I still believe this

[Dr. Rich]

I can't help but think that a very large block of time during the first 10K years in Heaven will be spent by small groups of people asking Jesus "Who was right". It will go like this "we (I) thought this way, but they (he) thought, believed this way, who was right. Jesus will look at them, smile and say "Lets sit down under that tree over there, and I will tell you both how it really is."

When discussions come up, it helps me to remember that here, there are always at least two sides to every question. Even in Heaven, the great controversy between Christ and Satan, was over the nature of God. One member or more, loving or harsh, freedom or force, just to name a few.

Because this world has become the stage for the watching and questioning universe, and with so few actors ( 3 ) understanding every aspect of the problems and issues, and knowing God the best, They have had to wear many hats as it were to try and reach those who are watching and trying to decide if they should trust God or Satan.

I like this, As it has been explained to me (subject to future revelations). That before any creation took place, in the council of peace they decided who, what, when, where, and why. They covered all the bases. They also did Their impact analysis and asked "what if someone says, " I don't trust God, I want to leave and go my own way" and "He has laws and I do not want to be told what to do" I do not trust Them to be the boss, I want to be the boss with my friends. They decided one of them would go after anyone who left and try to bring them back. God the Father, Holy Spirit, Son of God, Michael (He who is like God) the archangel, Imanuel, Son of man, Jesus, and more are all roles played for all to understand the impact of saying no to God. They decided that should it ever become necessary, One of them would show, act out, as a demonstration of the impact of leaving God.

Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face and Jesus will say "have I answered all your questions?"

But isn't that the reason why Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto His disciples in John 20? Didn't Jesus say that the Holy Spirit's job was to lead (not drag or pull or push) people to 75% of the truth? Oh, I was wrong, Jesus said ALL of the truth. And didn't Jesus say that His words ARE truth? Well then, it's really simple--allow the Holy Spirit to lead you to understand the words of Jesus and there you will have it.

[Tobiwan]

It is for sure that the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. I am not in any way convinced that the present conditions of this world are such a good place for the advanced learning God has planned for us. I think there are places for this kind of continued higher learning to take place "more better" then here.

They are waiting with longing and anxious anticipation for the revelation of those who will trust Them. They are looking forward to the time when They will be able to say "Welcome home Children" wait till you see what I have prepared for you.

[Woody]

Question:

Do we have to become better than all the previous generations? And if so - won't we require something that the previous generations didn't have access to?

[Dr. Rich]

Isn't that wishful thinking? What do you think about the warnings that Jesus gave us in Rev. 21:8 and 22:15? Even believing a lie or practicing a lie will not be healthy for your soul. This is BEFORE you ever make it to heaven to learn the truth from Jesus. Also, notice that the 144k are blameless and no lie were in them in Rev. 14:5? This is even before the time of trouble starts. Just think of that, the 144K will know ALL of the truth prior to the time of trouble. Wow. Kinda knocks the belief that one must wait till they get into heaven to know ALL of the truth?

Personaly, I trust in the words of Jesus over anyone else's words even if they call themself an apostle or prophet.

[Woody]

As for me - I don't and will not know all truth till I am in Heaven. But I do know the Truth that matters and that saves me.

[Tobiwan]

As for me - I don't and will not know all truth till I am in Heaven. But I do know the Truth that matters and that saves me.

I think of it like the math i learned in school 1+1, 9x9 and such for the first few years. fractions were a little more of a challenge, dividing also. Trig and Calc were and are beyond me. Jesus had (and has) lots to teach us and in time or rather in eternity we will be ready and able to learn.

Now I know in part, and when I listen to the Holy Spirit I learn more parts, and finally in Heaven I will have access to all the advanced parts.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Woody

As for me - I don't and will not know all truth till I am in Heaven. But I do know the Truth that matters and that saves me.

I think of it like the math i learned in school 1+1, 9x9 and such for the first few years. fractions were a little more of a challenge, dividing also. Trig and Calc were and are beyond me. Jesus had (and has) lots to teach us and in time or rather in eternity we will be ready and able to learn.

Now I know in part, and when I listen to the Holy Spirit I learn more parts, and finally in Heaven I will have access to all the advanced parts.

Of course I would agree with this, but I was only talking about knowing ALL of the truth in regards to how salvation works. Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler this truth as found in Matthew 19. Keep all of the ten commandments and follow Jesus by reading His words and abiding in them. It's just that simple. Isn't this the 'truth that matters'?

[Tobiwan]

for sure. It really is that easy

[Dr. Rich]

Problem is, too many leaders, pastors and such make it sound very difficult. They want to give massive bible studies to people before allowing them to be baptized. The woman drug before Jesus to be stoned had a real short sermon given to her by Jesus "Go, and sin no more". Now that is simple!

[OzarkWoman]

Problem is, too many leaders, pastors and such make it sound very difficult. They want to give massive bible studies to people before allowing them to be baptized. The woman drug before Jesus to be stoned had a real short sermon given to her by Jesus "Go, and sin no more". Now that is simple!

If it really is that simple then why are so many of us having to do and read so much before being baptized? And why does the SDA church have one sign vows, so to speak, before baptism and all? This isn't just one pator either. This is the whole denomination.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Problem is, too many leaders, pastors and such make it sound very difficult. They want to give massive bible studies to people before allowing them to be baptized. The woman drug before Jesus to be stoned had a real short sermon given to her by Jesus "Go, and sin no more". Now that is simple!

If it really is that simple then why are so many of us having to do and read so much before being baptized? And why does the SDA church have one sign vows, so to speak, before baptism and all? This isn't just one pator either. This is the whole denomination.

It is because the church has chosen to blurr the line between baptism and membership. Most of what you are doing is so that after you are baptized - you will be able to join the church.

I support all that you have to go through to join the church. You need to know what you are joining.

Baptism is simple. It just means that you DESIRE to follow Jesus.

Membership means you accept all the beliefs of the church. So - you kinda need to know what those are that you are agreeing to.

[OzarkWoman]

That is one of the reasons I really HATE organized religion. I already had asked this pastor if he would baptize me without me joining the church? I asked him if he was a pastor for Jesus' word or the church's word first and he told me Jesus of course. Then I asked him why he wouldn't then baptize me in the name of Jesus and such and not worry if I joined the church. It seems in reality he is for the denomination more than just Jesus and God. What with this smoking thing and all, I am about ready to just forget being baptized. I mean, I don't think not being baptized will keep me out of "Heaven", so to speak. I believe it all has to do with my actions after accepting Jesus into my life. I will say that the SDA church is closer than any other denomination of what I have come to believe throughout my life and I have been to many different churches, including studying the Jewish religion and all. It is just too darn bad that their pastors have been taught that it is more important to get members than to get another member of Christ's church.

[Naomi]

OzarkWoman, I continue to wonder, have you been baptized at anytime in your life?

[OzarkWoman]

I have not been baptized by immersion. I was baptized twice when I was a baby, by sprinkling, by the Catholics and by the Episcapalians. They didn't want me to go to purgatory!

My mother was a Catholic and my father was Episcapalian and I was raised in both denominations, which were not that much different in reality. I ended up joining both churches to make my parents happy. By the time my mother died, which was when I was 15, I had stopped going to any church at all. I didn't even start wondering until my latter years of high school and by then I was living with mt school counseler and his family because I couldn't live with my father since I had given birth to his baby. I had a few years that were really rough for me after my mother died.

[phkrause]

Wow sorry to hear this OW, but you can bet no matter what, Jesus loves you.

[Naomi]

OzarkWoman, Please know that I was not attempting to pressure you. I was only asking in an effort to understand the importance of the issue of baptism to you.

I realize how difficult it is to stop smoking and admire you for your desire to do so. I believe it will happen and one day soon you will be an x-smoker. I have known people who say that after years they are still tempted, but it becomes easier.

Each victory will help you become stronger. Be proud of your efforts and accomplishments.

I am ever so sorry that life has been tough. However, it is easy to see that you are a survivor. It takes a strong lady to keep on keeping on. I guess we weren't promised a rose garden but the thorns can hurt!

You joined churches to make your parents, now is your time. You are doing this for yourself. Even though it appears to you that sometimes it is an overkill, I admire your desire to do it right.

I also admire you for your convection and desire to have your pastor be the one to baptist you. Baptism is an important event in your life; one to remember with fond memories for eternity. It appears that you have a good relationship with your pastor and his wife; that is such a blessing.

Keep your faith and courage

[OzarkWoman]

That is ok Naomi. I don't mind. I have a huge amount of baggage and that is what the pastor has been working with me about, along with preparing me for baptism, finally that is.

You see, my mom had been in the hospital for a bit over a year with cancer and heart problems and this was way back when anyone under the age of 16 could not visit patients, much less ones who happen to be ICU. Long story short...I was confined to a girl's juvenile home for 9 mmonths when I was 15 just after my mom's death. They did that because the judge said he didn't know what to do with the likes of me because it was me who pulled the plug on the ventilator because my mother had begged me to do it. I have had to live with that guilt. Now, we add on after I went back home after being let out of the jyuvenile home and then my father raped me and produced a child. By the time I gave birth to my daughter and then about 3 months later my father had the state take her away from me, even though I was not living with him. By that time I was a full blown drug and alcohol abuser and had started smoking and all.

Anyway...I had it rough, yes, but that is no excuse at all for most of my behavior.

[Naomi]

I hear you ... hang in there!

And 48 hours is awsome!!!

[dialoguewithus]

Biblical worship

What is worship and who is to be worshipped? God commanded the angels, “worship Him (Christ), all the messengers of God”. He also declares to the ecclesia at Philadelphia “Lo! I shall be making them that they will be arriving and worshipping before your feet” Revelation 3:9. No one would claim that the members of the Philadelphian congregation are Diety; rather, they receive worship due to their faithfulness to the Diety. So it is clear that worship (Greek proskuneo) is an act of reverence, and the Bible does not limit worship in this sense to Almighty God alone.

Rather, “It is written, the Lord your God shall you be worshipping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service.” –Luke 4:8

Jesus declares:

“Now it is eonian life that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ.” –John 17:3

While the Father does refer to the Son as "God", He never refers to Him as "My God" or "the only true God", as Christ does of the one God, the Father. 1 Cor. 8:6.