Is there life beyond Daniel and Revelation?

[Gustave]

And it is not only discussing the Trinity, but feeling that he has a need to tell us that we do not believe the trinity despite what we claim. However we don't need to focus on his hijack, we have the freedom to return to this study.

It's NOT a hijack Kevin - read the O.P.

...It's making an affirmation that Prophecy in Scripture.

...Is NOT a prediction - it's simply something that WILL happen.

...According to the purpose of God.

Scripture, long before the Incarnation of Christ affirmed that God would come & WOULD save us...

...& because Ellen White said this specific Prophecy ( mentioned over 100 times in the Bible )might NOT have happened.

...It MOVES this spcific Prophecy completely out of the prophecy camp.

...And places it in the area of Nostradamus.

What possibility was there in your mind Kevin that The Christ...

...Would NOT be born of a Virgin?

Take your answer to the above question and apply it to the even more explicit Biblical affirmation...

...That the Savior WOULD die for man and that He would be SINLESS at His death.

Then ask youself WHY you don't apply the same reasoning to the question about The Christ being born of a Virgin....

...That you DO APPLY to the possibility of the Christ sinning and loosing His own salvation.

Please post your answer to this question and tell me I'm off base...

...In saying SDA's don't believe in the Trinity.

[cheddar]

Scripture, long before the Incarnation of Christ affirmed that God would come & WOULD save us...

...& because Ellen White said this specific Prophecy ( mentioned over 100 times in the Bible )might NOT have happened.

...It MOVES this spcific Prophecy completely out of the prophecy camp.

...And places it in the area of Nostradamus.

It is kind of a hijack seeing that there's already a thread going on about the trinity. Why bring it over here to the Dan./Rev./prophecy thread?

I personally think you are basing your whole argument on a few statements. We know that Jesus was 100% God and at the same time 100% man. It is absolutely impossible for God to sin but it is possible for man to sin.

It seems to me you are focusing exclusively on the divinity of Christ and neglecting his humanity. Jesus was called the 2nd Adam for a reason.

[jasd]

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Hijack? Ain not no hijack -- and even if it should be a hijack, why -- take truths wherever they are found!

Truths are like pearls of great price, and even were they as bits of coin beneath dust bunnies in the corner -- they ought elicit a positive response upon their finding. So saying...:

>>The Roman Catholic church corrupted the relationship of man and God by imposing itself between them, Gustave! That was the pollution of the now invisible Sanctuary. [...] That sanctuary, though conceptual, was invaded with the Sacrament of Reconciliation as man took over the duties of the Savior to dispense absolution instead of God's forgiveness. By telling people that they must come into a booth, confess their sins to a man and call him Father, (Another violation of the Savior's request) they polluted God's relationship with man!<<

Lest we take hyperbole to a hyperstate, let's slow down; baby?--bathwater? ...and look at Writ:

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

I believe that Writ attests that one ought believe the principle of coextensiveness in the instance of the above texts, as does one believe the coestensiveness of -- the Great Commission.

Of course, one is assured that Jesus Christ is the ultimate arbiter of sins, as all judgement is given to Him; however the texts above say that there is another intermediate Operating System, of ecclesiastical endowment, another propriety, another protocol, ctrl+help... etc.

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9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

2 Kings 2:12 And Elisha saw [it], and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.

Did Elisha sin?--did Jesus Christ advocate contravening Writ? Of course not. Mebbe, the words of Jesus Christ re 'calling no man father' were more numinous than provided for here; I mean, perhaps, He spoke of things other than (now this is a freebie for spiritualizers) simple 'spiritual relationships'?

Seems that 2 Kings 2:12 especially argues for the term "father" when used in a spiritual relationship, as is that between one who 'confesses' and his or her 'father' or confessor.

Mebbe, the thought ought be taken all of a piece:

Matt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi (Rabi, Rav, Reb, Rebbi, Rebbe {teacher [spiritually -- master] --or other designation of respect}): for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Matt 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters (#2519 -- guide, master, teacher): for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Aren't we all about Doctor so and so, Doctor this and that? Hoo-ah! OUR Pastor is a DD, a Doctor of Divinity... Divinitatis Doctor!--to you, el schlubo. So, there...

Well, Doctor is Latinized 'teacher'. Mister Jones and Mistress Smith are variantions upon 'master'. Lest we who are thought without error, be found in greatest error.

[Gustave]

It is kind of a hijack seeing that there's already a thread going on about the trinity. Why bring it over here to the Dan./Rev./prophecy thread?

[jasd]

>>But if victory was assured to Him, Gustave, then it would all have been an act! Therefore, it must be that this victory could have been lost.<<

However we might think it -- act, farce, etc -- it remains that we are advised that Jesus Christ, in metaphoric language -- was slain, crucified -- from the foundation of the world -- that is, before even creation was begun and we were but nothing filaments of nothingness...

It is as though it were -- 'pre-cooked, just heat and eat'. It's already been cooked/done -- take your choice and eat it cold or heat it, but you have choice. That said,

I am also of a mind that things could have gone horribly wrong and Jesus Christ could have lost -- BIG time! I confess however, that I don't know the particulars.

Prophecy, for the greater part, is the run of a river in its fall to the sea. There are, however, the eddies, the off-flowing currents, and the still shallows -- wherein, lesser concerns are separated and mitigated. Herein is where I am convinced that

Gd takes time to ponder -- that is, PONDER (Qal stem = estimates) hearts -- indulging Himself a bit of unknowing -- that some hope of that which is serendipitous may be met..., and though the heart be as broken glass, it nonetheless, is heart -- and Gd pleases Himself to ponder it -- yours, mine, his, hers, theirs -- awaiting those yet unborn... This is where He is drawn and I think He - Gd - often weeps for how far awry matters have gone.

For this, I incline to Universalism, which would include even Satan and the fallen angels. Therein, is TRULY the test of Mercy!

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9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

>>What was that we just read, angels telling the Savior that He is worthy?<<

Angels?? Doesn't the text state that those who sung and exclaimed are those "redeemed -- out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"? Thems ain not angels, but multitudes of the redeemed post crucifixion, together with those resurrected with Jesus Christ -- who (at the least are twenty-four seemingly representative elders) are in heaven watching as the Redeemer takes the book as to break the seals -- prior to Parousia.

Angels... goes to 'soul-sleep', yes?

[cheddar]

God the Son incarnated or manifested into OUR FLESH...

...God became man WITHOUT ceasing to be God.

...Therefore the two Natures were NOT Blended, resulting in a hybridized demi god.

...Such as the pagans believed existed.

...Such as Perseus ( Clash of the Titans hero )

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=clash+of+...r:16,s:25,i:227

Scripture calls Christ 'that Holy Thing'....

...Which is accurate because He was fully man and God.

...In any event prophecy is clear Christ would provide Salvation.

...It was said over 100 times by the Prophets, Psalms and Books of Moses.

[jasd]

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'Consecrated' is an aspect of 'Holy'. One can hardly assert that Saint Mary was not consecrated. Oh, and holy is the Biblical term ascribed to the saints, which can hardly be stated that as a group -- Saint Mary was not an exemplary example...

[Guest DennisKean]

Dear Jasd,

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>>The Roman Catholic church corrupted the relationship of man and God by imposing itself between them, Gustave! That was the pollution of the now invisible Sanctuary. [...] That sanctuary, though conceptual, was invaded with the Sacrament of Reconciliation as man took over the duties of the Savior to dispense absolution instead of God's forgiveness. By telling people that they must come into a booth, confess their sins to a man and call him Father, (Another violation of the Savior's request) they polluted God's relationship with man!<<

Lest we take hyperbole to a hyperstate, let's slow down; baby?--bathwater? ...and look at Writ:

Jn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.

I believe that Writ attests that one ought believe the principle of coextensiveness in the instance of the above texts, as does one believe the coestensiveness of -- the Great Commission.

This is a trivial problem to solve my friend. John was a young man in those days. He did not understand this comment from the savior. So, let's see what the Savior really said in that very instance according to other witnesses who had more experience.

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47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

But you will protest to me that John was of sound mind and knew what He was talking about. I do not say that John was crazy. But he was young and was not too swift to understand deep things. In fact Peter asked the Savior about John, "What shall we do with him?", knowing that he was pretty much useless to them. That makes it obvious that John was not catching on like the rest and the disciples knew it clearly.

That is a fact, but here is evidence that John did not quite understand all things on par with the others!

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1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Only children could think this superficially. In fact he forgot what he said earlier.

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1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Am I crazy or is John changing his mind, suddenly!

So, John learned more as he grew up and the Savior in fact chose him to convey the Savior's messages in the book of Revelation. Which is very much like what God did with EGW. God can take the most incompetent individual and make him into a brilliant person. And John is the proof of that.

So, flaunting this silly verse before me, Jasd is rather ineffective. There is only one mediator between God and man.

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1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

You can't position your pope there. That office is a holy office reserved exclusively for the Savior. This is not up for debate, Jasd. So, for your church's view I am Anathema! But from our perspective, this violation is defined as an abomination. And that is not a hyperbole.

As regards your "coextensiveness", let's remember that your pope has called himself as god on earth, something which is considered to be blasphemy, as per the Bible. But they not only consider themselves as equal to God. They assert that they are above God and that they can tell God what to do! Wanna see it???

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....we find that in obedience to the words of His priests-HOC EST CORPUS MEUM [This is My Body]-God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes whenever they call Him, and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their Hands . . . they move Him as they please. . . Alphonsus de Liguori, Dignity and Duties of the Priests, p. 34-36

So, what are the chances that such pomposity has a correct interpretation of Scriptures, as they assure you that they have the right to absolve men of sin.

--FATHER--

Now, about the "Father" issue, Jasd. Please don't be coy about this. "Bless me father for I have sinned"??? Hein???

The idea is not to put faith and trust in people. That is especially applicable in the issues of sin, my friend. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." And that closes the door to calling others by a high and mighty title.

In fact from today on, I'm never calling another doctor by that title "doctor". I like that idea. There is only one doctor for me. I go to see doctors and inevitably they make me sicker, nearly every time. But when I pray, somehow the problems resolve themselves. If I see a doctor it is for a thorough checkup any more, to get tests done with my blood and discover what-ifs. Medication is something I avoid like death!

No more calling them Doctor for me! Mr. is good enough. Thanks for reminding me, Jasd! See, I knew there was something useful I could get from you! Now we are beginning to get along!

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

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Originally Posted By: Denniskean

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I like EGW, but the Bible is everything to me. EGW said herself that she is not infallible. All SDAs know that.

According to the SDA material I've read ( & I've read more than a little ) what I've found out is that....

...Ellen White is considered by SDA's to be the medium by which God confirmed what was turth or error.

...In matters of Faith and Morals, aka 'doctrine' for SDA's.

Ellen White, Gospel Works, page 302 & SM32.1

At that time one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines. We would search the Scriptures with much prayer, and the Holy Spirit would bring the truth to our minds. Sometimes whole nights would be devoted to searching the Scriptures and earnestly asking God for guidance. Companies of devoted men and women assembled for this purpose. The power of God would come upon ME, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error. As the points of our faith were thus established, our feet were placed upon a solid foundation. We accepted the truth point by point, under the demonstration of the Holy Spirit. I would be taken off in vision, and explanations would be given ME. I was given illustrations of heavenly things, and of the sanctuary, so that WE were placed where light was shining on us in clear, distinct rays.

So yes, I would agree that SDA's do not claim infallability for Ellen White - as far as her actual person is concerned...

...What they claim is that the truth communicated to Ellen by God that she promulgated to SDA's.

...Was / is infallible simply because the power of God came into her and gave her the ability to determine truth from error.

Thus if Ellen claimed that the such and such meant such and such....

...Then that's what it meant because it wasn't Ellen saying it.

...It was God saying via Ellen.

The final outcome however is identical to what Catholic's believe about the Magisterium of the Catholic Church...

...I.E. when the church makes an official teaching about Faith & Morals She is protected by God from Error.

...This does not mean that individual Catholic's can't or have not been evil.

...It just assures that "the teachings" are valid and vetted by God Himself.

I've collected scores of 'in-context' statements made by Ellen White that supports what I've said above...

...I'm not sure if you agree with me here so I'll simply let this rest unless you respond in the negative.

...If you exercise your right to.

This is a tiring argument but I will respond to you, because I was short with you before . Not all Adventists see things in that light. EGW herself said about herself to be a LESSER LIGHT. She was cognizant and humble about it most of the time. And she even speaks about being warned to NOT let pride blind her from her mission. Well, as a human being she had her moments, but much of her work is superlative with advanced ideas on many topics! Were all her views right on target?? She said that she is infallible.

It is very likely that some people will take some of her points more seriously than others. That is not evidence that all do so. There are fanatics in every denomination. There are misled people in all denominations. And there a good and balanced people in all faiths. She said...he said... is a tiring thing for all of us. I am worn out with that. I know that this woman has introduced me to the Bible and given me such an easy way in with her interpretation of the Bible that I will always be thankful to God for her contribution. Do I agree with everything she ever uttered. I do not and some will crucify me for this. But in every case I know more about EGW's views than the judges who censure me over this view or those who fear that if she was wrong in one point she was wrong in all.

All is not lost. The Bible is there. If I do not find support in the Bible for a POV it is suspect to me! As per her own instruction, I do not take EGW as an authority over the Bible. The pleasant thing is that she is very good with the Bible. I just love her freedom to cut to the point without politics but with simplicity. Nevertheless, the word of God is designed by God and that was done with astute insight. It overrides everything and everyone else's wisdom.

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Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

One point I would like to make is that comments like these can be poorly understood and easily mangled by those who do not want to understand but desire to see it in the wrong light.

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The power of God would come upon ME, and I was enabled clearly to define what is truth and what is error. As the points of our faith were thus established,

Some people claim that this implies everything she ever said and wrote. That is unrealistic and our critics exploit this to the max. Frankly I ignore folks who choose to wear black glasses. I think that you have more sense than that, from your post above... if I am correct.

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

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Part 2

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Originally Posted By: Kevindean

The idea presented here is that only the Savior could unseal the events of the future as inscribed in that scroll if He was victorious. But if victory was assured to Him, Gustave, then it would all have been an act! Therefore, it must be that this victory could have been lost. God took a chance! Now we know that He would be fair in judgement unto death! And as He was led to the cross, being nailed to it, in stark contrast to someone lesser, He cries out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do..." In the fiercest hour He is still thinking about fairness and justice. Man this is the God I want for me in Judgement! This is the God I can love

No, the idea was that the Savior WOULD unseal the events...

...However not all would know this & that was why Jesus commanded.

...The Gospel to be preached unto "ALL" Nations, languages.

No, Gustave, I beg to differ with you... this verse should suffice!

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Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

And don't pull this sort of reinterpretations with me. I find it upsetting when folks pull something from their sleeve dogmatically. You have no valid reason to support your fictitious point, unless you are talking predestination. I happen not to accept predestination.

[Gustave]

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself.

If Christ was fully God and man then some type of blending had to take place.

[Gustave]

This is a tiring argument but I will respond to you, because I was short with you before . Not all Adventists see things in that light. EGW herself said about herself to be a LESSER LIGHT. She was cognizant and humble about it most of the time. And she even speaks about being warned to NOT let pride blind her from her mission. Well, as a human being she had her moments, but much of her work is superlative with advanced ideas on many topics! Were all her views right on target?? She said that she is infallible.

[Gustave]

No, Gustave, I beg to differ with you... this verse should suffice!

[cheddar]

What you just said is a perfect example of why I'm here...

...I would be an eye-opener for you if you would only walk up to a Baptist Pastor.

...And say what you just did - for that matter ANY Pastor of ANY protestant church.

No Cheddar, no 'blending' or mixture of the Natures....

...That's why 'we' say FULLY God & FULLY man.

That’s what I said in my first post – Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man.

And what I usually find is that most focus on Christ’s divinity and neglect his humanity. They never come to the point where they see Jesus as fully having the fallen or sinful nature of Adam.

They always lift Jesus up above the filth and sin of the world like he was immune to it and there was no struggle. Even a casual reading of the gospels shows that this is not true. Jesus felt real pain and struggled with real anger and had to wrestle with real lust. I’m pretty sure that those Jewish women were lookin good back in the day and he had to deal with those temptations.

Catholics have invented a whole host of fallacies to get around the sinful nature of Christ. Starting with the sinless conception of Mary and her sinless life which of course leads to Jesus’ sinless nature and life. Now Jesus did lead a sinless life but he did it in the fallen nature of Adam.

John is pretty clear that anyone who confesses that Jesus is not come in the flesh has the spirit of the anti-Christ (1John 4:3). Pretty strong words.

[Aliensanctuary]

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Wouldn't it be nice if we could find other prophets who could help us resolve some dilemmas or fill in more details?

It seems that Psalms, and Isaiah through Malachi, but for a few exceptions, contain a number of references to End Times Events. These prophecies may or may not fall within mainstream SDA beliefs.

For example, the SDA denomination does not believe there will ever again be a Temple of the Lord on the Earth, but Ezekiel describes one in detail. This particular temple I do not believe is man made, but comes from the stars, just as the New Jerusalem city will.

Prophecies, as in dreams and visions, are messages sent to Earth by a being/beings from the future. These messages are to teach and warn us so that we can prepare for what lies ahead.

[Guest DennisKean]

Gustave,

Ha ha ha... I was working day and night this week and on the first pass I completely misunderstood your portent here. And I botched up all my replies to Kevin.

But I see what you are saying here, now. Let me reply to that...

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Daniel 2,44

And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall NEVER be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER

Might stand for ever Daniel should-a said....

...Because according to James & Ellen White.

...Jesus could have sinned and the world would have been a write - off.

You believe that if God said it, there was no risk or possibility of failure! Yes, that is true if God never gives up His power. With power God is perfectly capable to achieve His goals.

But we know that He did give it up when He came to visit us. During His stay with us, the Savior gave up His power to help Himself. "Why don't you make these stones into bread and eat?" Remember that???

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Zec_4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The issues with sin could never have been solved if the Character of God was not tested UNTO DEATH!

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Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Mat_26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Mar_14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

No one but God could do this task because Lucifer asserted that his imperfection was inherited, a lame excuse, but a serious charge. God can accomplish anything He sets His heart to accomplish. But He needs His power to guarantee the outcome. And, as the Bible tells us, He received His power back, expressly, because He was victorious. Can you see that???

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Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

But if He fails on the character point it is the end of the loyalty of God's creatures to Him. So, there was no way around this. Many people worship God because of His power and might. But God does not seek for that worship. God seeks the love of the creature, not the fear of the power. So, there was no way around this conundrum.

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Mat_26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So, why else was the Savior so sorrowful and afraid, if there was no danger or if He was sure that everything will work out just as He planned? This is not a hard question. There is no other answer. He knew that He could fail! To assert otherwise is to wreck the most heroic act and the greatest love of the God we have. It is to uproot the deepest connection to a God who gave all to save not only man, but innumerable worlds which all would have been affected by the dissolution of God's government. God Took a Risk, Gustave! He was victorious because His love for us was genuine.

So, Gustave, if all had been honky dory and God never gave up his power to be tested, all His prophecies could have been accomplished according to His plans, but sin could not have been eradicated. Why? Because in order to judge Lucifer and the fallen, God needed to answer the charge to be found worthy of the power which He wields. And to be found worthy His character needed to be tested. He passed the test and was found worthy... Worthy of what?

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Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If this was not the issue at play which put God at risk, a God of power to be looked upon as "Are you a worthy God" would have been blasphemous. Imagine Zeus being asked this? TOAST, black on both sides!

But the God we love found it not unworthy to be made a man. The reason is that He made us in His likeness and perfect enough to give and receive His love. Outside of all hyperbole and intellectual vigor, the love of God is our refuge. And this is the God to whom EGW introduced me to, Gustave. Flawed as she was, she managed to pen down a God of superlative love, one whom all creatures can love once they understand how far he would go to save his creatures. God took a risk with His own life to save others!

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Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

Why??? Because he had poured out his soul unto death! He was tested until He died and He never put His hand on the handle of power, in spite of the fear of never returning to His Father!

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Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

And in the deepest agony as the mind became a blur and despair ravages the soul, He cries out.

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Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

A lesser individual would have said, "To hell with these rats, get me out of this place! Enough of this..."

But love was the only way to restore our world and the universe. And God the Almighty died!

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Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Awesome reality...

Dennis

[Gerr]

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So, can you understand why I cannot accept that God has no real control. And as far as the idea that God know the end from the beginning, how could that ever be possible since God would know for sure when this and that would occur.

But to compound the problem, I do not believe that God has a crystal ball. And here is why. "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"

God makes plans for the future and He guarantees them. So, my dear SDABC scholars simply cannot evict God's prophecies as they have done. It is a tragedy that they rationalize such a solution as this. I struggled with that "Could have been accomplished" idea in my youth, some 45 years ago and it took a superhuman effort for me to see that it was just a human concoction.

Until you recognize that there are conditional & unconditional prophecies, you will have problems.

ESV Je 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

[Gerr]

The SDABC is looking at this from the perspective of protecting Ellen White's status as a prophet...

...Therefore Ellen's anti-Trinitarian views are built-in to SDA theology.

...You can't have fulfillment in the prophecy of Daniel & at the same time have SDA rubrics be true.

...Let the Scriptures be broken before Ellen White be shown false.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-

White, E. G. (1946; 2002). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, EGW MS 271/2 1900

E5V Jer 18:5-10 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Je 18:5–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Guest DennisKean]

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However we might think it -- act, farce, etc -- it remains that we are advised that Jesus Christ, in metaphoric language -- was slain, crucified -- from the foundation of the world -- that is, before even creation was begun and we were but nothing filaments of nothingness...

It is as though it were -- 'pre-cooked, just heat and eat'. It's already been cooked/done -- take your choice and eat it cold or heat it, but you have choice. That said,

Jasd,

There is no mystery, here. Jasd. You mistify it too much. "From the foundation of the world" means that God designed the plan of salvation before we were created, in case that sin should occur! Well, if Lucifer had not sinned, it still would have been a plan just in case, but it would not have been executed. So, your PRE-COOKED idea does not quite say it right. You spin INEVITABILITY into it and that is not part of this equation. If inevitability was built into God's creation, then God could not assert that He made man and Lucifer perfect. But that is what He said. And that means that Lucifer invented sin on his own! Lucifer would love you if you could spin inevitability into this, Jasd. Because inevitability implies that he cannot be judged! Then it is God's fault!

See how that works, my friend??? Got to be careful how you construct your argument, because the tower of cubes falls down if you mess with the bottom pieces.

--NEXT POINT--

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I am also of a mind that things could have gone horribly wrong and Jesus Christ could have lost -- BIG time! I confess however, that I don't know the particulars.

Prophecy, for the greater part, is the run of a river in its fall to the sea. There are, however, the eddies, the off-flowing currents, and the still shallows -- wherein, lesser concerns are separated and mitigated. Herein is where I am convinced that

Yes Indeed, but the Eddies are dealt with in the very manner that the angel who contacted Daniel in his chapter 9 told Daniel that the king of Persia delayed him. The fall of Babylon was orchestrated so that its history could portray future events and give people a sense of what God intends to do in these our days. So if you are of this mind, we agree. God interacts with humanity. He has a flock here and He watches over His flock. And Lucifer tries to wreck things, so God keeps His people safe, though God performs His interactions fairly, while keeping Lucifer in check from wrecking society altogether. That is the complex of righteousness and responsibility.

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Gd takes time to ponder -- that is, PONDER (Qal stem = estimates) hearts -- indulging Himself a bit of unknowing -- that some hope of that which is serendipitous may be met..., and though the heart be as broken glass, it nonetheless, is heart -- and Gd pleases Himself to ponder it -- yours, mine, his, hers, theirs -- awaiting those yet unborn... This is where He is drawn and I think He - Gd - often weeps for how far awry matters have gone.

For this, I incline to Universalism, which would include even Satan and the fallen angels. Therein, is TRULY the test of Mercy!

Indulging Himself a bit of unknowing? My dear friend, this idea about God knowing all from an internal perspective is an insidious lust and trust in power by many of us. To propose that God sees the future through a crystal ball is to deny His omnipotence. Can you see that? We lust for and embrace power as our real safety, instead of the loving God. Insecurity makes many imagine that if God does not know the future then we are doomed! And in reality the opposite is true. But if He knows the future then of what use is omnipotence? You can't do anything about it, "Que sera sera"! But you might say God can know the future and change it! That means that He did not know the future to begin with! See, there is a problem there.

There is a conflict between knowing all and omnipotence. And the conflict is that knowledge of the future is inconsistent with logic as follows. God claims to know the end from the beginning because He is a great Shepherd who knows that next week He will bring His sheep to that other field and have them graze on a fresh field with other types of grasses. Insecurity, however demands from us to believe in the crystal ball, not realizing that Omnipotence is all that is needed. In fact knowing the future prevents God from interacting with us in real time. But that requires some thinking and pondering. Real love cannot coexist with knowledge of the future, because God then knows ahead of time and He is nothing more than an observer unable to use His power to change our outcome without violating our will or change the outcome. But if He changes things like that, then why is Lucifer in a rebellion? In our impoverished eyes and angst for salvation we seek to find shelter and we wrongly grasp the handle of power, not realizing its catastrophic consequence. Loving God because of His mighty powers is the wrong handle to grasp to gain security. In this blindness we disregard reason and make God out to be this totally illogical mythical imagination to assure ourselves that with this guy we are safe because of might.

To the chock of my new peers on this forum I will state it boldly. God does not need to see the future. It is of no use to Him. Knowing the future would wreck His highest and noblest character of love and our God would be only a shell of what the Bible presents Him to be. And you touched on that point Jasd, you astute rascal.

You see, mentioning the idea which the Bible verse "God searches the heart" implies you realized that such an endeavor is inconsistent with God knowing everything. But you are a fox and though you know that these ideas conflict, you tried to rationalize it. But I mean that in a nice way, Jasd. We all do this when we are conflicted.

The question is this. Is God a peeping Tom? Never thought of that? Can God read the mind like we read a book? I believe that God chooses to give us privacy within our mind. God can see what we think by what we choose to do. So He arranges for circumstances to meet us and thus He tests us. That way God tests the hearts, which is different from reading the mind.

Remember when God met Abraham on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah??? What did He say to Abraham?

Quote:

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

What? God investigating? Something is wrong with that picture! Right? Actually, No! God is not an invader obsessed with total control. When God give you freedom of will He means it! But it is up to you to invite Him close to you.

Furthermore, if God knows the future, then He is responsible for introducing the greatest evil into this universe and thereby is found to be less than righteous. He could have prevented Lucifer's creation, you see? Flush that bad egg, man! But that was not done...Why???

But some will assert that evil is inevitable, therefore God allowed it to be Lucifer. But if evil is inevitable, then it was irresponsible to create man. Can you see it? Free will is what makes sin possible. Preventing evil means loss of freedom. But the future of the universe is dependent on free will, so sin MUST be possible because it is the test of freedom. It is the only way that true free will can be realized.

The reason that we make up these fictitious ideas to misrepresent God is because of our fears and lust for power to solve problems. And God, the almighty God instead of relying on Power to solve problems forsook power and expressed the one wonderful thing which we all need so dearly--Love! Love, rather than power saved us.

Of course, I am now in hot water for saying all this, I can just see the polemics. But I have less fear since I realized these things. But thank you for that snippet you conveyed, Jasd. It is time for Christians to start reasoning things out. God has positioned Himself in a delicate and astutely thought out place to be a God of love rather than a dictator of worlds!

So, there is no use for God to know the future. I strongly recommend the book "The Openness Of God" to you. It is an excellent book written by Richard Rice. That man was way ahead of his time in this view, though he may not touch on some of the other points I made. But you seem like a well read fellow and you might like it.

--UNIVERSALISM--

I am not going to wrangle you over that. I do not embrace it. Others can deal with that and I'm sure you have gone over it before. But I would like to know if you are a real Universalist. Last post I thought you were an RC?

Dennis

[Guest]

"From the foundation of the world" means that God designed the plan of salvation before we were created, in case that sin should occur! Well, if Lucifer had not sinned, it still would have been a plan just in case, but it would not have been executed. So, your PRE-COOKED idea does not quite say it right. You spin INEVITABILITY into it and that is not part of this equation. If inevitability was built into God's creation, then God could not assert that He made man and Lucifer perfect. But that is what He said. And that means that Lucifer invented sin on his own! Lucifer would love you if you could spin inevitability into this, Jasd. Because inevitability implies that he cannot be judged! Then it is God's fault!

Well said, and spot on.

[Gustave]

You believe that if God said it, there was no risk or possibility of failure! Yes, that is true if God never gives up His power. With power God is perfectly capable to achieve His goals. But we know that He did give it up when He came to visit us. During His stay with us, the Savior gave up His power to help Himself. "Why don't you make these stones into bread and eat?" Remember that???

[Guest DennisKean]

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Originally Posted By:

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Dennis Kean

No, Gustave, I beg to differ with you... this verse should suffice!

Rev 5,3

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon

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Originally Posted By: Kevindean

And don't pull this sort of reinterpretations with me. I find it upsetting when folks pull something from their sleeve dogmatically. You have no valid reason to support your fictitious point, unless you are talking predestination. I happen not to accept predestination

Christ was the ONLY person born that was DESTINED or PREDESTINED TO DIE...

...This is / was the point of the two main threads I started on this forum.

Obviously I would not agree with Calvin's frozen chosen theology....

...Because we are at liberty to choose to co-operate with God's Grace or not.

...God is not at liberty to not be God - God is the one Constant.

The Savior being the active Creator was charged with the suspicions against His character and that is how the Great Controversy took place. So He was not PREDESTINED. He was charged and He answered His charges by demonstrations of His character.

This is nothing which the word predestination conveys. In fact it hides the reality of the Great Controversy. With your perceptions the reasons for the Savior's death are shrouded in mystery. It becomes impossible to show the reason for why all this is happening. But the Bible is full of explanations of why. God is intent to help us understand why this is going on! Read this and see how God is willing to expound on the whys and wherefores.

The prophet starts out by asking God why He allows the evil to go on. He asks why God allows the wicked to prosper. It troubles him so much and he cannot grasp it. But the reason is that Habakkuk at this time does not know about the Great Controversy.

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Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Hab 1:14 And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?

Hab 1:15 They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.

Hab 1:16 Therefore they sacrifice unto their net, and burn incense unto their drag; because by them their portion is fat, and their meat plenteous.

Hab 1:17 Shall they therefore empty their net, and not spare continually to slay the nations?

Hab 2:1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

And we can see that God is happy to explain it to him, as He starts from the beginning. (And people thought that Habbakkuk was not so useful...ha ha ha.)

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Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Hab 2:6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!

Hab 2:7 Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?

Hab 2:8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.

Hab 2:9 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

Hab 2:10 Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul.

Hab 2:11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Hab 2:12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and stablisheth a city by iniquity!

Hab 2:13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?

And there we have it. Now the prophet realizes that there is a Great controversy involving this one evil individual. This conflict between God and this individual (Lucifer) is given as rationale why evil is in our world.

No shrouding of issues, like "Jesus was predestined to die", "It was a requirement and we are not privy to know why" God is intent on us finding out the tiniest question and rationale for the state of our world, the plan of Salvation, the future of our world and everything we can ask Him about. The Bible is so thorough that it is astounding. You just have to read it.

Yet, you have expressed to me that all we need to know is this and that for Salvation. Not so, Gustave. The details are where faith is founded. Knowing the details gives us a vision of God's character and His plans for our future. It is there to comfort us. And if you read this whole prophecy you will realize that Habbakkuk was comforted by it. We need the details, Gustave.

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

You are the one guy I give priority to. Sorry, guys, but Marcos makes a great effort at reasoning. I just like folks who think in real time and fight for clarity rather than obfuscation.

So, shoot, Marcos,

Dennis

[Gustave]

The Savior being the active Creator was charged with the suspicions against His character and that is how the Great Controversy took place. So He was not PREDESTINED. He was charged and He answered His charges by demonstrations of His character.

[Woody]

Thanks Gustave - yes ... we as SDAs most certainly DO believe in 'predestination'. Thanks for the texts. And wonderful texts they are.