Is there life beyond Daniel and Revelation?

[Guest DennisKean]

Daniel and Revelation have been beaten to death and masticated beyond recognition. The problem with referencing only Daniel and Revelation is that there is only so much resolution in it. Wouldn't it be nice if we could find other prophets who could help us resolve some dilemmas or fill in more details?

Ah, why didn't God give us more prophets to expand our view and not have to fight over uncertain comments of Daniel and Revelation?

Wait a minute! What am I saying? There are other prophets in the Bible! Oh, yes, I remember this one prophet or maybe two! Yeah... Yeah, man I think I'm going to try reading a little from those prophets! Yes...

Yes, but the SDABC tells us that most of those prophecies have never been fulfilled! In fact it asserts that those are predictions, not prophecies???

Quote:

Few passages of Scripture are more commonly misunderstood and variously interpreted than those containing the divine promises made to ancient Israel through the prophets. It is an undeniable historical fact that, to this day, the majority of these predictions have not been fulfilled. SDA Bible Commentary Vol. 4 p.25

So, we are back to square one! There really is nothing more is there? God appointed so many prophets and low and behold the majority of their predictions have not been fulfilled! Wow!

Quote:

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The question which comes to mind is this. What is the point of being an Adventist, if our God makes predictions, instead of prophecies and most of them have not been fulfilled? The SDABC clearly said, "IT IS UNDENIABLE!" Right?

Undeniable! Undeniable? Has anyone on this forum read this before? Who wrote this? Was this an Adventist Atheist?

My challenge to you is to check out The Other Prophecies and see if this is really true! But rather than meandering randomly through the Bible, I would like to supervise this process for a short time so we can test this idea and see if God's prophets are reliable and/or why their predictions failed. (Why does my mouth feel dirty as I write this word predictions???). Once the point is across we can have a free for all and I will back out of it.

Of course, I would not do this unless I was confident that God is reliable and we can trust His plans which He presents through the prophets to His people. God does not predict things, nor does He fail to carry out His plans. Nostradamus predicts things. God plans and carries out His plans faithfully!

Quote:

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

I would like to start with a prophecy which is well known to most if not all of us, so that we have a sense of confidence at the start.

Isaiah 53 is fairly well known and accepted, though some interpret things this way and others another, on the average most will agree that this chapter discusses the Savior and His death on the cross.

So, for starters, my question to you is this. Are prophecies written in any sort of order, or are they discombobulated presenting one picture in chapter 53 and other unrelated concerns in the next chapter? What is your impression of that.

The reason I ask this is that I have seen even in your forum how Revelation 13 is understood to flow. It does not flow in a straight line and every individual who engages to interpret it offers apologetics with strong rationalizations to iron out what seems to be a folded line turning back on itself a few times.

Being that we SDAs are mainly Historicists, are prophecies recorded linearly or are they jumbled up?

Dennis

[Kevin H]

The big problem is the role of Tradition, and how we have the answers and how too much of our study is to prove we are right.

There is a article that I would like to recommend for getting out of this route. Now while this chapter gives a macro view of the stituation, as we study the Bible we can (and should) make a micro application. (in other words this chapter gives a basic outline and we can make more detailed applications to the specific parts of history)

The article is found in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, in the volume that includes the books of Jeremiah and Amos etc. titled "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" I cannot overstate the importance of this chapter. When I was at Atlantic Union College we were required to read this chapter every semester and write a paper on it (and no we could not turn in the same paper every time). But before you read this read Deuteronomy 4 and Leviticus 23.

We have a two step program. First we have to see what it meant to the people back then, and use things such as archaeology, the MacMillian Bible Atlas, John Bright's "A History of Israel" Aharoni's "The Land of the Bible" The Anchor Bible and histories (actually Daniel should be studied through histories, I think a good one is titled something like Cambrage ancient History, since too many Bible Commentaries place Daniel in the time of Antichious, which is wrong, or else have Daniel placed in Babylon but has him sitting by the waters of babylon crying because the pope is coming.) And to understand the thought process of the Bible (and to understand the Day-Year issue) there is the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others (1946 University of Chicago Press: Sadly out of print but a few copies are floating around, why our church does not get the rights to it and re-copy it I cannot understand as it would answer so many of the things we are debating over.)

All prophecies had local applications, how they either were or could have been fulfilled then. Now some of these end up being refulled in a fuller sense, others were not fulfilled and we needed to cycle around again. And then there are the later applicatons.

For example the Prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. We all know it was a prophecy of Jesus. However the context is that king Ahaz was worried about a couple of kings that is about to attack him. Isaiah is trying to get the king to trust in God, but the king is not inclined to trust in God. The king is told to ask for a sign. When the king didn't then Isaiah gave him a sign, a baby that before that baby is able to know the difference between good and evil, those other kings that the king was worried about would be history.

Do you see how rediculious we look as if we want to ONLY apply that text to Jesus? We have Isaiah saying to the king "Don't worry, in 500 years a baby wil be born and before that baby can tell the difference between right and wrong those kings you worry about will no longer be a threat. So just hold on for 500 years and everything would be alright" Like that will relieave the king's anxiety and encourage him to trust in God.

We have the local application of a baby born around that time, and it is reapplied by analogy to that baby where God was with us in a very special way five hundred years later.

The basic premis is that the Lord on the one hand could have come err this. That God had worked in different times in history with different generations where the gosple could have spread and the Lord could have come and the Bible gives us the details about what could and would have happened. Just like how the Hebrews could have entered the promised land but went into the desert for 40 years and cycled around again, so we find these prophecies going through cycles. Each time we return to the crisis point in the cycle it covers larger and larger areas of geography leading to the final cycle where it will cover the whole world. We tend to speculate on how it is going to be fulfilled instead of studying how it could have been fulfilled and from that draw the principles that we will face.

There are so many things that we are lost on because of our reliance on tradition. Some of these include:

What are the three deceptions of Satan that Mrs. White keeps emphesising and telling us to know?

How did Daniel 8:14 originally fit into Daniel's theology? Was it the same in Daneil 9? Where is the other 2300 day prophecy in scripture?

What was Daniel's understanding of Daniel 2? Is it the same as his understanding in Daniel 7 and 8?

What would have happened if Jesus was accepted when he was here?

Are there topics where we can be on the right track but that there are ways how we can grow into a deeper understanding and better applications because of the deeper knowlege, or did what we believe in the past become utter nonsence that we would either need to prove is the only application or do we need to throw it out?

I hope you find this useful!

[Kevin H]

Ok, let's take Isaiah 53, and I wish I had more time to build what I am going to say here based on Deuteronomy 4 (actually for Isaiah I'd have to build it more on Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers, rather than Deuteronomy itself, but Just as Leviticus 23 gives us a nice package which is spread out in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 4 is a nice package of what is spread out across Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers). This may sound confusing at first but after reading Deuteronmy 4 and "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" (and maybe some medatation on these writings) this would make more sense.

The principle is what DID it mean in Isaiah's day and from this we can draw analogies to what DOES it mean to us. Type and Antitype was proprosed by priests during the dark ages to explain these things in the Bible. Type and Antitype is not quite accurate but close enough and what we understand so as we look at these we can discuss it as type and antitype.

I could go into some more background of the writings of the Isaiah Prophetic School, but won't. I'll just say that Isaiah 53 was looking at the exile and giving a different perspective of the exile. We all know that the exile was to punish the Hebrews for being unfaithful. But Isaiah 53 also gives a different perspective, that God let his people suffer so that they could mix with other nations also in exile to minister to these people. The Hebrews in exile was God's gift to the other nations in exile to minister to them. This is what the writer and original readers had in mind.

But this has God's people suffering in exile to minister to others as a type which would meet it's antitype in the Messiah coming and suffer for the whole world.

I hope this helps, and shows us the two questions we need to ask while we study.

[Kevin H]

I would like to copy here some posts I made on another forum asking the question "Do you see evidence now that suggests Jesus is more likely to return within our lifetime than in previous generations?"

My answers also help to show how we can get Daneil, Revelation and the other prophets to come to life and deal with your excellent question and post Dennis. Please forgive me for not editing it to fit your wording than the other question, but I hope you and others will find these useful. I am using the tools that you seem to be realizing that we are not using and are asking us to use to make a oneness of the opposits of 1. Show how the Bible teaches that the Lord could have come err this and 2 why we are today living in the perfect time for the Lord to come more so than any other time in the past:

First of all, yes, I believe that there is a lot of evidence that Jesus is more likely to return within our lifetime than in previous generations. However before looking at that I would like to lay some ground work.

I believe that the timing of the second coming is based in a tension: On the one hand God sees the end from the begining and that God's purposes need neither haste nor delay. But on the other hand God works with freedom of choice and gives each generation the chance to hasten the setting up of the kingdom, and there were times where we were at more of an opputunity than at other times. There have been times where we were on the border of the promised land and return to another cycle in the wilderness.

I want to recommend reading an article in the SDABC (the volume that covers the books of the prophets) titled "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy"

Another important reading is Deuteronomy chapter 4. This gives two possible histories for Biblical Israel. One is where they stay in the land, are faithful, God would bless them, which would have caught the attention of the other nations who woud come to find out why they were blessed and Israel would have shared their God. Nations would have either joined with, or rejected Israel and their God eventually leading up to an eschatological war. Or else Israel would have been unfaithtful and God would send curses with hopes of chagning them, and if nothing else worked they would go into exile. Deuteronomy 4 describes the exile as the last days. As you study out the thread through the Bible, they were to share their God with their neighbors, talking about their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness. The exile was suposed to end with the Messiah leading a second great exodus home.

Hezikiah had a powerful reformation. According to the book "Lies My Teacher Told me" I found it interesting that (while Hezikiah was not mentioned) that the time frame of Hezikiah, the Phenicians, Israel's neighbor to the north (which would from time to time flirt with monotheism and would have times of good realtionships with the Hebrews) had also been able to sail to the Americas. Their ships were not big enought for it to be frequent trips nor for much trade, but enough where they could have taken missionaries. Hezikiah's reformation could have been a world wide reformation. Hezikiah got sick, Hezikiah was told to prepare to die. Hezikiah prayed and was healed, since wicked king Manasseh was born during those years, we tend to think that the message is "shut up and do as you are told." but in light of Deuteronomy 4 (and other chapters as well) God wanted Hezikiah to pray for healing. God wanted to heal Hezikiah. This healing was to attract the emesaries from Babylon. Hezikiah was to share with them his true wealth, his God. Instead he showed them his stuff. Instead of sending the gospel to Babylon, they went home with memories of his stuff and the determination that they would be back to get it. Instead of wicked king Manasseh, as Hezikiah's reform spread to Babylon, Asia, Europe and what was to become called the Americas, Hezikiah could have been the father or grandfather of good king Joshua and the Messiah setting up his kingdom. Instead of the Messiah's kingdom the world went under a period of someone else ruling in place of the messiah, or in Greek Anti-Messiah, or Antichrist.

[Kevin H]

In Daniel 2 there are four metals in 7 parts. The metals represented four kings. In Daniel four kings are mentioned. After these kings the Messiah could have come and lead a great exodus home and set up the kingdom. But it was based on the condition that they share the Gospel with their neighbors.

Daniel 7 starts to expand the 4 individual kings, with 7 parts, into kingdoms, there is still the hope that the exile would be the last days, Daniel 8 continues but more likely that time would be longer because they only had a short time to spread the gospel. Daniel 8 was given the year that happened to include the day that was exactly 2300 days from the night of Belshazzar's feast. Daniel 8:14 says 2300 evenings-mornings, a reference to the idea of cycles, rather than a specific word for days or years.

We learn about the Hebrew Cycles from Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy. Leviticus 23 gives the weekly cycle; a Hebrew week was 6 days and the Sabbath, 6 months and the sabbath of the day of Atonement or Passover. 6 years and the sabatical year, and 6 sabbatical years and the jublee. Thus an evening-morning cycle meant days, months, years or sabbatical years, a 7th section of the weekly, half year, whole year and Jublee cycle. Now a difference between Deuteronomy and Leviticus is that we don't have the jublee in Deuteronomy. Since Daniel was s deuteronomist, his cycles were days, half years or full years. Jesus did NOT have to wait for 1844. 1844 was simily the last possibility for the fulfillment of the text.

Matthew 24, and the similar chapters tie together the fall of Jerusalem with the second coming. The fall of Jerusalem was done by Titus. Titus and his father and brother was the Flavian Emperors:

There were 10 Roman emperors. The Flavian family uprooted three of them. Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, His brother Domatian healed up the deadly wound of the persecution that Nero had by exiling John and wanted him to live in exile knowing that his precious flock was being persecuted. John kept telling them to preach again despite the marterdom. This could have fulfilled Daniel 7.

The first part of this thread wanted to point out how God has given us periods of time where Jesus could have come. The Lord could have come err this. Jesus is not waiting for a specific time to be fulfilled. Even the 2300 days could have been fulfilled before 1844. The context of Daniel 8:14 was with in the year that held 2300 days until Belshazzar's feast, the last 2300 days of Babylon. In Daniel 9 the Hebrews were to return to the land in a lack luster return, not the expected glorious second exodus lead by the Messiah. And we find the start of the cycle to be with the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Daniel 9-12 and Ezekiel were predictions as to what WOULD have happened had the Jews accepted Jesus. The time period in Ezekiel 39 is 2310 days. If you subtract the 10 days from New Years day to the Day of Atonement you have another 2300 day prophecy. Here it tells what would have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came and thus be able to set up the kingdom then, the 2300 days would have been fulfilled as the last 2300 days of the 70 weeks.

This is a little more evidence that the Lord could have come err this.

[Kevin H]

Now to start the other side, why are we closer than never before. We again return to the cycles. We have things starting with just a married couple. Then it expanded to their family, then it cycled around again as their family became a people then a nation. Then a nation in exile and dealing with things such as Nebuccadnezzar's Image, and praying to only the Kind or being thrown to the lions, but focused on a small part of the Middle East.

Then we find it expanding to include that small part of the middle east but the whole The Mediterranean Sea. But that is still only a part of the world.

We see the same issues repeating themselves but as they come around they include more and more of the world.

Living in a time where there is mass communicaitons gives a chance to have a universal death decree with a set moment. This could not have been done until today.

We have the 7 periods of Anti-Chirsit, nations ruling instead of Christ since Christ could have rulled had Hezikiah's reformation spread to the whole world: Babylon, Medio-persia, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman Empire (incuding Papal Supremicy), the deadly wound (no great world empire, but independent nations) and the deadly wound being healed. Revelation 18 describes (and I'm tired and won't go into the details) that the final empire is to be economic cooperation and corporetism. Today we have the corporations owning each other, with about 200 families of the super rich that are getting ownership of the world.

Eisenhower was warning us about this growing as he was leaving office. I know that there are strong and weak points to the conspericy theories, however Kennedy, like Eisenhower was conserned and trying to limit the power of the military industeral state, such as the Oil Company. Well durring an Oil Company convention in Dallas, this upstart who was trying to limit their power happened to be killed and replaced by Johnson, an oil man and servant for the military industral state and federal reserve. Reagan was an outsider but was undecided as to how he was going to relate to them, and was told by them that he could be President as long as George Bush was is vice President. Then he got shot by the son of one of Bush's business partners and Reagan lived, but had to become just a "yes man" for the policies of the federal reserve and to build up the military industural state. Right now everyone who is running for President, except for Ron Paul, are representatives of the Federal Reserve and military industrual state. The patarot act an other rules, especially over the past 12 years such as never before, we have been loosing our constitutional rights, and it is growing into a power that is controling every human on earth.

We have never seen this before...

Reveation talks about the scorching sun and the sea not able to support life. We are facing global warming (which is being down played using the same methods as those who were trying to say that tobacco does not cause cancer). There is a section of plastic in the middle of the Pacific which is bigger than the US and Canada. As ocean life enters it there is no oxigen, they just breath plastic and it is small shards that cut them on the inside. It is predicted that by the 2040s that life will no longer exist in the sea. Here we see two prophecies of Revelation about to be fulfilled, which has never happened before. And the down playing of global warming can bring us to the point where it becomes a crisis and our own choice is to suddenly attach ourselves to a leader who can deliver us from this crisis-- would that be the anti christ? Especially when Satan comes claiming to be Jesus and encourages us to join this movement.

As I mentioned in Passing we have the telecommunications that can fulfill Mrs. White's prediction of the death decree.

We find that the Papacy supports the military industrual state and they are it's moral voice, thus fulfilling the prophecies about the Pope.

We have all these with a world wide scope that can affect every human. We have never had this before.

Now, I believe that the 2300 days at it's longest fulfillment, the years met in 1844 is the longest time prophecy there is and that we are not to pick another time. However it is interesting on how Jeremiah has an applicaiton for 70 years of exile, then Daniel has a 70 Sabbatical years for Biblical Israel. In 2050 we will reach the 70th jublee. Of course we must remember the conditon and the promise. The condition is when the gospel is spread into all the world, then shall the end come. And also unless those days be shortened there would be no life left and thus those days shall be shortened. Could there e 70 jublees for the world, only that the days would not quite reach that day but those days being shortened?

But basically share Jesus and thiat will fulfill the prophecy, not in the specific details as to how the prophets were encouraging us to fulfill them in the past. The promises for the land were given when that piece of land was the major intersection of the trade routes for the anceint world. Today it is no longer the center of the world so God is using us by what Deuteronomy 4 pictures as exile theology. I hope you find this useful to encourage us to study the other prophets and as a tool in our study.

[Gustave]

The SDABC is looking at this from the perspective of protecting Ellen White's status as a prophet...

...Therefore Ellen's anti-Trinitarian views are built-in to SDA theology.

...You can't have fulfillment in the prophecy of Daniel & at the same time have SDA rubrics be true.

...Let the Scriptures be broken before Ellen White be shown false.

[Guest DennisKean]

I enjoyed your comments a lot, Kevin. And I am very happy that you chose to reply. I understand your concerns and have gone through those and many others over the last 4 decades. It shows that you are a genuine student motivated from within -- something very rare to find.

First, let me apologize for not responding to you earlier. This topic was moved and my reference to it was not triggering my email reminders that someone is responding. And your excellent insight, so far deserved my attention.

The example you gave with Isa 7:14, long ago prompted me to think and try to somehow understand about how it could possibly apply. Some comments seem so clear, while others simply do not fit and are so out of place. Your description was excellent.

But what I finally understood from this is that God was aware of this while dictating to Isaiah what to write. This was not done as some poorly concocted endeavor. God was arranging the circumstances for Isaiah to convey just what he conveyed in order to compel us into recognizing the idea of dynamic symbol assignment.

You see, if you translate Ahaz into a category of men who avoid involvement with God, you suddenly perceive that Ahaz is a symbolic object whose properties are not all employed in this circumstantial complex. Programmers can identify with this readily. It is referred to as Object Oriented Programming. It is a way of reusing complex structures, stripping their properties and adapting them to perform a function which looks nothing like the original purpose of the object. And there is a name associated with this. It is polymorphism. If you are a programmer, you know exactly what I am talking about.

The idea of making use of polymorphism is to compress the information into a radically smaller package than it would take, were the author trying to do it all from scratch, elaborating on every element.

Please stay with me, if it seems confusing. I will give you an example so you see it easily. Do you remember the dream of Joseph? when He was in Egypt? He dreamed about 7 fat cows and 7 skinny cows. One might well question how a cow could be mistaken for a year, but that was the idea which God chose to employ. Of course that was not the only time that God used structured objects to convey greater and more complex structures. The prophecies are based on this shortcut method of harvesting objects whose properties map the subject at hand. And not all properties of the object chosen need to be used. The story helps the reader to strip the unnecessary properties and get the picture.

As an example Ahaz's attitude was upsetting to God, so it is highlighted by the real story, and nothing more was used to convey the message that God has wonderful news for all people but some people do not care and pretend that it is their piety which compels then not to tempt God. The generation of people who lived in the time of the Savior were so disposed. Their pretense at piety and their refusal of the Savior were highlighted herewith. Therefore God will gave them a sign and so forth.

I really like how well you have set the stage for this dialogue Kevin.

I will respond more to you on this. But read this and we can stay in sync!

[Guest DennisKean]

Kevin,

I do appreciate your view on this and know that many SDA scholars talk about "God could have wrapped it all up earlier only if..." But I cannot concur with that. The reason is that I see more prophecies which do not convey this idea. I know that EGW suggested that the Jahua and Caleb spying on the land and the 40 days discussed there could have been a cycle to complete and wrap things up, but that idea was not hers. And while interesting, it does not agree with a prophecy which is in the Bible, but which is encoded in a different way than being told through prophets.

In a book which I have not finished yet, I write about this and am able to show that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Esau were used in a living story conveyed as I term it "Mega-Parable" to discuss events from before the creation of the world all the way up to the Second coming of the Savior. In the lives of all these actors who did not even know that they were in God's Holywood, God orchestrated some amazing outcomes for the purpose of reaching distant generations from that time. In that allegory is encoded the time that Israel would take from going into Egypt to Caanan.

I cannot go into this with many details, but I will give you enough to help you see why I do not believe in the "possible sooner wrap-up". God outlined the exact number of years for Israel to to reach Caanan as follows.

Abraham played the role of the Father. Ishmael represented Lucifer. Isaac was the the Son of God. Jacob and Esau portrayed the saved and the lost people as an abstract symbol only. There are more players there, but if you think that I am nuts, then consider this verse and perhaps that will help you to maintain your interest before dismissing me as a nut case.

Quote:

Rom_9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Heb_11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Why would this comment ever be advanced. Many people have no clue! But there is a strong body of evidence for this idea, Kevin. In time we can explore it and it will bring a smile to your face.

Anyway, Jacob offered a bunch of animals to Esau. Those animals outline 470 years. And those animals represent the number of years it would take for literal Israel to reach Caanan. Why would we imagine such crazy things? Jacob represents God's chosen, while Esau represents those who were not. That sets Israel as being in bondage and hardship for a total of 470 years. (It is a little involved on how this works, but I can explain it to you as we go. I just wanted you to know why I believed this, at this time.)

So, this variant on the theme of when salvation could have arrive, though appealing is not possible, since God made this plan ahead of time. Please feel free to ask for clarifications. My feeling is that God has made this agreement in how long with Lucifer to give him time to prove his points of rebellion.

[Guest DennisKean]

Kevin,

I understand this very well and have considered it. But there is so much to show that this impossible, yet I cannot show it to you all quickly. But I will do my best.

But in order to do this, I will have to flood you with assumptions and later show you the evidence of their foundation. Hope you are with me on that. Here we go...

We all accept the day for a year principle. What we do not seem to recognize is that some prophecies which have never been fulfilled are inscribed with years. One such prophecy is Isaiah 23. And to get to the point we have this strange comment:

Quote:

15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.

16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.

17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

With the whole world??? Ah how long would 70 years come out to be? 70x360=25,200 prophetic years! Wow, rather long, wouldn't you say? So that is not going to work. Well, there was nothing really applicable to any literal 70 years in Isaiah's time either. Many scholars have struggled over that one too. But if you set one year to one prophetic Jubilee, then you bring these events into our day and time. How is that? Hmmm... Exodus to the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel is exactly 30 Jubilees or 34 AD. And from 34 AD to 1994 AD we get 40 Jubilees. Sum them up and we get 70 prophetic years.

But that would all be nice and dandy, if something was fulfilled in 1994 AD. So, this must be false as well. But wait a minute? EGW spoke of Israel reaching Canaan as a type of the 2nd coming naming it Heavenly Canaan! And strangely enough, it took Israel to get into Canaan exactly 70 years once God's prophecy to Abraham was fulfilled. And what was that prophecy? God told Abraham that they would be in bondage for 400 years. And they were. But Exodus took place 430 years later! So take those 30 years and add them to the 40 years in the wilderness and you now can see a global image which preserves its integrity by discussing years as Jubilees.

Quote:

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

I hope that I have not lost you there. But both of these patterns lock the timeline into an unchangeable format. For if these truly were allegories with prophetic intent, then any earlier resolution of sin would wreck these plans and make them futile. Yet, Paul says that they suffered for our sake. It is hard to imagine that God would put them thru all this and then cast it all away.

Furthermore, that would make God into a speculator like Nostradamus! His assurance that He can accomplish this and that would be rather week. If prophecies are based on the outcome which is in the hands of the people, then God cannot guarantee them!

And that is the flaw in this speculation about "It could have ended much sooner!"

Yet God assures us that His words of prophecy are sure!

Quote:

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

So, can you understand why I cannot accept that God has no real control. And as far as the idea that God know the end from the beginning, how could that ever be possible since God would know for sure when this and that would occur.

But to compound the problem, I do not believe that God has a crystal ball. And here is why. "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"

God makes plans for the future and He guarantees them. So, my dear SDABC scholars simply cannot evict God's prophecies as they have done. It is a tragedy that they rationalize such a solution as this. I struggled with that "Could have been accomplished" idea in my youth, some 45 years ago and it took a superhuman effort for me to see that it was just a human concoction.

Also, I hope that my position does not offend you Kevin. I know that we all hold dear some ideas on which we work for a long time. I just believe that God's words are the very soul of our lives.

Quote:

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The day that I accept that idea will be the day when I renounce my faith. (I mean by default, not as a threat.)

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

The SDABC is looking at this from the perspective of protecting Ellen White's status as a prophet...

...Therefore Ellen's anti-Trinitarian views are built-in to SDA theology.

...You can't have fulfillment in the prophecy of Daniel & at the same time have SDA rubrics be true.

...Let the Scriptures be broken before Ellen White be shown false.

Gustave,

This is a forum. Assertions are not arguments. You can assert to your kids and get somewhere, but not to us. And I have learned that the Godhead is composed of three separate living beings from EGW. So you are wrong on that front! The rest is your anti-SDA rhetoric. Excuse me if I dose off!

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Kevin,

Do I detect that you like Ron Paul? Me too! That man has a solid head on his shoulders.

Well, the 70 Jubilees makes good sense to me. How did you arrive at that???

Dennis

[Gustave]

So, can you understand why I cannot accept that God has no real control. And as far as the idea that God know the end from the beginning, how could that ever be possible since God would know for sure when this and that would occur.

But to compound the problem, I do not believe that God has a crystal ball. And here is why. "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"

God makes plans for the future and He guarantees them. So, my dear SDABC scholars simply cannot evict God's prophecies as they have done. It is a tragedy that they rationalize such a solution as this. I struggled with that "Could have been accomplished" idea in my youth, some 45 years ago and it took a superhuman effort for me to see that it was just a human concoction.

I've been saying this same thing since I discovered the Trinity issues within SDAism...

...I'm not sure if you've had a chance to read the Nicene Creed thread.

...In it you will find the premise you just mentioned.

I think we are looking at this from the same perspective...

...I.E. What God has purposed is exactly what will happen.

Jesus affirmed this multiple times.

Luke 24,44

And he said unto them, THESE are the words which I spake unto you, WHILE I was yet with you, that ALL things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

To me that's Jesus telling the Apostles that they should not be shocked He was there....

...Because He told them exactly what would happen before it happened.

...And that it "had to happen".

Myself, I have a hard time believing that Christ would have observed a false feast...

...He would have said something about it - gave a teaching, something.

John 10,21

Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, AND it was winter. AND Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch

That's Hanukkah & the ONLY meaning it had to any Jew who observed it...

...Was that the Temple had been re-dedicated ( cleansed ).

...So that it could again be placed into "Liturgical" use.

Had people been participating in Liturgy at a still poluted Temple Jesus would have certainly said something about it...

...Can you imagine Simeon, under direction of the Holy Spirit.

...Performing the ritual for Jesus in a poluted temple?

...I can't.

Yet that appears as what the SDABC is asking people to believe...

...By claiming the temple couldn't have been cleansed or worse.

...That the temple in heaven was poluted but the one on earth wasn't.

...That doesn't sound right.

[Guest DennisKean]

The Roman Catholic church corrupted the relationship of man and God by imposing itself between them, Gustave! That was the pollution of the now invisible Sanctuary. The Savior dismissed Herod's temple and showed His followers how to connect with God directly, through His name.

Quote:

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That sanctuary, though conceptual, was invaded with the Sacrament of Reconciliation as man took over the duties of the Savior to dispense absolution instead of God's forgiveness. By telling people that they must come into a booth, confess their sins to a man and call him Father, (Another violation of the Savior's request) they polluted God's relationship with man!

Quote:

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

So, I'm not sure that we have that much in common, Gustave.

Dennis

[Gustave]

On one hand you admit that God knows the end from the beginning....

...And also admit that God fulfills His purpose.

...Once Ellen White says "NO" in something God said He would do.

...You go with E.G.W.

You're right, we don't have a lot in common.

[Gustave]

All I'm asking for here is a little consideration to the point I've made in several threads here....

...Points that you Denniskean said you were in affirmation of.

Jesus prior to His death on the Cross said that everything said about Him in the Books of Moses, Psalms and Prophets...

..."Had to be fulfilled" / after Jesus' Resurrection He told the Apostles again.

...That everything that was said about Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED & even reminded them He had already told them this.

Seriously Dennis, what point is there in spending hundreds of hours pouring over the meaning of prophecy....

...When you pick and choose which prophecy is valid based off Ellen White's interpretation of it?

...God coming AND saving humanity is the PRIMARY prophecy of Scirpture.

I'm frankly shocked SDA's couldn't get that concept with the time they spend in the Book of Daniel.....

...Daniel is about as explicit as it gets.

Daniel 2,44

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall NEVER be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER

Might stand for ever Daniel should-a said....

...Because according to James & Ellen White.

...Jesus could have sinned and the world would have been a write - off.

You can apply the same to each and every positive affirming about God saving us Dennis....

...So if you don't want to cross theological swords with me that's fine.

...At the end of the day you have your belief in Ellen White.

...And can continue to slander the Catholic Church.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

All I'm asking for here is a little consideration to the point I've made in several threads here....

...Points that you Denniskean said you were in affirmation of.

Okay, Gustave. Let me respond to your points.

Quote:

Jesus prior to His death on the Cross said that everything said about Him in the Books of Moses, Psalms and Prophets...

..."Had to be fulfilled" / after Jesus' Resurrection He told the Apostles again.

...That everything that was said about Him HAD TO BE FULFILLED & even reminded them He had already told them this.

I believe that you are correct on this. Prophecies cannot be converted into predictions which are like a pair of dice...7 and you win.

Quote:

Seriously Dennis, what point is there in spending hundreds of hours pouring over the meaning of prophecy....

...When you pick and choose which prophecy is valid based off Ellen White's interpretation of it?

...God coming AND saving humanity is the PRIMARY prophecy of Scirpture.

I like EGW, but the Bible is everything to me. EGW said herself that she is not infallible. All SDAs know that.

Quote:

I'm frankly shocked SDA's couldn't get that concept with the time they spend in the Book of Daniel.....

...Daniel is about as explicit as it gets.

Daniel 2,44

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall NEVER be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER

Might stand for ever Daniel should-a said....

...Because according to James & Ellen White.

...Jesus could have sinned and the world would have been a write - off.

I understand your point. But you are not seeing the implications. You are mixing up two separate issues into one. Prophecies are God's plans. I believe that they are flawless plans, Gustave. We agree on things so far.

But God's character was what no one knew about for sure. God having all the power in his grip cannot be tested to be sure that He is truly kind, merciful unto the core of His being. And the core of His being is His own life! It is very easy to be forgiving when you know that no one can touch you! The Mafia bosses do it occasionally to impress and appear gallant. But the true character comes up when you are injured or when you are without power and authority.

Lucifer stalled his own judgement indefinitely by counter suing God as the author of who he was. The idea was that if God was perfect, then he Lucifer would not have failed. But God replies to that charge:

Quote:

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

However, this argument cannot be settled until God's character can be tested under fire. So, God arranged for the Savior to come into this world without his overwhelming might so that His real character could be seen when He is powerless.

Quote:

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Of course, while with us, the Savior had all His power available to Himself, but if He should have used it to help Himself, the battle with Lucifer would have been lost.

Here is where you come in and claim that God had a plan and everything was pre-designed and arranged for a show of victory! But that would have been a farce...then... nothing but a good Broadway show and we go on! No real risk, just play the part and we go on to the next scene! That is how the networks do the TV shows. It is a big farce.

Now, let's go back to the Savior, Gustave. The Savior made plans and through the prophets expressed them. But if He was not victorious and reached for the hand of power to help Himself, He would have failed. The three temptations in the wilderness after the Savior fasted were designed to do a preliminary test and see how well things would go. The consequences of this failure would be that the plans or prophecies given would and could not be fulfilled. His mighty power would have been lost to Him. The entire government of God was at stake.

Now, I know you are going to react here, but I will give you Biblical support for this too! We wouldn't have it any other way, my friend. In Revelation chapter 5 we are presented with a scene about a big scroll written on both sides and sealed with 7 seals. But as it turns out, no one is able to open the seals! And John finds himself lamenting and being upset about that. Well... let's read the story...

Quote:

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

If we look at the next chapter Revelation 6 we notice that the seals were opened and low and behold in them are found prophecies in seven parts.

So now we know what is in those scrolls. So, John is crying, but an elder comes to comfort him with good news!

Quote:

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The idea presented here is that only the Savior could unseal the events of the future as inscribed in that scroll if He was victorious. But if victory was assured to Him, Gustave, then it would all have been an act! Therefore, it must be that this victory could have been lost. God took a chance! Now we know that He would be fair in judgement unto death! And as He was led to the cross, being nailed to it, in stark contrast to someone lesser, He cries out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do..." In the fiercest hour He is still thinking about fairness and justice. Man this is the God I want for me in Judgement! This is the God I can love.

And as time is progressing and He is bleeding out, with all vitality gone, He is met with another arbitration. "Today, I say unto you, Thou shalt be with me ..." This was a victory of a great heart. This is a God who deserves the right to preside as judge.

Quote:

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

What was that we just read, angels telling the Savior that He is worthy? What sort of blasphemy is that, Gustave??? It would be a blasphemy if His character was not being tested. But that implies doubt about God. And it implies that this had to be a real test. Loss, great loss would have taken place. God would not have been in charge of the future of this world, and that scroll would have to have been destroyed.

So, Gustave, without this victory, God's plans for the future would have failed. God could not have carried out or opened the prophetic scroll to work out His plans.

And that is the substance of the point you deny so vociferously.

Quote:

You can apply the same to each and every positive affirming about God saving us Dennis....

...So if you don't want to cross theological swords with me that's fine.

...At the end of the day you have your belief in Ellen White.

...And can continue to slander the Catholic Church.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

On one hand you admit that God knows the end from the beginning....

...And also admit that God fulfills His purpose.

...Once Ellen White says "NO" in something God said He would do.

...You go with E.G.W.

You're right, we don't have a lot in common.

Gustave, please help me to see where I admit that God knows the End from the beginning?

Dennis

[Gustave]

Part 1

I believe that you are correct on this. Prophecies cannot be converted into predictions which are like a pair of dice...7 and you win.

[Gustave]

Part 2

The idea presented here is that only the Savior could unseal the events of the future as inscribed in that scroll if He was victorious. But if victory was assured to Him, Gustave, then it would all have been an act! Therefore, it must be that this victory could have been lost. God took a chance! Now we know that He would be fair in judgement unto death! And as He was led to the cross, being nailed to it, in stark contrast to someone lesser, He cries out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do..." In the fiercest hour He is still thinking about fairness and justice. Man this is the God I want for me in Judgement! This is the God I can love

[Overaged]

Daniel and Revelation have been beaten to death and masticated beyond recognition.

Jer_15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

It is good to "eat" the word. Mat 4:4

I think that most of us have not really done this yet with Daniel & Revelation; not any of the other prophecies in the Bible.

[Overaged]

...And can continue to slander the Catholic Church.

Do you not think it possible that you are pretty close to slandering the Adventist Church when you continue with your disparaging remarks about Ellen White? Providing some polite Biblical responses would be better. But to weave in your private interpretation of her take on the nature of Christ into many multiple forum topics here, well; there are words for that.

[Lysimachus]

Thanks to Gustave, I think he completely chased away my good friend Dennis.

Just when I thought we were getting into some important subjects about the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation, Gustave had to hijack this thread and turn it into a Trinity discussion.

[Gustave]

Thanks to Gustave, I think he completely chased away my good friend Dennis.

Just when I thought we were getting into some important subjects about the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation, Gustave had to hijack this thread and turn it into a Trinity discussion.

Based on his pm to me I can assure you I didn't chase him away...

...He is simply reading my answer and coming up with his own answers.

[Kevin H]

And it is not only discussing the Trinity, but feeling that he has a need to tell us that we do not believe the trinity despite what we claim. However we don't need to focus on his hijack, we have the freedom to return to this study.