The "Resurrection" at the 2nd Coming

[BobRyan]

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

After the righteous had been ushered to heaven, the 7 last plagues will be poured out upon all the wicked. Rev 16 tells us that the prophet-slayers are among those to suffer from the plagues. These prophet-slayers are long dead, and the fact that they are among those suffering the 3rd plague is proof enough they had been resurrected to suffer this fulfillment of God's wrath. This again proves the wicked will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming to receive their reward.

Revelation 16:4-7

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

That's it??? !!

That is your entire proof that the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20 is not really the FIRST resurrection where the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST"???

Your entire case is based on the "assumption" that the 3rd plague either includes an "unmentioned resurrection" or it follows "an unmentioned resurrection"???

[Samie]

Dan 12:1,2 & John 5:28, 29 present a glaring evidence against the position that the wicked are not raised at the 2nd Coming.

Analysis: There is a coming hour when

1. ALL in the graves will hear His voice.

2. ALL will come forth from their graves.

Since ALL heard, therefore, ALL are alive. Those who comprise this ALL are:

1. They who have done good - the righteous.

2. They who have done evil - the wicked.

Conclusion: Both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the 2nd Coming.

Reason why ALL - that is, every man - need to be resurrected: Because Christ said every man will be given his reward when He comes again (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Eternal life for the righteous; God's wrath - the 7 last plagues - for the wicked (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 15:1).

Sequential order of rising from the grave:

1. The righteous rise first. This is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

2. The wicked rise next. This is different from their resurrection 1000 years after they are all slain at the 7 last plagues and the War at Armageddon after the 2nd Coming.

[Samie]

Defeaning silence.

When God is in His holy temple, the earth keeps silence (Hab 2:20).

When Truth reigns in a thread, silence announces its presence.

[Lysimachus]

Well said BobRyan.

Samie cannot refute the scriptural evidence of the First and Second Resurrections.

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

He does not wish to see that light and detail are progressive, and the totality of God's Word must be taken into consideration in order to arrive at proper doctrine.

[Lysimachus]

Dan 12:1,2 & John 5:28, 29 present a glaring evidence against the position that the wicked are not raised at the 2nd Coming.

Analysis: There is a coming hour when

1. ALL in the graves will hear His voice.

2. ALL will come forth from their graves.

Since ALL heard, therefore, ALL are alive. Those who comprise this ALL are:

1. They who have done good - the righteous.

2. They who have done evil - the wicked.

Conclusion: Both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the 2nd Coming.

Reason why ALL - that is, every man - need to be resurrected: Because Christ said every man will be given his reward when He comes again (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Eternal life for the righteous; God's wrath - the 7 last plagues - for the wicked (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 15:1).

Sequential order of rising from the grave:

1. The righteous rise first. This is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

2. The wicked rise next. This is different from their resurrection 1000 years after they are all slain at the 7 last plagues and the War at Armageddon after the 2nd Coming.

Semantic jugglery.

The "reward" can be given, whether they are dead or alive. It just means the sentence is passed.

No proof that all the wicked are resurrected at the Second Advent. You just like to be difficult Samie, and "different". You think the scriptures you cite support you.

They do not.

They do not support your arguments.

They do not say what you think they are saying.

[Lysimachus]

"But the REMAINING dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Rev 20:5)

Proof that there were dead before, and they "remain" that way over the thousand years.

[Samie]

Lysimachus, brother;

You say I can't refute your position, when the truth is you haven't even tried to dip a finger at my view I delineated in post #548257. That effectively dashed your position into bits and pieces.

Why not try addressing that post, but this time, please don't run away, will you?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Dan 12:1,2 & John 5:28, 29 present a glaring evidence against the position that the wicked are not raised at the 2nd Coming.

Analysis: There is a coming hour when

1. ALL in the graves will hear His voice.

2. ALL will come forth from their graves.

Since ALL heard, therefore, ALL are alive. Those who comprise this ALL are:

1. They who have done good - the righteous.

2. They who have done evil - the wicked.

Conclusion: Both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the 2nd Coming.

Reason why ALL - that is, every man - need to be resurrected: Because Christ said every man will be given his reward when He comes again (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Eternal life for the righteous; God's wrath - the 7 last plagues - for the wicked (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 15:1).

Sequential order of rising from the grave:

1. The righteous rise first. This is the first resurrection of Rev 20.

2. The wicked rise next. This is different from their resurrection 1000 years after they are all slain at the 7 last plagues and the War at Armageddon after the 2nd Coming.

Semantic jugglery.

[Samie]

"But the REMAINING dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Rev 20:5)

Proof that there were dead before, and they "remain" that way over the thousand years.

Yes, because Scriptures indicate that after they were resurrected at the 2nd Coming, they received the reward due them which is the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues. After the plagues and the war at Armageddon they were all slain. That is the reference point of their remaining dead over the thousand years.

Is it now clear to you, brother Lys?

[Yong T Tay]

Samie,

Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 are two different resurrections. The Daniel 12:1-2 resurrection take place at "a time of trouble" just before Christ Second Coming. The resurrection involve not all the dead but "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" some good and some evil. They are resurrected for a specific purpose - to have an eye witness of the Second Coming of Jesus. John 5:28-29 take place at the Second Coming and Third Coming of Christ. The Second and Third coming involve 2 general resurrections: One for the saved and the other for the unsaved with 1,000 years apart.

Yongttay

[doug yowell]

Defeaning silence.

When God is in His holy temple, the earth keeps silence (Hab 2:20).

When Truth reigns in a thread, silence announces its presence.

Option #2 is found in Prov.17:27,28.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus, brother;

You say I can't refute your position, when the truth is you haven't even tried to dip a finger at my view I delineated in post #548257. That effectively dashed your position into bits and pieces.

Why not try addressing that post, but this time, please don't run away, will you?

In your mind, I have not tried, yet all the posts by BobRyan and several others here including me have done so. You like to imagine things Samie. The fact is, you're the one running away with your tail tucked in between your legs.

I'm sorry Samie, but all the saying in the world that you have "effectively dashed my position into bits and pieces" will not make the facts go away, that your entire theory has been smashed to pieces by a number of us on this board! I can't help what the facts say Samie, I'm sowwy!

The fact is, I did not need to address your post, as I already explained the whole thing in one sentence:

The "reward" can be given, whether they are dead or alive. It just means the sentence is passed.

Plain and simple. Don't keep arguing.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Samie]

Lys has a reason why he is bent on evading this issue.

At another thread he admitted the resurrection at Dan 12:1,2 occurs after the closing events of this earth's history, indirectly referring it will be at the 2nd Coming. He also believes the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 refers to the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, a resurrection only the righteous are involved. This is where his dilemma lies, because Dan 12:2 specifies both righteous and wicked are raised while in the "first resurrection" only the righteous are in.

He cannot believe the words of the Savior that when He comes again both righteous and wicked will be resurrected because He will give every man the rewards due according to what each has done. Only, the righteous rise first: this is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. Then the wicked are raised next. With all present and alive all eyes will see Him come in the clouds. The righteous will be rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven. After which the wicked are given out their own reward - the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues, at the conclusion of which in the war at Armageddon the wicked will all be slain. They remain dead and will be resurrected again at the end of the millennium. Scripturally harmonious and a vivid portrayal of truth as it is in Scriptures.

Sadly, Lys cannot simply harmonize his view with what Scriptures say and the best option of course is to evade.

[Samie]

Samie,

Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 are two different resurrections. The Daniel 12:1-2 resurrection take place at "a time of trouble" just before Christ Second Coming. The resurrection involve not all the dead but "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" some good and some evil. They are resurrected for a specific purpose - to have an eye witness of the Second Coming of Jesus. John 5:28-29 take place at the Second Coming and Third Coming of Christ. The Second and Third coming involve 2 general resurrections: One for the saved and the other for the unsaved with 1,000 years apart.

Yongttay

Your objection is already answered in my previous post. Also, the verses in Dan 12:1,2 themselves refute your view of sporadic resurrections.

Daniel 12:1 speaks of deliverance for "every one written in the book", a direct reference to the book of life. This informs us all righteous, both dead and alive, will be delivered. Therefore all dead righteous have to be resurrected to experience the deliverance mentioned. Since in this resurrection all righteous are raised this is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20, proving there is no other resurrection for the righteous as you say there is.

No matter how you object, John 5 and Dan 12 speak of the same resurrection at the 2nd Coming. The Savior Himself specified at that 'hour' ALL, both righteous and wicked, will hear His voice. Having heard means they are alive.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Defeaning silence.

When God is in His holy temple, the earth keeps silence (Hab 2:20).

When Truth reigns in a thread, silence announces its presence.

Option #2 is found in Prov.17:27,28.

Thanks, doug; those verses are a snug fit.

[Samie]

It is evident, as per Scriptures, that both the righteous and the wicked will all be resurrected at the 2nd Coming and will be present to receive the reward due their works as emphasized by our Savior Himself:

Quote:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

NIV Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Reason why He mentioned of a coming 'hour' when all, not just some, in the graves will hear His voice and come out, both righteous and wicked.

Quote:

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This 'hour' referred to by our Savior will occur on the 'day' the Bible calls the "day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God" when rewards according to deeds will be rendered to each one: Eternal life for the righteous; wrath of God - the 7 last plagues - for the wicked.

Quote:

Romans 2:5-8

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

With all - both righteous and wicked - resurrected, every eye will see the Savior come in the clouds of heaven:

Quote:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

To be continued...

[Samie]

Both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the 2nd Coming but Scriptures delineate the righteous shall rise first:

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the first resurrection referred to in Rev 20, where only the righteous, with NO single wicked, are involved:

Quote:

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

They shall then be rewarded with life eternal (see Rom 2:5-8) and ushered to heaven to attend the wedding of the Lamb (see Rev 19:1-9). This explains why they are already standing on the sea of glass in heaven (Rev 15:2-4) before the vials of the 7 last plagues were given to the angels (Rev 15:5-7) and the command to pour out the plagues on earth was issued (Rev 16:1):

Quote:

Revelation 15:2-4

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. {saints: or, nations, or, ages}

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

After the singing of the song of Moses and of the Lamb by the righteous, the 7 vials filled with God's wrath will be given to the 7 angels:

Quote:

Revelation 15:5 - 16:1

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

And then the command to pour the plagues on earth - as the reward for all the wicked - will be issued:

Quote:

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

To be continued...

[Lysimachus]

Lys has a reason why he is bent on evading this issue.

At another thread he admitted the resurrection at Dan 12:1,2 occurs after the closing events of this earth's history, indirectly referring it will be at the 2nd Coming. He also believes the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 refers to the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, a resurrection only the righteous are involved. This is where his dilemma lies, because Dan 12:2 specifies both righteous and wicked are raised while in the "first resurrection" only the righteous are in.

He cannot believe the words of the Savior that when He comes again both righteous and wicked will be resurrected because He will give every man the rewards due according to what each has done. Only, the righteous rise first: this is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. Then the wicked are raised next. With all present and alive all eyes will see Him come in the clouds. The righteous will be rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven. After which the wicked are given out their own reward - the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues, at the conclusion of which in the war at Armageddon the wicked will all be slain. They remain dead and will be resurrected again at the end of the millennium. Scripturally harmonious and a vivid portrayal of truth as it is in Scriptures.

Sadly, Lys cannot simply harmonize his view with what Scriptures say and the best option of course is to evade.

You still yet need to explain the point you're trying to make. I'm not sure what it is I'm not "harmonizing". What exactly are you trying to say, in short words? You're quoting a lot of scriptures, which I agree with, but I'm not sure what is it in the Adventist view you are disagreeing with concerning the resurrections. You admit there are 2 resurrections. So what are you trying to say?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Lys has a reason why he is bent on evading this issue.

At another thread he admitted the resurrection at Dan 12:1,2 occurs after the closing events of this earth's history, indirectly referring it will be at the 2nd Coming. He also believes the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 refers to the resurrection at the 2nd Coming, a resurrection only the righteous are involved. This is where his dilemma lies, because Dan 12:2 specifies both righteous and wicked are raised while in the "first resurrection" only the righteous are in.

He cannot believe the words of the Savior that when He comes again both righteous and wicked will be resurrected because He will give every man the rewards due according to what each has done. Only, the righteous rise first: this is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. Then the wicked are raised next. With all present and alive all eyes will see Him come in the clouds. The righteous will be rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven. After which the wicked are given out their own reward - the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues, at the conclusion of which in the war at Armageddon the wicked will all be slain. They remain dead and will be resurrected again at the end of the millennium. Scripturally harmonious and a vivid portrayal of truth as it is in Scriptures.

Sadly, Lys cannot simply harmonize his view with what Scriptures say and the best option of course is to evade.

You still yet need to explain the point you're trying to make. I'm not sure what it is I'm not "harmonizing". What exactly are you trying to say, in short words? You're quoting a lot of scriptures, which I agree with, but I'm not sure what is it in the Adventist view you are disagreeing with concerning the resurrections. You admit there are 2 resurrections. So what are you trying to say?

Lys,

Aren't you reading my posts you don't know what I am trying to say? If you had read them, then why still ask?

If not, then just read them please; even just the two posts previous to this one. I think those two posts are sufficient to satisfy your curiosity as to what I am trying to say.