Will Waldo Be Saved?

[bevin]

Consider hypothetical Waldo.

Just died in a car accident - hit by a drunk speeding through a red light.

Beloved faithful and loving husband, excellent father, helped his neighbors, donated time and money to the poor, and never broke a single one of the last six commandments.

HOWEVER was an agnostic. Had studied all the evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, and the consequent behaviour of Christian organisations. Decided he liked the founder's philosophy, but lacked sufficient evidence of actual existence. Decided he really disliked the behaviour of the organized christians, and did not want to be associated with them or their actions.

Waldo had been explaining all this to his passenger when the car was struck and he instantly died.

Will Waldo be saved?

/Bevin

[Jeannieb43]

Nice hypo, Bevin.

The only fly in the ointment for me was deciding whether or not your Waldo person even wanted to be saved. IMHO, every person who acknowledges the existence of a Higher Power -- whether or not s/he actually worships that Power in any organized form -- will be saved, unless s/he purposefully acts contrary to the 10C moral code.

But because (it's my belief that) God won't force anyone to live in heaven who would be unhappy there... perhaps Waldo's genetic structure prevents him from even wanting to be around "righteous" people 24/7.

Since you painted him as being a relatively happy person when in the company of other happy people, I decided he would be happy in heaven, so my vote was for Probably. [but I totally see your point: "Christians" who treat people with disdain do tend to dull the attractiveness of their church.]

[Ron Lambert]

Well, I voted for the most unpopular opinion, 50-50. As I see it, it would depend on what choices Waldo would have made in the future, had more evidence come to him, or had he reached the point where he was willing to yield to conviction by the Holy Spirit. Only God can truly read the heart, and I believe God also takes into consideration trends in our character, in our choices, and what these indicate concerning future choices. God will do anything He possibly can to save people.

[Gregory Matthews]

At first glance, I felt the answer was easy. Then I read it again. At this point my resposne is: Such decisions are God's to make. I do not attempt to make them.

[Bravus]

I'm with Gregory: I'm delighted that judgement is God's job, not mine. And not only in the apparently difficult cases, but in every case.

[Gregory Matthews]

I agree with Bravus. The decision is always God's, and not mine.

But, when I first read it, I thought there was a hidden comment that gave us a clue. Then, on second reading, I saw that it was not there.

[there buster]

We simply have no way of knowing. All of the pertinent information is missing.

What we do have, however, gives me significant doubts.

[bevin]

Quote:

---

All of the pertinent information is missing.

---

Interesting. What more do you want to know?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible is pretty clear about the matter. The real question isn't if Waldo will be saved but if my neighbor will be saved and if not, what am I doing to bring him or her salvation.

[there buster]

O.K. I'll do this exactly once.

What information is missing? Oh, just things like the basics of salvation.

Quote:

---

Decided he liked the founder's philosophy

---

O.K. Did he like Confucionism, too? (I do, mainly).

Quote:

---

lacked sufficient evidence of actual existence

---

Quite the rational fellow, isn't he. But makes it kinda hard to 'believe in'(to trust in for salvation) somebody you don't believe in (credit with existence).

Quote:

---

Decided he really disliked the behaviour of the organized christians, and did not want to be associated with them or their actions.

---

It would be interesting to know if Waldo found any organized group worthy of his presence.

Put it all together, and Waldo sounds like a pretty smug fellow. Doesn't sound like he thinks he needs to be saved. We have no evidence he felt any need for salvation, nor that he had identified a savior to do the job.

Apparently still firmly located on the throne of his own heart, Waldo majesterially approves of Jesus' philosophy, but finds the evidence for the existence of the philosopher lacking. He disapproves of those who have taken the name of the philosopher, and who profess an attempt at living it out. Did Waldo make any such attempt, on which to base such a conclusion? Not that we can tell.

In sum, it appears that Waldo 1) Doesn't believe in Jesus' existence 2) Feels no need of a savior 3) Disapproves of those who take on the challenge of Christian living, and 4)Makes no such attempt himself--rather above it all.

Sounds like many a soul who thinks he needs a little moral improvement, not a heart transplant.

Now, we don't know Waldo's heart. We know, like the rest of us his heart was deperately wicked, and deceitful to begin with, and the evidence suggests he had no inclination to avail himself of the one remedy for that problem.

Only God knows what sort of relationship the two had. Based on the evidence supplied, it doesn't look promising.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

and never broke a single one of the last six commandments.

---

"For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Apparently his "commandment-keeping" kept him from needing Christ's righteousness....

Don't leave home without it!

Oh, but he did....

He'll never make it!

[Stan]

Would Waldo enjoy heaven?

[Nicodema]

Bevin, I can't vote. You didn't include my answer as one of the choices.

My answer: "I honestly don't know."

[Pockey]

[]http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/toad3000/waldo.jpg[/]

This Waldo?

[Kevin H]

That is why Ellen White says that it's not the occasional good deed or occasional misdeed, but the general trend of the life. It is also why she discourages us from saying "I'm Saved"

Jesus saves us. Being saved in the "Name" of Jesus means his CHARACTER. The Holy Spirit works on all hearts. Did he reject the Holy Spirit or did he question our cultures and clubs that we call the church? The church is only a vessel for sharing about salvation. It is people who had more facts available to us to look at in making an informed decision (and that information is colored by our traditions and presupositions, especially traditions developed in the dark ages that we think is Christianity)

Jesus said that blasphemy against the Father and Son (which Atheists and Agnostics do) will be forgiven as long as they do not blasphemy the Holy Spirit. If when he sees Jesus and knows him to be his deepest desire through life, and wants to continue that friendship, he will be saved. If on the other hand he's been also rejecting the Holy Spirit, not wanting to know truth, although he will still recognize Jesus as his deepest desire, he will be scared to death of Jesus. Hell is the combination of being attracted to Jesus and wanting to come, but continue to refuse to come. If this is the case, Jesus would be hell fire to him.

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Jesus saves us. Being saved in the "Name" of Jesus means his CHARACTER. The Holy Spirit works on all hearts....

---

That is Catholicism!...That is faith + works = salvation....

Let's try that again:

Jesus SAVED us....We accepted that truth by faith. The Holy Spirit does not add to Christ's perfect righteousness. The Holy Spirit guides...he is there to make effective in our lives "the truth as it is in Jesus"....Hence His work in us is demonstrative...it's experiential - not meritorious.

Rob

[Paul Beach]

Dear individuals,

Mrs. Gray would not deem to guess whether this Waldo person would be saved. After all, it is a decision to be made by Christ alone. He alone knows all the circumstances.

Mrs. Gray was recently contemplating how wonderful it is that our salvation is not based on human consensus or the decision of the local church board.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Gray

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Will Waldo be saved?

/Bevin

---

Since that call has not been given to anyone to make save Jesus Himself, to claim we know is to accept knowledge about Waldo only God has. Therefore He alone will make the determination.

[:"red"] "....man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." [/] 1 Samuel 16:7 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

Subject: Re: Will Waldo Be Saved?

O.K. I'll do this exactly once.

---

Very well thought out, Ed.

Hope you have a happy Sabbath.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

---

God will do anything He possibly can to save people.

---

Seems like the consensus, that it is God's prerogative alone but I'm totally in favor of your answer, Ron.

[:"red"] "The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent." [/] 2 Pet 3:9 NLT

[Guest]

As I read words from you “wishful thinking” people out there telling of the deception you were taught sitting at the feet of pliable Aaron’s in the church, my suggestion to you is [knowing this is the only life you will ever get] is to eat, drink and be merry and them assemble on the resurrection morning after the 1000 years of the obedient people being in heaven looking at your life’s deeds to decide how long you are to suffer in the Lake Of Fire” prepared for the devil and his angels”. Yes, heaven has the rules all mapped out telling in detail of how to get off this planet either alive or dead, “wishful thinking” however does support Adventist authors & hirling shepherds in this life.

As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24. {GC 483.1}

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. {GC 483.2}

[Robert]

Quote:

---

Mrs. Gray would not deem to guess whether this Waldo person would be saved. After all, it is a decision to be made by Christ alone. He alone knows all the circumstances.

---

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Yes, God reads the heart...nevertheless ONLY those who believe will be saved. Those who refuse will remain "under law".

Rob

[Robert]

• -BC- GC11

  -TI- The Great Controversy

  -CN- 28

  -CT- Facing Life's Record

  -PR- 01

  -PG- 484

  While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors.

The question is – “Is Satan right…is he legally right? Yes…while we may not practice & condone certain sins, we are nonetheless still falling short of God’s love – a love that is not self-seeking. Then how can God take believing sinners to heaven when His law justly condemns them?

Legally God can’t…I say this because typically Christianity teaches that Jesus died instead of us. His substitutionary life of righteousness replaces our sinning. Well, legally speaking God’s law will not allow that! His own law states that “the person who sins, he must die.”

So to legally answer the demands of the law God had to put YOU into Christ at the incarnation. For 33 something years Christ defeated the law of sin and death in our corporate, fallen life. That meets only 1/3 the requirement of the law.

But because the humanity that He assumed was fallen, it had to die the wages of sin [the 2nd death]. Therefore death met the 2nd demand of the law…its justice. That meets 2/3 of the law’s requirement.

Not only does humanity stand condemned because of disobedience, we stand condemned because we are sinners by birth. Hence the law requires that we have “holy flesh” or sinless flesh. This Christ did at the resurrection. This last act met all the demands of the law. Hence “in Him” we are complete….Now let’s read on:

• The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.

Again, legally Satan has a right to claim us as his subjects….We are still sinners….How does God handle this situation?

• Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness,

Note that He doesn’t show Satan how good we are, but rather He shows him our faith and penitence! This gives Him a legal right to present “us” (sinners) perfect in Jesus Christ….

• He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name.I have graven them on the palms of My hands. “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.”Psalm 51:17.

  And to the accuser of His people He declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hathchosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father “a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.”

[bevin]

Quote:

---

ONLY those who believe will be saved.

---

Believe in what? What does Jesus himself say about this?

Furthermore, taken to extreme, "belief" itself is an act - and people who belief that they are saved by the intensity of their belief are themselves legalists. They just have a different - but equally impossible to reach - standard.

/Bevin

[Guest]

Robert posted this. "Yes, God reads the heart...nevertheless ONLY those who believe will be saved. Those who refuse will remain "under law"."

==================================

I can agree with most of those words IF they were ONLY assorted correctly in this sentence above.

Yes, God reads the heart and would never allow a mortal into heaven’s eternal bliss with a root of a sinful nature still unsubdued in this life to contaminate others. It is perfect obedience to a law that excluded Moses from being translated to heaven just before crossing Jordan. Those who refuse the conditions that heaven has ordained will remain on this earth what they have ever been, “Commandment breakers”. You people that desire to make up your own rules must have forgotten Jersalem destruction in AD 70 where 1.4 millon stiffneck professed followers were slain. Even while blood was flowing down from their temple's steps, leadership was still hiring false prophets to give their lieing report that "God was going to save them anyway". Just didn't happen folks! The only difference now "since there is nothing new under the sun", is there wasn't a book store back then like we have selling shinny new books to prevert the true gospel. But yes these hirling shepherds today will still get rewarded handsomely a few months longer.