Will Waldo Be Saved?

[DaveM1936]

I think the only honest answer is: "I don't know." Determining who is save or lost is God's choice alone. He never tells what He has decided.

Your friend,

DaveM

[DaveM1936]

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As I read words from you “wishful thinking” people out there telling of the deception you were taught sitting at the feet of pliable Aaron’s in the church, my suggestion to you is [knowing this is the only life you will ever get] is to eat, drink and be merry and them assemble on the resurrection morning after the 1000 years of the obedient people being in heaven looking at your life’s deeds to decide how long you are to suffer in the Lake Of Fire” prepared for the devil and his angels”. Yes, heaven has the rules all mapped out telling in detail of how to get off this planet either alive or dead, “wishful thinking” however does support Adventist authors & hirling shepherds in this life.

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That was not very nice! Who appointed you to judge who was going to be lost?

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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Furthermore, taken to extreme, "belief" itself is an act - and people who belief that they are saved by the intensity of their belief are themselves legalists.

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1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

John 3:17 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world [i.e., to the human race], and men loved the darkness rather than the light....

[Guest]

Dave get back to me after you have done some quality bible study. Thats the kind where all study guides hoary with age are discarded.

[LifeHiscost]

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I think the only honest answer is: "I don't know." Determining who is save or lost is God's choice alone. He never tells what He has decided.

Your friend,

DaveM

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[:"red"] "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." [/] Luke 23:40-43

Courage, Brother!

[LifeHiscost]

Ed wrote:

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As I read words from you “wishful thinking” people out there telling of the deception you were taught sitting at the feet of pliable Aaron’s in the church, my suggestion to you is [knowing this is the only life you will ever get] is to eat, drink and be merry and them assemble on the resurrection morning after the 1000 years of the obedient people being in heaven looking at your life’s deeds to decide how long you are to suffer in the Lake Of Fire” prepared for the devil and his angels”. Yes, heaven has the rules all mapped out telling in detail of how to get off this planet either alive or dead, “wishful thinking” however does support Adventist authors & hirling shepherds in this life.

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[:"red"] "...since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel

which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing...since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth..." [/] Col 1:4-6

[:"red"] "But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge]." [/] Galatians 5:22-25 AMP

Ed, I gave emphasis in bold type, to allow the focus on what fruit needs to be evident, for the certainty for those who read, that a person is speaking for God. Your posts seem more interested in the destruction of those who might destroy the peace of heaven for you, than in the salvation of erring mortals who need change, just as much as you do.

[:"red"] "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." [/] 1 John 1:8 KJV

[:"red"] "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." [/] 1 Cor 15:51-53 NKJV

Now you may at this time believe yourself to be incorruptible, ready for translation as Enoch and Elijah were. However I have not seen sufficient evidence of that to cause me stress when reading your accusations of others failures. And for the sake of those who feel embarrassed to lift their eyes to God, thanking Him that they are not sinful as others are, I would like to leave them with this hope.

[:"red"] ""But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." [/]

Matt 9:13 NASB Emph theirs LHC

For any others, this might be appropriate.

[:"red"] "I was never accused of any fault.

I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith. As a result, I can really know Christ and experience the mighty power that raised him from the dead. I can learn what it means to suffer with him, sharing in his death, so that, somehow, I can experience the resurrection from the dead!

I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection! But I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ Jesus saved me for and wants me to be. No, dear brothers and sisters, I am still not all I should be, but I am focusing all my energies on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us up to heaven." [/] Phil 3:6-14

[:"red"]"Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night."

[/] Revelation 12:10 NASB

[:"red"] "For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." [/] James 2:13

NKJV

[bevin]

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Matt 7:16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[:"red"]21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that [bold]doeth the will[/bold] of my Father which is in heaven.[/]

22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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Matt 21:28. But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

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Actions, not words. Belief is not some passive intellectual exercise.

/Bevin

[Guest]

The blind propping up the blind with trumped up courage. Try holding back the tide with a 5 gallon bucket, you may find more success.

[Nicodema]

I would hardly call LHC "blind". I've seen more evidence of the Spirit of God in LHC's posts than anything else. And in the name of Jesus Christ, I reject the implied notion that Truth must be pitted against Mercy, so that to be true to the former one must scoff, trample, bruise the latter. I reject this satanic nonsense and affirm in Jesus' name that the central core of God's character is His mercy and His love, even and most especially toward erring, sinful mortals. The Mercy of God is central to the Truth of God, and I reject any attempt to divide them against one another.

[DaveM1936]

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The blind propping up the blind with trumped up courage. Try holding back the tide with a 5 gallon bucket, you may find more success.

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Which fruit of the Spirit does this statement reveal?

Your friend,

Dave M

[LifeHiscost]

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more evidence of the Spirit of God And in the name of Jesus Christ, I...affirm in Jesus' name that the central core of God's character is His mercy and His love, even and most especially toward erring, sinful mortals. The Mercy of God is central to the Truth of God, and I reject any attempt to divide them against one another.

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[:"red"] "That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard,

and no mind has imagined what God has prepared

for those who love him."

But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. >>No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone<<, and **no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit**. And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us." [/] 1 Cor 2:9-12 NLT

Thank you for your defense, Nico. Re: >> << while this is true it seems also true that when ** ** is accepted and received into the heart of God's children, there is a kinship based upon the shed blood of Divine Royalty that cannot be denied by those chosen to receive the home prepared for those who depend upon that grace and mercy.

I am pleased to be able to recognize and accept you as a sister in Christ, bound for the promised land in spite of our shortcomings.

[:"red"] "DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.

In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also." [/] John 14:1-3 Amp

As for others that might disagree.

[:"red"] "Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." [/] Matt 12:24-28 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[Kevin H]

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Jesus saves us. Being saved in the "Name" of Jesus means his CHARACTER. The Holy Spirit works on all hearts....

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That is Catholicism!...That is faith + works = salvation....

Let's try that again:

Jesus SAVED us....We accepted that truth by faith. The Holy Spirit does not add to Christ's perfect righteousness. The Holy Spirit guides...he is there to make effective in our lives "the truth as it is in Jesus"....Hence His work in us is demonstrative...it's experiential - not meritorious.

Rob

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No Robert, First, it is NOT faith + works = salvation

From Mrs. White's and the Bible's view of hell, it is all faith. Jesus HIMSELF IS HELL FIRE. Jesus HIMSELF IS HEAVEN. Heaven and Hell are not places, but the one and very same person. When we see him, it will either be heaven or hell for us, by how we are responding to his pressence.

Second: for the name being the character, it is not Catholisism, but Biblical inplications of what the word translated "name" means in the original languages. May I invite you to simply read any half way reliable Bible dictionary or commentary, or listen to Jim Fleming's either "Praying in the Character of Jesus" individual lecture, or better yet, tape three in his 5 part series on Biblical Principles of prayer. I would appreciate you simply going to these sources and cretiqueing them and if you dissagree to point out just where they are wrong. These are availble through looking up Jim Fleming's name and Biblical Resources in your browser.

Third: Too many who complain about faith and works end up still making Salvation a legalistic list of works, it is just that they have a short list: To use the correct vocabulary about Jesus, and to give a history lesson as to what happened on the cross. Be careful that you are not falling into that trap.

Ir is Jesus who saves us, and what HE did on the cross. We are not saved by the work of giving the right words and history lesson. Yes, the conscious knowlege of this that the religion of Christianity offers us increases our chance of accepting this, and our knowlege of this gives us the blessed hope. But Jesus is a lot bigger than Christianity, and there will be people in heaven who will first hear the story of their salvation there. Others who may have heard it but did not understand it will still find the pressence of Jesus to be heaven, and they can have their understanding clearified.

May I invite you to read in the original "Sanctuary and the Atonement" the three studies in the philosophy of Ellen White "The Mighty Opposits [parts 1 and 2] the Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White." and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen White" and if you dissagree with these chapters, please cretique them and show where they are wrong.

I've given you some sources for my post. Now it's up to you to defend your criticism by going to these sources and cretiqueing them. I hope that you won't just answer with a lame excuse for not doing this. You can borrow the original Sanctuary and the Atonement through any of our college libaries or interlibarary loan.

As to Waldo being saved or not is simply how he responds to Jesus. Now being a Christian can help us in yealding to the desire to run to him, while being an agnostic can encourage such a sence of doubt that they may not look for answers, and when he sees the answer, he may be too hardened to come to the answer and thus resist the desire to run to Jesus.

[DaveM1936]

I am not going to disagree with your post. It expresses my own views. But I would like to add something.

All of us have defects of character. It is useless for us to attempt to remove them. So we come to Jesus and ask Him to remove them. Having asked Jesus to remove the sinfulness inside us, we stop struggling, remembering we have admitted our powerlessness to help ourselves. We put the responsibility for the removal of our chracter defects into the hands of God.

Does that mean there is nothing for us to do? Are we then suposed to just sit idly by, waiting, "twiddling our thumbs" Certainly not. I have a respsonsibily, too. My part, however, is not to enter into the struggle again, but to become increasingly aware of the reality and presence of God in my life.

To prepare myself for this, I have to spend some time each day alone with Jesus in quiet prayer and meditation. This daily discipline is MY assignment. I pray that Jesus' presence in my life becomes ever more real to me, and may I open myself to Him daily for His guidance. The struggle is not mine; I put it in God's hands. My part is to draw nearer to God.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Guest]

Dave said this. “All of us have defects of character. It is useless for us to attempt to remove them”

Dave you just keep proving my point over & over, with this mind set... you will not be one of those that have a message to give during the Loud Cry. I know you will discount the very counsel that would help you, but true to my trust, I’ll give it anyway.

“Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}

“It is left with us to remedy the defects”

“It is left with us to remedy the defects”

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I might add I heard this "Waldo story" [word for word as told above]in Roseville California in 1965. Adventism had this silver tongue orator circulating the globe on a large expence account to insert this leadership suggestion of it's ok to still be sinning until Jesus comes back.

Only down/down/down since then.

[Clio]

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My part, however, is not to enter into the struggle again, but to become increasingly aware of the reality and presence of God in my life.

To prepare myself for this, I have to spend some time each day alone with Jesus in quiet prayer and meditation. This daily discipline is MY assignment. I pray that Jesus' presence in my life becomes ever more real to me, and may I open myself to Him daily for His guidance. The struggle is not mine; I put it in God's hands. My part is to draw nearer to God.

Your friend,

Dave M

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Mmmmmm.... Do you find this easy Dave M?

Drawing nearer to Abba is a wonderful thing. What I found to be the greatest inhibitor to that was often my own fear. Only as I ripped out strongholds in my life that prevented me from receiving all Jesus died and paid for could I draw near to Abba Father.

And it was only after drawing near to Abba Father, and receiving the spirit healing necessary as a Daughter of the King, that I could appreciate in it's fullness what Jesus did for me.

*sigh*

I know... backwards from the Word, but I always prayed in Jesus Name. I don't understand it, but that is how I experienced it.

Now I find I need the presence of Abba Father less, and the presence of Jesus my Husband more.... not in terms of magnitude, but in terms of frequency... but that is reasonable. As a Daughter grows and goes with her Bridegroom, they are to become one flesh... and it is ever such with True Jesus, my Husband. We are becoming one flesh... I have the right to all that is His for we are One.

I experience that Oneness with my Husband through His Spirit which dwells in me....

You mention quiet prayer and meditation time with Jesus... where do you find such time? Since I lack that time, I spend all day talking to Jesus. He walks beside me, He is never farther from me than a single word. I carry my Bible everywhere... I just wish I had the energy to carry all the study guides, books, and notes for all the various topics I'm studying....

Time is so very short. I cannot wait until Jesus comes... I think I may spend the first 5000 years after we are re-established on this earth made new in the Heavenly Library. I do have an appointment with the Keeper of the Books there... but there's no real hurry to keep it.... It's not going anywhere.... But I have such a thirst for the knowledge contained there.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this... but the concept of drawing closer to Abba Father, struck a chord for me.

Clio <- who occasionally wonders why she posts what she does... now being one of those times.

[cardw]

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“Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}

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I would believe this if I met someone who had no defects of character. This approach simply does not work. In fact this approach is counter productive. It creates rigid judgemental people who live in fear.

First of all there is no way to determine if one is free of all defects. The result is that a person is in a constant state of fear. There is a focus on self to the degree that there is a continual state of self evaluation.

I agree with you that Ellen White teaches this. But I would call this poison. Ellen White's response to those who would disagree with this would be to say that they just want to hold on to some cherished sin.

This just creates a cycle of shame for those who believe her. And the fruit of shame is often discouragement, depression, anger, and self destruction. It is the opposite of healing and salvation.

If I could use stronger words in this forum to disagree with this approach, I would. It is simply one of the most destructive teachings out there.

Richard

[Guest]

Cardw said this. "There is a focus on self to the degree that there is a continual state of self evaluation.

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I find that the same people that are scoffers of Ellen White writings are also offended by scripture. Tell me sir,to those that would read the bible verse where it says "To examine yourself to see if you are in the faith"? You suggest that it is wrong to be in the state of self evaluation, yet the bible tell me the exact opposite. I choose "to believe Gon rather than man". When you stumble on some inspired thoughts to back up your position get back with me.

[cardw]

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I find that the same people that are scoffers of Ellen White writings are also offended by scripture.

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I find that people who are scoffers of compassion are hard hearted, focused on details, judgemental and slow to forgive. I'm not offended by scripture. I'm offended by those who worship scripture and make an idol of it and use it to pass judgement on others.

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Tell me sir,to those that would read the bible verse where it says "To examine yourself to see if you are in the faith"? You suggest that it is wrong to be in the state of self evaluation, yet the bible tell me the exact opposite.

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I said a continual state of self evaluation. This is essentially self centeredness. Don't misrepresent my statements to make a point!! I did NOT say that self evaluation was wrong. This is a GROSS exaggeration of my point. Knock it off.

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I choose "to believe Gon rather than man".

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You choose to believe your version of god. God is more than your understanding.

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When you stumble on some inspired thoughts to back up your position get back with me.

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When you stumble on something that works you get back to me. You are promoting some of the most toxic stuff I have ever read. I generally am pretty diplomatic, and I have nothing against you personally, but the stuff you put out there kills people spiritually. When Jesus is talking about hanging a millstone around someone's neck and throwing them in the sea, He's talking about you. That's because you put burdens on people God never intended.

You talk about your version of love is giving straight talk, so since that is how you like to be loved, that is what you will get from me. I am as strongly convicted that what you promote is harmful as you are convicted that you are right.

Richard

[Guest]

Richard said this. "I am as strongly convicted that what you promote is harmful as you are convicted that you are right."

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The difference IS you post from what you feel, I post with documentation the truth whether the deceived ones takes heed or not. I don't mind laying the ax at the root of the tree since I have sat in Adventist churches for 40 years seeing as the solution to a worthless tree clumbering the ground pliable Aarons using nail clipper on the branches.

When you finish shaving & come up to speed, get back with me for some substance.

[Clio]

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I am as strongly convicted that what you promote is harmful as you are convicted that you are right.

Richard

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Richard, you do not stand alone in this. The fruit is not present in his posts, and so I have placed him on ignore.

Now you will be told I am a teacher of fables, and a believer with itching ears.

Clio

[Kevin H]

see below

[Guest]

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I am as strongly convicted that what you promote is harmful as you are convicted that you are right.

Richard

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Richard, you do not stand alone in this. The fruit is not present in his posts, and so I have placed him on ignore.

Now you will be told I am a teacher of fables, and a believer with itching ears.

Clio

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Maybe you were born 40 to late to be original, there is a entire generation of professed believers that have been using the "ignore button" for years. Some buttons are out in the open to push when it comes to following the heavenly blueprint as to how SDA educational work should be conducted. The ignore button in medical lines has been pushed so many times a dustproof/explosionproof industrial heavy duty type needs to be replaced every year due to wear. And on top of this the sorcers pills has the membership in a stupor into believing that Accute Care Centers is SDA medical missionary work. I think the Master once said words like this to His sleeping church that had blown a golden opporunity to assist Him when He was in need.

"Sleep on now and take your rest". This would NOT be His advice to today's sleeping church...

[Kevin H]

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&#8220;Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost. {5T 214.2}

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I would believe this if I met someone who had no defects of character. This approach simply does not work. In fact this approach is counter productive. It creates rigid judgemental people who live in fear.

First of all there is no way to determine if one is free of all defects. The result is that a person is in a constant state of fear. There is a focus on self to the degree that there is a continual state of self evaluation.

I agree with you that Ellen White teaches this. But I would call this poison. Ellen White's response to those who would disagree with this would be to say that they just want to hold on to some cherished sin.

This just creates a cycle of shame for those who believe her. And the fruit of shame is often discouragement, depression, anger, and self destruction. It is the opposite of healing and salvation.

If I could use stronger words in this forum to disagree with this approach, I would. It is simply one of the most destructive teachings out there.

Richard

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The conservatives among us have taken Mrs. White out of context on this point and have built a whole theology that Mrs. Whtie fought against during her life. You can go to the White estate and find strong letters to people who were teaching this view in her day, dissagreeing with their view, dissagreeing with how they were applying her writings, and in the 1920's on after Mrs. Whites death, those who she would criticise and dissagree with, ended up being seen as the heros of the conservative movements within Adventism.

The conservative trend tends to focus on the works part,and focusing on us gaining the victory and teach that the last generation will be at a point of righteousness unlike anyone previous.

Richard, you have fallen into the trap of believing that those who missapply Mrs. White here are correct. Mrs. White did indeed say much on the topic (as seen in the massive quotaions from Mrs. White that those who missapply her have compiled and can fill pages with.) But Mrs. White's context is that we need to take our belief in Christ seriously. We need to be self critics (which is taught in different modern psychologies and philosophies such as reality therapy, cognative therapy, aesthetic realism and others)and to look to Jesus and care for others, be interested in Bible Study.

Today we tend to be in two groups. Those who are just nampy pampy sticky sweet Jesusie who whine against works, but who have developed their own short list of works that you must do and unless you do this short list you are going to hell, but if you do more than this short list then you are being a legalist, not trusting in Jesus' marits and thus also going to hell, so lets just meet and have a good time.

Then others who are too focused on tradition, and worried about self, but get their pleasure in seeing the rest of the world,including the church going to hell in a handbasket.

Mrs. White's comments were to warn us from either of these two views that we love to jump into. Both tend to have sections of the truth that they use against the rest of the truth, and for them Bible study and Mrs. White study, are to find quotes to throw at one another. Since both sides have parts of the truth, it is very easy for them to find the quotes that they are looking for.

Mrs. White would emphessise the looking at Jesus, examining self to see where we are living selfishly, and to love others and encourage the best in them. John Wesley tends to be the example that Ellen White is constantily using for these quotes on developing perfection of character. Yes, Mrs. White does see a special righteousness in the last generation, but it is not a difference of quality from previous generations, but a difference of quantity. There have always been a few like Joseph, Daniel, Paul, John Wesley, who have been at a deeper relationship with God than the typical believer. What Mrs. White invisions is a generation of John Wesley's. Where a person like him is the norm and not the exception among God's people.

How many of us are taking Bible study seriously? How many of us look at John Bright's "A History of Israel" Aharoni's "The Land of the Bible" or the MacMillian Bible Atlas. How many of us look at serious commentaries, the works of Abraham Joshua Heshel, William Foxwell Albright, word studies, linguistic studies, literary structure studies, historical and cultural studies? Are you willing to look into studies of Paul not filtered by Luther? Have you ever bought a Jim Fleming tape and poped it into your tape player? Have any of you even looked at Sanctuary and the Atonment? A major part of the investigative judgment is that we can invistigate scripture in a way that Luther and others couldn't even dream of doing and would love to have the opputunity to do. Sadly we avoid this gift of God as if it was the plague. One group saying it's not important and nothing special is going on. The other group saying that yes this special thing is going on, but lets not get polluted by the facts and just stay together and speculate on our own imbreaded ideas.

What Mrs. White says is true, but we need to see how she understood it and fall into the trap of looking at part of what she said, speculating on it, build our own traditions on our speculation, then build tradition upon traditions. One the other hand we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as Richard is doing.

[DaveM1936]

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Dave said this. “All of us have defects of character. It is useless for us to attempt to remove them”

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The emphasis in this sentence is "US". I am not saying that defects of character cannot be removed. I said the "WE" cannot remove them. It is useless to try. Only Jesus can remove them. Therefore we should stop struggling to do something He has already promised to do for us.

Instead, we work on staying in the presence of Jesus. He cannot help us if we keep Him apart from our lives.

Ps 32:9: Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you. (NIV)

Instead, this is the work Jesus wants us to do:

Isa 55:1-3: "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. (NIV)

Jer 3:22: "Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding." "Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God. (NIV)

Hosea 6:1: Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (KJV)

Matt 11:28-30: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (NIV)

Rev 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (NIV)

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

Quote:

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I've given you some sources for my post. Now it's up to you to defend your criticism by going to these sources and cretiqueing them. I hope that you won't just answer with a lame excuse for not doing this.

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Lame excuse? No...Ellen White is not my Pope....I quote her good stuff. There's legalistic stuff too....

Bottom line we must use the Bible. If we are justified by our works, then please tell me at what point we are good enough to enter heaven? Yes?