It must have been God's will ... NOT!

[JoeMo]

I have been a Christian most of my life. I have had several tragedies in my life - particularly my sister going from an Olympic class athlete to a quadriplegic in one second and my oldest son dying suddenly and unexpectedly - where it was hard to see God's presence. It was especially difficult for people to tell me "it must have been God's will" or "God must have a reason for doing this". I don't believe these things were God's doing or God's will. How could a loving Father do this kind of garbage? It's equivalent to child abuse; and I refuse to believe either of these events were God's doing - Satan does this kind of stuff to destroy our faith and our lives. In fact, it was during these events that God spoke His comfort and blessing to me more clearly than at any other point in my life. He preserved my faith.

That being said, I'm sure some of you have had similar experiences. How did you deal with it and stay a believer? Do any of you think these tragedies are God's will or His punishment for our (or their) sins?

[CoAspen]

"Gods Will", has always been a troubling statement to me. Maybe it is the definition? How are you defining it? i see this as an important question.

Carry on.

[phkrause]

I for one agree 100% that God does not do these tragedies. He does allow them. Reading the book of Job confirms that very well. The Bible also says that he will never allow anything to happen to us that we can't handle.

[JoeMo]

As we speak, the NW part of Colo Springs is on fire. the SW part of Boulder is in danger of burning. Over half a BILLION dollars of high-end homes are businesses are either burning or in danger of burning. I refuse to believe that God is responsible. Yet, in spite of millions of prayers going up to God , this is happening. I know it is not the case, but it feels like the end of the world is here. Everywhere I look to the west, there is nothing but gigantic plumes of smoke rising to the sky. Burning embers the size of golf balls are raining down from the sky miles from the fires. God isn't doing this; Satan is doing this.

CoAspen - where are you? can you see the devastation?

I believe it is Sin (with a capital S) that is causing this. What do you think?

[cricket]

The Bible also says that he will never allow anything to happen to us that we can't handle.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

I define God's will as something that God causes to happen. That is different from something God allows to happen out of respect for man's free will. In fact, there is talk that the fire around the Springs was deliberately set. Sometimes, tragedies in our lives are not the result of God's will, but the consequences of someone exercising his free will to do something stupid or evil.

[skyblue888]

JoeMo, I am sorry about your losses. I agree with what you said. I am sure you are familiar with those statements that really stand out from the book The Great Controversy concerning this issue, like the ones on pages 517,589,590.

sky

[CoAspen]

Only seeing the devastation on TV, thankfully. Live in the SW metro area of Denver.

God wills that any should die or suffer, not in my mind, otherwise why the plane of salvation. Does He step in to stop events, not often apparently. Life goes on with its everyday happenings and causes. But I have come to believe that the emphasis on 'learning' has been wrongly interpreted also. What we learn, is to trust in God that the end of it all is positive when we accept him and the price paid for us by Christ. God desires no evil for anyone and utterly hate it when people say, "it's Gods will"!! Christ came to change that perception in the past and it amazingly persists even today.

[skyblue888]

"The power and malice of Satan and his host might justly alarm us were it not that we may find shelter and deliverance in the superior power of our Redeemer. We carefully secure our houses with bolts and locks to protect our property and our lives from evil men; but we seldom think of the evil angels who are constantly seeking access to us, and against whose attacks we have, in our own strength, no method of defense. If permitted, they can distract our minds, disorder and torment our bodies, destroy our possessions and our lives. Their only delight is in misery and destruction. Fearful is the condition of those who resist the divine claims and yield to Satan's temptations, until God gives them up to the control of evil spirits. But those who follow Christ are ever safe under His watchcare. Angels that excel in strength are sent from heaven to protect them. The wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people." G.C.517

[skyblue888]

"Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. Ibid.

[skyblue888]

We hear a lot about global warming. The scientists can't agree as to what is causing it. It should be no mystery to the people of God. Because iniquity abounds the Spirit of the Lord is progressively withdrawing from the earth.

"Everything in the world is in agitation. The signs of the times are ominous. Coming events cast their shadows before. The Spirit of God is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. There are tempests, earthquakes, fires, floods, murders of every grade. Who can read the future? Where is security? There is assurance in nothing that is human or earthly. Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen. Restlessly are they waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are waiting and watching and working for our Lord's appearing. Another class are falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. Few believe with heart and soul that we have a hell to shun and a heaven to win." Desire of Ages,636.

A heaven to win!

"When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the souls makes progress... from strengh to strength, from victory to victory," for "The merits of Christ blot out transgressions, and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven." Faith & Works,94; Evangelism.186.

And "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." Faith & Works,27.

It accomplishes everything because it is "made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." (T.M.92)

sky

[JoeMo]

Sky,

Thanks for the EGW quotes. I can't seem to find anything in scripure that backs up her statements that the Holy Spirit is being withdrawn from the planet. Furthermore, I can't find anything in scripture that says the Holy Spirit withdraws from us personally - we withdraw from the Holy Spirit. Same consequence - different dynamic.

If anything, it seems to me that God pours out His spirit in sort of a "second pentecost" in the last days. As stated by both Peter and Joel:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:27-32; Acts 2:16-21)

With all due respect, I am a "bible only" kind of guy. EGW's

infallibility is a construct of the White Estate and the SDA Church, who named her a "prophet" postumously. While I respect her personally and appreciate her counsel, I don't respect what the chuch had made her - our own little "Pope".

I prayed about the situation last night; and God invited me to look at the positive things He is doing rather than the things He is not doing. He asked me to remember the unexplainable miracles He has given me the privilege to witness. He asked me to remember His clear voice of consolation after my sister's accident and after my son's death. He asked me to imagine how much worse these fires would be if He had given Satan full reign. His pleadings with me did not sound like the Spirit being withdrawn - it felt more like His Spirit being increased. God is indeed good; and seemed to be in a pretty good mood - all things considered. He calmed my soul and gave me trouble-free rest.

[doug yowell]

Sky,

Thanks for the EGW quotes. I can't seem to find anything in scripure that backs up her statements that the Holy Spirit is being withdrawn from the planet. Furthermore, I can't find anything in scripture that says the Holy Spirit withdraws from us personally - we withdraw from the Holy Spirit. Same consequence - different dynamic.

With all due respect, I am a "bible only" kind of guy.

Try looking into Bible only: I Sam.16:14 Ps.51:10,11 Ez.11:23 Eph.4:30 II Thes.2:6-8

[skyblue888]

Mrs. White stated what she did based on passages of Scripture such as Doug just quoted. It is all over her writings.

sky

[skyblue888]

With all due respect, I am a "bible only" kind of guy. EGW's

infallibility is a construct of the White Estate and the SDA Church, who named her a "prophet" postumously. While I respect her personally and appreciate her counsel, I don't respect what the chuch had made her - our own little "Pope".

JoeMo

_________

Are you suggesting that I am not a "bible only" kind of guy!!!

If you saw the Bibles I have had over the years and the one I have now, there is no way you could even begin to suggest such a thing. All of my Bibles, English or French, are marked all over and underlined with cross-references just about everywhere just as much as with Mrs. White's writings.

Mrs. White is not a "pope" in the way you are suggesting. The "church" does not even follow the counsels as found in the Testimonies. So how could it be said that they have made her a "pope"!!!

Mrs. White herself stated that the testimonies have been made of none effect by a church that has become so much like the world that no difference can be seen.

Mrs. White is not my "pope"... The Holy Spirit is the Teacher of His people and He speaks through the Word and the Testimonies.

Mrs. White was simply a humble instrument.

sky

[JoeMo]

Sky,

NO! I am not suggesting anything like that! I'm REALLY sorry if I offended you - no offense was ever intended. It's obvious that you are a diligent student of the Word and the SoP. I was merely communicating that I am not an avid student (or even a big fan) of the SoP. I have the utmost respect for your scholarship and communication style. I hope I have shown that respect in previous posts. If I have not, my apologies, my friend! Please forgive me.

Doug,

"Try looking into Bible only: I Sam.16:14 Ps.51:10,11 Ez.11:23 Eph.4:30 II Thes.2:6-8"

Thanks for the scripture verses. As far as the OT verses go, I agree - God did withdraw His Holy Spirit. However, in the OT, the Holy Spirit (aka "Comforter" or "Counsellor") had not been given to the church at large; it was only given after Christ's ascention into heaven. As far as Eph 4:30 goes, I think you make a good point; but is "grieving the Holy Spirit" equivalent to God withdrawing His Spirit, or equivalent to us "kicking Him out"? Same consequence - different dynamic. Concerning the quote from 2 Thessalonians, call me dense - but I didn't see the connection.

May I point to the last thing Jesus said to His apostles before he was taken up to heaven?

"lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matt. 28:20)

When I read these words and couple them with Jesus' promise of sending us the Comforter, I can't help but think He is talking about His Spirit when He says He will be with us until the end of the world.

Be that as it may, my purpose for this thread is not to spur a theological debate about the SoP or the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit. Although I must say it may legitimately start a discussion about the time of trouble or the end of probation. I was just so moved about the fires here in CO and previous tragedies in my life that I was wondering about why God would allow these horrible things to happen. I didn't mean to get off on the theological "rabbit trail" - there are plenty of other topics on this forum where we can do that.

Be blessed,

JoeMo

[skyblue888]

Sky,

NO! I am not suggesting anything like that! I'm REALLY sorry if I offended you - no offense was ever intended. It's obvious that you are a diligent student of the Word and the SoP. I was merely communicating that I am not an avid student (or even a big fan) of the SoP. I have the utmost respect for your scholarship and communication style. I hope I have shown that respect in previous posts. If I have not, my apologies, my friend! Please forgive me.

JoeMo

_______

Thanks JoeMo. No, I was not offended in the least and you have not shown any disrespect and I hope I have not either. If you go back to my previous post you will notice that I had put a smilie at the end of my first sentence.

sky

________

Doug,

"Try looking into Bible only: I Sam.16:14 Ps.51:10,11 Ez.11:23 Eph.4:30 II Thes.2:6-8"

Thanks for the scripture verses. As far as the OT verses go, I agree - God did withdraw His Holy Spirit. However, in the OT, the Holy Spirit (aka "Comforter" or "Counsellor") had not been given to the church at large; it was only given after Christ's ascention into heaven.

JoeMo

_______

Joe, if i may butt in, you are saying that In OT the Holy Spirit had not been given to the church at large, that it was only given after Christ's ascension into heaven. While this may be true, I do not believe this is the meaning intended.

You must be stating this based on John 7:39 which says, "But He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

This is the difference between giving our own private opinion and God's own opinion especially regarding difficult passages such as this one. In the book Acts of the Apostles, p.37, is a commentary that sheds much light on this. Here it is:

"During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in marked manner, but never in its fullness. Now, (Pentecost), in obedience to the word of the Saviour, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in Heaven Christ added His intercession. He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that he might pour it upon His people... The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart."

This, I believe, is the true meaning of John 7:39.

See why we have every reason to appreciate the SoP?

This is just one example, of course.

sky

It is not so much that the Holy Spirit had not been given to the church at large but that He had not been given in its fullness before.

[JoeMo]

Whew! You are one of the last guys I want to offend (Not that I WANT to offend anyone). Your stuff is always well thought out (whether or not I agree with you).

Concerning your post above - yeah, the Holy Spirit is a difficult subject, because, as the scripture says:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13)

Concerning EGW, yes, I find her a useful reference; but I have known too many SDA's that put her writings on par with Scripture (no reflection on you); and I just can't go there - I find too much of her stuff that just didn't or won't happen. (e.g., people alive in her era being alive at Christ's second coming).

[M. T. Cross]

Joe, first let me pass on my condolances for the tragedies in your life and my admiration for your ability to make it throught them. It shows a strength of character that is stunning.

I agree that your God is not responsible! I think the whole "it must be Gods will" is a coping mechanism. But I think the idea of the devil doing it is as well. Sadly sometimes tragic things just happen. Possibly for no reason that we can fathom at all. However I think it can be a spiritual excersize for each of us to lean on our fair - whatever it may be - to get us through troubling and potentially devastating experiences.

It breaks my heart to hear about the fires in Colorado! I hope you are all safe.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Sky,

Thanks for the EGW quotes. I can't seem to find anything in scripure that backs up her statements that the Holy Spirit is being withdrawn from the planet. Furthermore, I can't find anything in scripture that says the Holy Spirit withdraws from us personally - we withdraw from the Holy Spirit. Same consequence - different dynamic.

With all due respect, I am a "bible only" kind of guy.

Try looking into Bible only: I Sam.16:14 Ps.51:10,11 Ez.11:23 Eph.4:30 II Thes.2:6-8

To JoeMoe,

I would just add, but watch, as soon as the 144,000 are sealed, it appears the winds are turned loose if you don't want EGW.

Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Re 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I'm wondering JoeMoe if it isn't already beginning, so many calamities too numerous to mention are falling on mankind.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

I would just add, but watch, as soon as the 144,000 are sealed, it appears the winds are turned loose if you don't want EGW.

Gibs

______

Gibs, I hope you dont mean that they are sealed before the loud cry because the people designated as the 144,000 will not exist until after the great final test.

sky

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I agree - I think that some winds are already being turned loose. Another breeze - ObamaCare was upheld by the Supreme Court. Come, Lord Jesus!

One small miracle - God intervened in the fires here in Colorado on Wednesday - sending a suprise rainstorm and winds that blew the major fire in the Springs back on itself. Now THAT is God's will! Tuesday night, satan used nature to burn down over $100 Million in homes - the jerk! Fires aren't out yet; but well on their way to containment. Thanks for your prayers, everyone - you just participated in a miracle! God is good!

[CoAspen]

If we are going to Give God credit for all the good, then it would naturaly fall that Satan is responible for all the bad....yes? Then humans have no resposnaibiities! Natural events are not natural but caused by God or Satan...yes?

The weather patterns are such that at this time of year in CO moisture is hit or miss. There was already stream of moisture, limited at best, moving over Co before the Waldo Canyon fire went out of control. So did Satan send the winds and then after all the people were evacuated and their homes burned, God sent some rain? Hmmmm...not so sure I could buy into a God like that!

This whole thing about "Gods Will" gets complicated!!! To often humans don't take responsibility for their actions or look at events as a natural course....regardless if it's good or bad!

...my 2-cents...

[Gibs]

I would just add, but watch, as soon as the 144,000 are sealed, it appears the winds are turned loose if you don't want EGW.

Gibs

______

Gibs, I hope you dont mean that they are sealed before the loud cry because the people designated as the 144,000 will not exist until after the great final test.

sky

It might be more advanced than we are seeing. Sky I'm hearing at least 2 on Shortwave that travel the world and preach where they can be heard from shortwave and Satellite and so reach a lot of the listening world. We in America are not much with SW radio but some countries people gather round them to hear these kind of messages, the TRUE gospel, THE TRUE Salvation message like I've never heard it before and one can know by the power of the Holy Spirit. Sky I haven't caught their names but no fault is found in their messages.

What I am wondering is if some are already sealed and it is starting and I listening intently.

EGW had so much to say on this subject I am reading more, more and more. Some don't like her first writings but for me when from God there is no difference and also for me I see no difference. This one is from Early Writings, and note when she says "I saw" or "I was shown" we better sit up and pay attention.

"I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven, descending to the earth, and again ascending to heaven, preparing for the fulfillment of some important event. Then I saw another mighty angel commissioned to descend to the earth, to unite his voice with the third angel, and give power and force to his message. Great power and glory were imparted to the angel, and as he descended, the earth was lightened with his glory. The light which attended this angel penetrated everywhere, as he cried mightily, with a strong voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." The message of the fall of Babylon, as given by the second angel, is repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the churches since 1844. The work of this angel comes in at the right time to join in the last great work of the third angel's message as it swells to a loud cry. And the people of God are thus prepared to stand in the hour of temptation, which they are soon to meet. I saw a great light resting upon them, and they united to fearlessly proclaim the third angel's message. {EW 277.1}

Angels were sent to aid the mighty angel from heaven, and I heard voices which seemed to sound everywhere, "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." This message seemed to be an addition to the third message, joining it as the midnight cry joined the second angel's message in 1844. The glory of God rested upon the patient, waiting saints, and they fearlessly gave the last solemn warning, proclaiming the fall of Babylon and calling upon God's people to come out of her that they might escape her fearful doom. {EW 277.2}

The final test?

" The work of the Holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul. Any person who looks to Christ in simple, childlike faith is made a partaker of the divine nature through the agency of the Holy Spirit. When led by the Spirit of God, Christians may know that they are made complete in Him who is the head of all things. As Christ was glorified on the day of Pentecost, so will He again be glorified in the closing work of the gospel, when He shall prepare a people to stand the final test in the closing conflict of the great controversy. . . . {CTr 365.4}

The people of God are to be called out from their association with worldlings and evildoers to stand in the battle for the Lord against the powers of darkness. When the earth is lightened with the glory of God, we shall see a work similar to that which was wrought when the disciples, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaimed the power of a risen Saviour. [After] the light of heaven penetrated the darkened minds of those who had been deceived by the enemies of Christ, the false representation of Him was rejected, for through the efficiency of the Holy Spirit they now saw Him exalted to be a Prince and Saviour, to give repentance unto Israel, and remission of sins.—Manuscript 143, 1901. {CTr 365.5}

Sky I see we are there and I look for a rapid increase in the power of God in this last call.

Look around and notice the awakening call and are we not caught up in it? I think we are and what a Blessing!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

It seems we have a bit of wondering off topic here....