The "Resurrection" at the 2nd Coming

[Samie]

Quote:

Daniel 12:1-2

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Quote:

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is the resurrection mentioned in Dan 12 the same resurrection mentioned in John 5?

If your answer is YES, then it is the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, since Daniel 12 clearly indicates the resurrection there mentioned is to occur at the 2nd Coming. Now, if the dead wicked will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming, why is it being taught that the living wicked will be slain? Isn't this contradictory? Resurrect the dead and slay the living? Is there any Biblical passage that directly indicates the living wicked will be slain at the 2nd Coming?

But if your answer is NO, then why? And when will the resurrection of John 5:28,29 be fulfilled?

Any inputs, forum mates? Thanks for contributing to a healthy Bible-based discussion on this issue.

[Gerr]

The resurrection at the Second Coming is the resurrection of the righteous, 1 Thes 4 & 1 Cor 15. HOWEVER, there will be also a resurrection of the SOME of the wicked - "...those who pierced Him," Rev 1:7,and most likely, those who presided at His trial, Mk 14:62, but only to be slain along with the rest of the wicked.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Daniel 12:1-2

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Quote:

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is the resurrection mentioned in Dan 12 the same resurrection mentioned in John 5?

If your answer is YES, then it is the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, since Daniel 12 clearly indicates the resurrection there mentioned is to occur at the 2nd Coming. Now, if the dead wicked will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming, why is it being taught that the living wicked will be slain? Isn't this contradictory? Resurrect the dead and slay the living? Is there any Biblical passage that directly indicates the living wicked will be slain at the 2nd Coming?

Reasonable question,Samie. If these two passages on the resurrection were the only ones in the Bible it would be very difficult to reach any other conclusion. HOwever, Rev,20 speaks clearly about there being two resurrections 1000 years apart. The first is said to be for the righteous and the second for the rest.Only the second resurrection in this chapter has another judgment attached to it.This adds a little more clarity and detail to the previous two statements about the resurrection without necessarily demanding a contradiction between the two views.We SDA's often speak of the second coming and forget to remind the world of a third coming.{It also helps to clarify on the idea the God never kills but that's a whole different piece of pie.)

[phkrause]

The resurrection at the Second Coming is the resurrection of the righteous, 1 Thes 4 & 1 Cor 15. HOWEVER, there will be also a resurrection of the SOME of the wicked - "...those who pierced Him," Rev 1:7,and most likely, those who presided at His trial, Mk 14:62, but only to be slain along with the rest of the wicked.

This has been my understanding Gerry.

[phkrause]

Reasonable question,Samie. If these two passages on the resurrection were the only ones in the Bible it would be very difficult to reach any other conclusion. HOwever, Rev,20 speaks clearly about there being two resurrections 1000 years apart. The first is said to be for the righteous and the second for the rest.Only the second resurrection in this chapter has another judgment attached to it.This adds a little more clarity and detail to the previous two statements about the resurrection without necessarily demanding a contradiction between the two views.We SDA's often speak of the second coming and forget to remind the world of a third coming.{It also helps to clarify on the idea the God never kills but that's a whole different piece of pie.)

[Lysimachus]

The easiest way to prove that there is a Third Coming is that the New Jerusalem does not come down at the Second Advent.

Christ comes with all His angels in the clouds, and He does not touch the air.

But we have a time when the New Jerusalem comes down. This is not the Second Coming, but is a post-millennial event.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

...

Is the resurrection mentioned in Dan 12 the same resurrection mentioned in John 5?

If your answer is YES, then it is the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, since Daniel 12 clearly indicates the resurrection there mentioned is to occur at the 2nd Coming. Now, if the dead wicked will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming, why is it being taught that the living wicked will be slain? Isn't this contradictory? Resurrect the dead and slay the living? Is there any Biblical passage that directly indicates the living wicked will be slain at the 2nd Coming?

Reasonable question,Samie. If these two passages on the resurrection were the only ones in the Bible it would be very difficult to reach any other conclusion. HOwever, Rev,20 speaks clearly about there being two resurrections 1000 years apart. The first is said to be for the righteous and the second for the rest.Only the second resurrection in this chapter has another judgment attached to it.This adds a little more clarity and detail to the previous two statements about the resurrection without necessarily demanding a contradiction between the two views.We SDA's often speak of the second coming and forget to remind the world of a third coming.{It also helps to clarify on the idea the God never kills but that's a whole different piece of pie.)

[doug yowell]

The easiest way to prove that there is a Third Coming is that the New Jerusalem does not come down at the Second Advent.

Christ comes with all His angels in the clouds, and He does not touch the air.

But we have a time when the New Jerusalem comes down. This is not the Second Coming, but is a post-millennial event.

Another good point.

[skyblue888]

Exact.

sky

[doug yowell]

Thanks, Doug, for your reply.

Quote:

KJV John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Would you care to tell us whether this 'hour' (Gr 'hora', singular) will be at the 2nd Coming?

Yes, it will be at the second coming (and also Jesus had previously added "...and now is...").

It also will occur at a different "hour" following the first "hour".

Quote:

I ask because it looks like there really is a resurrection where both the just and the unjust will be resurrected.

Understandably.Add Rev. 20 to the mix and a clearer picture of the resurrection appears. One needs to keep in mind that the Bible often (John mostly) employs the word "hour" as a synonym for the word "time". Jesus had already used the word in John 4 when speaking to the Samaritan woman about the coming "hour" of worship. He applied it to the future and the present. Thus He did not confine a singular word to a singular event/time.This helps us better understand where He was going with His instructions.

Quote:

KJV Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Again, I don't think anyone on this Forum will argue that there is not a total resurrection of the righteous as well as a resurrection of some portion of the evil

spoken of in the references you've given.Had you included Rev.20 which clearly numbers the resurrection('s) at 2 it would explain why we believe that the general resurrection of the wicked will occur at the end of the 1000 years in order to participate in the judgment process.There are more texts and reasons for believing that also.That "Judgment begins at the house of God" refers to the judgment process as well as the execution of the sentence rendered.It would then make sense that the reward for faithfulness (may we all be judged accordingly)will be given before the process of judgment begins for those who are not of the household of God.

Quote:

I believe it will occur at the 2nd Coming, because of at least TWO (2) Bible-based reasons:

Reason #1. The Lord had promised He will reward every man according to what each has done when He returns:

As Marcos previously noted, there will be another "coming/return" of Jesus following the millennium. There will also be another resurrection that follows the second coming which is accompanied by another judgment process (Rev.20:11-15). Had these received their rewards already at the first coming there would be seemingly no need of another judgment. Long posts lose people quickly so I'm out for now.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Thanks, Doug, for your reply.

Would you care to tell us whether this 'hour' (Gr 'hora', singular) will be at the 2nd Coming?

Yes, it will be at the second coming (and also Jesus had previously added "...and now is...").

[doug yowell]

You believe John 5:28,29 will occur at the 2nd Coming, so what prevents you from believing that all, both just and unjust will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming as Christ explicitly said?

Jesus didn't explicitly say that all would be resurrected at the 2nd coming, He said that all would hear His voice and come forth and then added "unto the resurrection of life" and unto the "resurrection of damnation". When one adds His words in Rev.20 to the understanding it is not difficult to see the two distinct and separate events.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

You believe John 5:28,29 will occur at the 2nd Coming, so what prevents you from believing that all, both just and unjust will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming as Christ explicitly said?

Jesus didn't explicitly say that all would be resurrected at the 2nd coming, He said that all would hear His voice and come forth and then added "unto the resurrection of life" and unto the "resurrection of damnation". When one adds His words in Rev.20 to the understanding it is not difficult to see the two distinct and separate events.

[Windsor]

The living wicked are all slain at the Second Coming of Christ as revealed in Luke 17:

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

One person will be taken and the other left and where will the other one be left? With the vultures.

[doug yowell]

The living wicked are all slain at the Second Coming of Christ as revealed in Luke 17:

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

One person will be taken and the other left and where will the other one be left? With the vultures.

Another important cog in the resurrection wheel,W. Maybe Samie is trying to say that the 2nd resurrection is for the former living who were killed by the 2nd coming but are now dead ? Samie?

[doug yowell]

You are contradicting your own statement. You admitted John 5:28, 29 will occur at the 2nd Coming.

[Samie]

There is another resurrection of the wicked after the millennium (see Rev 20:4-6).

Christ had explicitly said that when He comes, He will reward every man according to what each has done:

Quote:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

We are sure that the coming He specified is the 2nd Coming because in Rev 20:12 He said He is coming soon - undoubtedly referring to His soon coming which is the 2nd Coming - and that in this coming, He has with Him the reward for each one according to what each has done.

Quote:

NIV Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

The fact that every man will be given his own reward necessitates all are present to receive his own reward. In this connection, the Savior said that there is a coming hour where all in the graves will hear His voice and shall come forth:

Quote:

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Clearly, there are two groups that will be resurrected: the group of the righteous, and the group of the wicked. With all dead resurrected and along with those alive when Christ comes, all will see the Savior coming in the clouds of heaven:

Quote:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Each group will have its own reward: eternal life for the righteous, wrath of God for the wicked.

Quote:

Romans 2:5-8

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

The first group to come forth and rise from the grave and receive their reward of eternal life along with the living is the group of the righteous. This is why it is called the first resurrection in Rev 20:6 because all who are in it are righteous.

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The wicked throng will be rewarded with the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues:

Quote:

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Notice that before the vials of the 7 last plagues were given to the 7 angels, the righteous are already seen standing on the sea of glass in heaven, singing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb. This proves the 2nd Coming has occurred otherwise they could not yet be in heaven.

Quote:

Revelation 15:2-5

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

It was only after their singing that the vials were given to the angels and the command to pour out the plagues on the wicked on earth was issued:

Quote:

Revelation 15:5-7

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Therefore, the Bible stipulates the 7 last plagues being the reward for the wicked, will be poured on all the wicked on earth, from the first wicked down to the last wicked, NOT BEFORE, but AFTER the 2nd Coming, when all wicked had been resurrected! If these plagues are to be poured before the 2nd Coming, then the wicked dead will be spared from this fulfillment of God's wrath since only the living wicked would suffer them. But our God is a righteous Judge. What is due the wicked must be suffered by all wicked.

To be continued...

[Samie]

The living wicked are all slain at the Second Coming of Christ as revealed in Luke 17:

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

One person will be taken and the other left and where will the other one be left? With the vultures.

[Samie]

Here is an account of your admission Doug which you say you did not make:

After quoting John 5:28,29 I asked in post #546987: Would you care to tell us whether this 'hour' (Gr 'hora', singular) will be at the 2nd Coming?

Your answer came in post #547014 where you said: "Yes, it will be at the second coming".

So what happened you are now denying you made the admission?

Do you now still insist you did not make the admission that the "hour" mentioned in John 5:28, 29 will be at the 2nd Coming?

[Samie]

...

Therefore, the Bible stipulates the 7 last plagues being the reward for the wicked, will be poured on all the wicked on earth, from the first wicked down to the last wicked, NOT BEFORE, but AFTER the 2nd Coming, when all wicked had been resurrected! If these plagues are to be poured before the 2nd Coming, then the wicked dead will be spared from this fulfillment of God's wrath since only the living wicked would suffer them. But our God is a righteous Judge. What is due the wicked must be suffered by all wicked.

To be continued...

[Windsor]

Sorry Samie. I'm not going outside the words of Jesus to make more clear what the Bible already revealed in the book of Luke.

[BobRyan]

The resurrection at the Second Coming is the resurrection of the righteous, 1 Thes 4 & 1 Cor 15. HOWEVER, there will be also a resurrection of the SOME of the wicked - "...those who pierced Him," Rev 1:7,and most likely, those who presided at His trial, Mk 14:62, but only to be slain along with the rest of the wicked.

Daniel simply points to a future resurrection as does Christ in Matt 22.

In John 5 we have two different resurrections and in Rev 20 John goes into even more detail about those two different resurrections - telling us that they are separated by 1000 years.

John is the only one to give us that detail about the 1000 years separating the two resurrections mentioned in John 5.

I say we listen to him.

In the same way that 2Peter 3 tells us about the day of the Lord and the 2nd coming - but then combines both the Rev 19 2nd coming with the Rev 20-21 return after the 1000 years.

John simply gives "more detail".

in Christ,

Bob

[Samie]

Sorry Samie. I'm not going outside the words of Jesus to make more clear what the Bible already revealed in the book of Luke.

Nor do I. Neither do I ask you to do so.

I just wonder why you, as with others, just can't believe Jesus words in John 5:28, 29 that an hour is coming when ALL in the graves, not some, will hear His voice and come out from their graves. Jesus words are emphatic that those who heard are either righteous or wicked. There's just no room for assumption as what you seemed to have resorted to in the book of Luke. And I had explained biblical events up till and beyond the resurrection at Rev 20.

And what is even more amazing is the silence on when John 5:28,29 gets fulfilled, if not at the 2nd Coming.

Someone in this thread admitted it is at the 2nd Coming, but took back his admission for no reason at all.

[Samie]

...

Daniel simply points to a future resurrection as does Christ in Matt 22.

[BobRyan]

Daniel simply points to a future resurrection as does Christ in Matt 22.

In John 5 we have two different resurrections and in Rev 20 John goes into even more detail about those two different resurrections - telling us that they are separated by 1000 years.

John is the only one to give us that detail about the 1000 years separating the two resurrections mentioned in John 5.

I say we listen to him.

In the same way that 2Peter 3 tells us about the day of the Lord and the 2nd coming - but then combines both the Rev 19 2nd coming with the Rev 20-21 return after the 1000 years.

John simply gives "more detail".