion the rights of gay people is because we believe it is the only just thing to do, based on an empathic understanding of their situation, not only does not occur to him independently but is not understood (or is assumed to be false) when it is explained. Truth is important
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 "Just the thing to do" -- "political correctness in" and -- "Bible wrong". As you said -- in your model "the Bible is wrong". This is the easy part of the point I am making. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Originally Posted By: BobRyan (if pharyngula is any clue). It's not for me. Is it like influenza? How bout that stuff that gets caught in your throat? Or the stuff the cops find in your car that you're not supposed to have? hee!hee! Very funny. Try this one instead - in this case P.Z Meyer's pharyngula site is talking about SDAs and LSU. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/11/educate_la_sierra_in_the_truth.php John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Trouble is that YOUR point of view is not the ONLY point of view... Cameron was not simply stating his POV - he was stating what the Bible said on this topic. Morgan apparently was hoping that support for the Bible on this subject would get Cameron roasted. Apparently it did to some degree. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
M. T. Cross Posted April 1, 2012 Posted April 1, 2012 Here is what continues to confuse me. Many Christians believe homosexuality to be a sin. I don't agree at all, but its not my place to tell you what you should and should not believe. But you all believe a great number of other things are sins. As a matter of fact you believe that to worship as I do is a sin. Yet I don't see anyone harping about those "sins" like is done with homosexuality. Why do we not have extensive threads about the absolute desctructive effects of infidelity within marriages? Seriously - I think husbands and wifes cheating on each other is so very very more damaging than if Bill and Bob decide to have a romp in the hay together. So many more people get hurt, so many more have thier lives torn apart. The two things that get beaten to death more than anything else seem to be homosexuality and Womens Ordination. Which to me screams a whole lot of misogyny.
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