I still believe this

[Stan]

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

[Woody]

ok

could you explain a little more?

[Dr. Rich]

And....? What is your point? Sure the family of God is ONE God. Don't we all know that?

[Gibs]

Due. 6:4 is known as the "Shema", it's a proclaimtion to Israel and the KJV hits it fair and square,

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

It is saying The Yahweh our elohiym is one Yayweh!

elohiym el-o-heem',

plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.,

Isaiah even makes it plainer, Isa. 44:6,8, KJV,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Yahweh King Of Israel and Yahweh Of Hosts are one, even Jesus tells us that. EGW says they are of ONE substance.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Neil D]

And yet we have

God, the Father

God, the Son

God, the Holy Spirit

...in our doctrines....three separate Beings and yet we have this declaration of God being one......

A riddle...?

[Dr. Rich]

not at all. How many people are in you're ONE family?

[Gibs]

No riddle at all, it was the Father who was in Jesus Christ making him God with us. The Holy Spirit is God, read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And, 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

He has choosen to represent Himself to us in triune is all.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

And....? What is your point? Sure the family of God is ONE God. Don't we all know that?

No. Many if not most of our Protestant brethren seem to think that God has Jewish people and Gentile people. The former have laws applicable only to them (Sabbath & health laws) that the latter are not required to keep.

[Guest]

No riddle at all, it was the Father who was in Jesus Christ making him God with us. The Holy Spirit is God, read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The same power that we can have now!

[Gibs]

No Gerry most are trinitarians and think there is more than one God and that is a mistake.

Here is the crux of the matter, has the Son shown all yet who he and the Father are yet? No not all have caught it yet!

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Read more in my comment just above Gerry's.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

I think it was Richard Feynman who said that the further a conclusion is from the raw data, the more likely the conclusion is wrong.

The topic here is "who is the real, true God?" The best answer will be a piece of data that directly answers the question. Bad answers will be data that need deductions to get to the answer because none of the pieces of data directly answer the question. Every piece of data used to get to an answer should be assigned a weight - does it address the topic, how directly does it answer the question, how much must one add to the data in the way of deductions to get to the answer, how much other support does it need? One piece of data with a weight of 10, or 100 if that is your scale, is enough to definitely resolve the truth about a certain topic.

Is there a piece of data of maximum weight in the Bible on the topic of who is the real, true God?

Quote:

ACV: John Chapter 17

[3] And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

Here we have

• Jesus talking
• to the Father
• saying the Father is the only true God
• creating a distinction between himself (Jesus) and the Father by talking about the Father as the one who sent and himself as the one who was sent
• excluding both himself (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit from being the only true God

That's it, end of story - a clear, direct answer to the question. This answer cannot be interpreted in any other way. Even smoke and mirrors won't help here.

The trinity only exists because of the ability of theologians to hold contrary views and find nothing wrong with it and their absolute lack of clear reasoning ability and the ability to recognize facts. Theologians and philosophers think words create facts.

[Aliensanctuary]

As I see it, the Spirit is a force, not an entity, used by YHVH to manipulate matter and communicate with the universe, and life.

Jesus Messiah was, of course, YHVH's spokesman while on Earth. Jesus was not YHVH, but YHVH did use his voice to speak to the people of Israel.

[John317]

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

I also still believe Deut. 6: 4.

Notice that it literally says, "Our God is one Jehovah," and it uses the same Hebrew word as is used in Genesis 1: 24 to describe husband and wife as "one flesh."

Do you see a contradiction between Deut. 6: 4 and the EGW quotes in Evangelism 614-617 or between Deut. 6: 4 and the SDA FB 2?

[John317]

Check out some excellent posts on the topic:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post535863

[John317]

... John Chapter 17

[3] And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

Here we have

• Jesus talking
• to the Father
• saying the Father is the only true God
• creating a distinction between himself (Jesus) and the Father by talking about the Father as the one who sent and himself as the one who was sent
• excluding both himself (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit from being the only true God

....

But is that what Jesus is talking to His Father about? Is Jesus denying to His Father that He Himself is "true God"? Is He saying He is "false God" or something less than "God"? Isn't Jesus talking, rather, about false gods in comparison with the "living, true God" who made the heavens and the earth?

The fact that Christ was sent here doesn't preclude His being "true God."

Ellen White wrote that Christ is "God essentially and in the highiest sense." How could this be if Christ is in any way inferior or less God than the Father is? If that were the case, Christ would not be "God in the highest sense," would He?

[John317]

As I see it, the Spirit is a force, not an entity, used by YHVH to manipulate matter and communicate with the universe, and life.

Many people think this, but is it in harmony with the Bible evidence?

Consider that the Holy Spirit does many things that only a living, distinct person can do:

1)The Holy Spirit "says clearly" that certain things will happen in the future. 1 Tim. 4: 1.

Again: Hebrews 3:7

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

"Today, if you hear his voice..."

2) The Holy Spirit "spoke" through the mouth of David: Acts 1: 16 (Compare 2 Sam 23: 2)

3) "It seems good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." Acts 15: 28

4) "The Holy Spirit made you overseers..." Acts 20: 28

5) The Holy Spirit sends people out to do missionary work. Acts 13: 4.

6) The Holy Spirit testifies-- Acts 20: 23; John 15: 26.

7) The Holy Spirit makes intercession for us (Romans 8: 21).

8) The Holy Spirit has a will and He communicates His will (Acts 16: 7).

9) The Holy Spirit makes decisions as to whom He will distribute the gifts of the Spirit-- (1 Cor. 12: 11).

10)The Holy Spirit glorified Jesus (John 16: 14). How can a non-being glorify Christ?

12) The Holy Spirit (a) "guides", ( "teaches," and © "convicts."John 14: 26; 16:8,13.

[Aliensanctuary]

Our 5 senses connect us to the universe. Likewise, the 7-fold Spirit of YHVH connects him to the universe. Thus, the LORD, who is not made of flesh and blood, can monitor and store our thoughts, and, communicate with humans via visions and dreams from time to time. This mode of communication is done telepathically. "Prayer", in the future, will link his people to him so he can instruct them on what tasks they need to do for him. That's why Jesus said that "prayer" must be a private communication between God and man.

When the Spirit speaks to men, it is YHVH himself communicating telepathically to them. One could substitute YHVH for Spirit, with no changes in meaning, in the letters included in the NT.

Simply put, today we can communicate with each other via invisible electromagnetic waves, and also use them to control machines, including distant spacecraft. So too, does the Spirit work, but undetectable by human senses and machines, on a scale from the subatomic to the galactic.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

But is that what Jesus is talking to His Father about? Is Jesus denying to His Father that He Himself is "true God"? Is He saying He is "false God" or something less than "God"? Isn't Jesus talking, rather, about false gods in comparison with the "living, true God" who made the heavens and the earth?

A good example of smoke and mirrors, but empty words, still. What Jesus is talking about is very clear: among others Jesus makes the declarative statement that the Father is the only true God. Jesus says nothing about his own (Jesus's) deity, not a thing. Of course, after clearly saying the Father is the only true God it would have been nonsensical to have claimed being a true God himself.

Yes, Jesus was talking about the only true God. Furthermore, Jesus said the Father was that only true God. How could anyone miss that? How is it possible that anyone doesn't possess the grade school logic needed to comprehend this?

As for the essence of the Father, Jesus (as he is now) and the Holy Spirit, we know nothing about that. Everything said about that is just speculation. Where do they live? Are they matter or energy or something else we don't know? Do they breathe oxygen? How do they deal with the passage of time? All talk on that is a waste of time.

When the Jews accused Jesus of making himself a God he corrected them and said he had called himself the son of God.

Quote:

ACV: John Chapter 10

[33] The Jews answered him, saying, We stone thee not about a good work, but about blasphemy, and because thou, being a man, make thyself God.

[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?

[35] If he designated those men gods, for whom the word of God came to be (and the scripture cannot be broken),

[36] whom the Father made holy and sent into the world, do ye say, Thou blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?

I am not my father and my son is not me. The son of God is not God. Forget about biological taxonomy, that doesn't apply to God.

There is a small questionnaire at sdaforums dot org on the trinity. See where that takes you.

As for Ellen White, she said, among others, that the eating of pork causes leprosy. The ancient Egyptians believed that, too. This doesn't do her credibility any good.

[dialoguewithus]

Jesus called His Father the only true God, and Paul says, for us there s one God, the Father. Jesus being the Image of God is understandably referred to as "God". After all, God is Spirit (Holy Spirit) and is invisible; Christ reveals Him to creation. If I say "this is my wife" and point to a photo of her, I'm not speaking literally, I'm speaking figuratively, for the photo is an image of her. How much more the Living Representative and Image of the Invisible power? We read in Is. 44, Rev. 22, etc., of the reign and the throne of God and His Son; nowhere is the throne of a third Person mentioned. The Father is Spirit, yet He has a throne; where is the triple throne mentioned? Where is the third Person in the important revelation of 1 Cor. 15:20-28? Nowhere to be found.

Matt. 1:20 and Lk. 1:35 support the fact that Holy Spirit is God, one and the same. Christ said that His Father was greater than He, and greater than all. Jesus refers to the Father as His God, but the Father never refers to anyone as His God. If I made EGW my final authority, I would align myself with "orthodoxy" as she did, and "conversation over". But biblically, I can't support the Trinity.

[dialoguewithus]

There are some crucial points on which I would disagree with Islam regarding Christ:

1- I believe He is the Savior of all mankind. Islam teaches He is Savior of none.

2- I believe He died and was resurrected. Islam teaches He never died.

3- I believe Christ is the Image of the invisible God. Islam teaches that Mohammed, Christ, and all the prophets are images of God.

[dialoguewithus]

4- I believe Christ existed before the universe did. Islam teaches that His conception was His beginning.

I've read the Quran twice- I'm pretty confident my take on their beliefs regarding Christ are accurate, although, like any religion, they probably don't all hold an identical point of view.

[John317]

.... Jesus says nothing about his own (Jesus's) deity, not a thing. Of course, after clearly saying the Father is the only true God it would have been nonsensical to have claimed being a true God himself.

That is only if your understanding here is correct, and that is precisely what is problematic.

But the Bible says this about Christ:

1) That He is the Lord [Yahweh] who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of His hands. (Hebrews 1: 10. Cf. Ps. 102, 25-27; Isaiah 44: 24)

2) That God the Father called Christ "God." (Hebrews 1: 8)

3) That God the Father commanded the angels to worship Christ (Heb. 1: 6), yet the angels of God commanded John to only worship God (Rev. 22: 9).

4) That Christ is "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2: 14).

5) That "Thomas answered and said to him [Jesus], 'My Lord and my God'" (John 20: 28).

6) That Jesus is "God with us" (Matt. 1: 23).

7) That Christ is called "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1: 1).

8) That "the Word was God" (John 1: 1). As the New English Bible has it, "And what God was the Word was."

9) That Christ is the "EXACT respresentation of God's nature" (Hebrews 1: 3)

10) That in Christ lives continually the "whole fullness of the Godhead in His body" (Col. 2: 9).

11) In addition to the above statements, we have dozens of statements by Ellen White in support of Christ's being fully God. For instance, "Christ is God essentially and in the HIGHEST sense." She also says that Christ is "equal with the Father" and "Christ is the fullness of the Godhead." Since Christ is equal with the Father, and is the fullness of the Godhead, the Father is no more "true God" than Christ is.

Check out pages 614-617 of the book Evangelism.

[epaminondas]

That is only if your understanding here is correct, and that is precisely what is problematic.

I don't have to understand anything, Jesus explicitly said the Father is the only true God That's it, case closed. Obviously, you and all trinitarians don't agree with Jesus, otherwise you'd also say the Father is the only true God. To think that Jesus could be so mistaken.

You all (y'all) should get this into your heads: words don't create facts.

Of your eleven points most don't have even remotely anything to do with who is God.

Ah, well, who cares?

[epaminondas]

Jesus called His Father the only true God, and Paul says, for us there s one God, the Father. Jesus being the Image of God is understandably referred to as "God". After all, God is Spirit (Holy Spirit) and is invisible; Christ reveals Him to creation. If I say "this is my wife" and point to a photo of her, I'm not speaking literally, I'm speaking figuratively, for the photo is an image of her. How much more the Living Representative and Image of the Invisible power?

Your reasoning is far too clear to be acceptable to theology. They'll just read past you and it will be as if you've written nothing. They'll still hold their illogical views, despite you presenting absolute evidence to the contrary. No one will respond with a contrary opinion using anything that makes sense, because that's impossible. What can one do? I've come to the conclusion that there's nothing one can do because stupidity is bigger than all of us. So, why bother? I like the Australian slang term drongo. It sounds nice and explains so much.

I created a forum that tries to attract clear thinkers, sdaforums dot org. Among the people attracted to religion there are many strange ones, even there. I once rotated through a big mental asylum as a medical student. Among my duties was to take histories from the new admissions. I was shocked to find that the vast majority of them (mainly schizophrenics) had religious delusions. It was a very religious country. I thought that if the Biblical prophets were present at that time they would have ended up in that asylum.

[Tobiwan]

I can't help but think that a very large block of time during the first 10K years in Heaven will be spent by small groups of people asking Jesus "Who was right". It will go like this "we (I) thought this way, but they (he) thought, believed this way, who was right. Jesus will look at them, smile and say "Lets sit down under that tree over there, and I will tell you both how it really is."

When discussions come up, it helps me to remember that here, there are always at least two sides to every question. Even in Heaven, the great controversy between Christ and Satan, was over the nature of God. One member or more, loving or harsh, freedom or force, just to name a few.

Because this world has become the stage for the watching and questioning universe, and with so few actors ( 3 ) understanding every aspect of the problems and issues, and knowing God the best, They have had to wear many hats as it were to try and reach those who are watching and trying to decide if they should trust God or Satan.

I like this, As it has been explained to me (subject to future revelations). That before any creation took place, in the council of peace they decided who, what, when, where, and why. They covered all the bases. They also did Their impact analysis and asked "what if someone says, " I don't trust God, I want to leave and go my own way" and "He has laws and I do not want to be told what to do" I do not trust Them to be the boss, I want to be the boss with my friends. They decided one of them would go after anyone who left and try to bring them back. God the Father, Holy Spirit, Son of God, Michael (He who is like God) the archangel, Imanuel, Son of man, Jesus, and more are all roles played for all to understand the impact of saying no to God. They decided that should it ever become necessary, One of them would show, act out, as a demonstration of the impact of leaving God.

Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face and Jesus will say "have I answered all your questions?"