It must have been God's will ... NOT!

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Your posts are making more and more sense to me ... That kinda scares me (just kidding !)

Sky,

I agree with you - God's will is complicated and confusing sometimes. I have no idea why He answers some prayers and not others; or why He sometimes seems to wait for things to happen.

Nonetheless, I trust Him explicitly to do what is best for His people. Who knows - maybe He's telling "you're setting the bar too low. Just watch - I'm gonna do something that will blow your mind !

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

CoAspen,

This topic "God's Will" is such a wide topic it can go off in many reach out discusions. But it is one that needs a good looking into on many facets and it gets "hot" on the salvation issue. Just a couple from EGW, these are just a pick of one or two paragraphs of each discussion she put forth,

"We are living in a land of bondage and of death. Multitudes are enslaved by sinful customs and evil habits, and their fetters are difficult to break. Iniquity, like a flood, is deluging the earth. Crimes almost too fearful to be even mentioned are of daily occurrence. Shall we say that all this is because men live in obedience to the will of God, or is it because ministers and people hold and teach that its precepts have no binding force? {TMK 294.5}

"God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son" that the lost might be reclaimed. . . . He who has tasted and found that the Lord is good cannot bear the thought of following in the path of transgression. It is pain to him to violate the law of that God who has so loved him". {TMK 294.6}

"As intelligent creatures we may know and do the will of God, or we may stubbornly refuse to submit our finite will to the will of the Infinite. This responsibility that is placed upon us should fill us with a sense of awe. The requirement of God to us is, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." On these two principles hang all the law and the prophets; and it is for our present and eternal interest to have a proper understanding of the far-reaching principles of the law of God. "By the law is the knowledge of sin," and "sin is the transgression of the law." Sinners must know what is sin before they can have a desire to be rid of sin. It is a matter of eternal interest that we do not misconceive this vital question. When appeals are made in the pulpits of our land, and sinners are invited to repent and to be converted, it is the privilege of the sinner to inquire, What is sin? This we must know, for it is at the peril of our souls that we continue in sin. The apostle gives us light on this subject, and says, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law." {ST, October 1, 1894 par. 2}

So very much is a real quickening notice of His Will and then to be of His Will is our calling.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

"I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven, descending to the earth, and again ascending to heaven, preparing for the fulfillment of some important event. Then I saw another mighty angel commissioned to descend to the earth, to unite his voice with the third angel, and give power and force to his message. Great power and glory were imparted to the angel, and as he descended, the earth was lightened with his glory. The light which attended this angel penetrated everywhere, as he cried mightily, with a strong voice, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." The message of the fall of Babylon, as given by the second angel, is repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the churches since 1844. The work of this angel comes in at the right time to join in the last great work of the third angel's message as it swells to a loud cry. And the people of God are thus prepared to stand in the hour of temptation, which they are soon to meet. I saw a great light resting upon them, and they united to fearlessly proclaim the third angel's message. {EW 277.1}

Angels were sent to aid the mighty angel from heaven, and I heard voices which seemed to sound everywhere, "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." This message seemed to be an addition to the third message, joining it as the midnight cry joined the second angel's message in 1844. The glory of God rested upon the patient, waiting saints, and they fearlessly gave the last solemn warning, proclaiming the fall of Babylon and calling upon God's people to come out of her that they might escape her fearful doom. {EW 277.2}

__________

Gibs, these statements you just quoted above speak of the time when it can be declared that Babylon the Great is fallen and we know from other statements that that message that Babylon the Great is fallen and the command to "come out of her My people" will not be present truth until she is in fact fallen and that will be when her sins will have reached unto heaven (Rev.18:5) and we know from the other statements that her sins will have reached unto heaven when the law of God shall be made void in the land through the enactment of the Sunday law through the union of church and state. Then the message of Rev.18:1-5 will be present truth and will go forth with mighty power.

This will be the fourth angel giving power to the third angel and it will swell into the loud cry to the world.

sky

[JoeMo]

Your post raises some interesting issues, Gibs:

"As intelligent creatures we may know and do the will of God, or we may stubbornly refuse to submit our finite will to the will of the Infinite. This responsibility that is placed upon us should fill us with a sense of awe. " (EGW quote from Gibs' post above)

Does God purposely "limit" His influence out of respect for our free will? It is indeed a travesty that that the "free will" of evil and rebellious people has such adverse impact on the righteous.

Was it God's will that so many perished in the World Trade Center attacks? No, it was the exercise of "free will" of criminal terrorists.

Is it's God's will that so many people in the Middle East are suffering and dying due to warfare? No it is the "free will" exercise of despotic and evil dictators and terrorists.

Is it God's will that America is going down the tubes? No; it is the exercise of "free will" by self-serving and corrupt politicians and financial institutions.

Is it God's will that the Euro currency is collapsing? No, it is the exercise of "free will" by dishonest politicians and financial institutions.

Assuming "global warming" is caused by human activity, is it God's will? No; it is the exercise of free will by people who prefer prosperity over a stable environment.

Is it God's will that most of the world's people are so ignorant about what's really happening on this planet? No; it is the exercise of free will by powerful media and politicians who censor information about the gospel and the true state of the world.

The evil in the world and the bad things that happen to people are not God's will; they are the consequences of evil, ignorant, and misguided people exercising their "free will" without considering the unintended consequences of their self-serving and ignorant acts. Could it be that, out of respect for man's free will, that God consciously limits His influence over humanity in general?

If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the Holy Trinity, man-made religion, worldly economics, and politics are the unholy trinity. I thank God that He has promised to cut it short.

The winds that the 4 angels of Revelation are holding back may not be howling yet; but it's getting mighty breezy!

Come, Lord Jesus!

[skyblue888]

The message of Rev.18:1-5 is concerned with Babylon the Great, not the Babylon of Rev.14 which fell in the summer of 1844.

sky

[CoAspen]

Way too much EGW quoting, most often out of context, to support certain opinions. When the Bible fails to say things just exactly people want it, they resort to 'quotes'. Interestingly, they still say they are people of the Bible...which is it? A recurring theme, makes me wonder if people really trust the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

Another derail....attempt....out of here!!!

Carry on JM.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

Don't give up - help keep us on topic. You said before, this is a broad and complicated subject. I agree that we need to avoid promoting our own theological agenda here; and using isolated quotes to back those up.

So again, is all of the "[censored]" going on in the world God's will or is it not? Is God so remote that He just lets all the "[censored]" go on? Is He so "weak" that He can't stop it? (no blasphemy intended) I don't think so. The world is bringing this on itself; and out of God's respect for the free will He gave us, He allows the world to continue and suffer the physical consequences of our choices (spiritual consequences to us as individuals is a subject for another thread). Frankly, I don't care to split hairs here over which Babylon is which; or which angel said what, or what our final test is. We have enough tests going on in our lives right now today. My intent is that this be about God, His power, and His relationship with us in light of what is going on in our world, our countries, and in our personal lives. I think we are all well enough versed in scripture and EGW to know what they say. What do you think? What is your experience and your reaction to it? We don't have control over all of the "[censored]" in our lives; but we have complete control over our spiritual reaction to it.

[skyblue888]

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

CoAspen, this is the method I have been using for many years and it has paid off and it has kept me from bringing in my own personal private opinions or interpretations.

JoeMo, do I understand you to say that it doesn't matter which Babylon is fallen. Who cares, right?

If someone goes out calling people out of Babylon the great and Babylon the Great is not yet fallen, then we may know that the individual is going ahead of the Lord and doing his own work.

It is important that we know the time when the message of Rev.18:1-5 will be present truth and this has already been revealed to us.

sky

[JoeMo]

I didn't say it didn't matter. I said it doesn't matter on this thread. We have discussed all these things on other threads (e.g., What must we overcome, Sometimes, etc.) We can continue to discuss them there. My purpose here is to learn what others think about how God is handling things now. How we respond to trials in our lives now will to a large extent determine how we will handle them in the future. How we respond to God's will now will to a large extent determine how we will handle them in the future. Now is the time for practice. Scholarship and conjecture about the future is one thing - experience in the present is another. Is God orchestrating the trials we are going though now, or is the world bringing it upon itself? If Syria or Iran attack Israel, is that God's doing or is it Syria's/Iraq's doing? If the Euro collapses or the U.S. goes bankrupt, is that orchestrated by God or the unintended consequences of selfish and evil men? If you go bankrupt or find out you have cancer tomorrow, did God do it, or is it an unintended consequence of something you may have done or not done?

[JoeMo]

Sky,

I was up alot last night thinking about your post. Unlike you, I am not eloquent on paper. I am an enginner and risk manager by profession - not a writer or theologian. It frustrates me when I can't express myself adequately. My post directly above is an example - it didn't adequately address my issue. I prayed about it, and this is what the Spirit (or my nocturnal imagination) impressed upon me:

I believe that what Babylon is, who the angels of Revelation are, who the antichrist is, and what the final test for man is, etc., etc., etc. are all important issues. But I don't believe they are salvational issues.

What are salvational issues (to me at least) have to do with what we think about God, and what we think God thinks about us. Do we view God as a loving Father, or judge, jury and executioner? Do we beleive God partners with us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, or do we believe that we are solely responsible for that?

When trials come into our lives, are they God's punishments or satan's attacks? When God doesn't answer our prayers, is it because He's "mad", or because He doesn't answer them the way we expect Him to? Are we looking for what God is doing on our behalf, or are we looking at what He isn't doing?

1 John 4 says "God is love." Mathmatically, it says "God" = "Love". If I (as a mathmatician) substitute the word "God" for the word "love" in I Cor. 13, I have (for example):

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have GOD, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have GOD, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have GOD, I gain nothing." (I Cor. 13:1-3)

We can quote and debate scripture and EGW all day long; but if we don't have a proper view of God and an intimate relationship with Him, to me it means nothing.

I want to talk about that relationship here; and how it impacts our lives and our outlook for the future. Does that make sense?

Truth is not a concept derived from furious study and rock-solid logic. Truth is a Person; and that Person is Jesus Christ. How do we relate to that Truth?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Truth is not a concept derived from furious study and rock-solid logic. Truth is a Person; and that Person is Jesus Christ. How do we relate to that Truth?

Excellent question!

[skyblue888]

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

CoAspen, this is the method I have been using for many years and it has paid off and it has kept me from bringing in my own personal private opinions or interpretations.

JoeMo, do I understand you to say that it doesn't matter which Babylon is fallen. Who cares, right?

If someone goes out calling people out of Babylon the great and Babylon the Great is not yet fallen, then we may know that the individual is going ahead of the Lord and doing his own work.

It is important that we know the time when the message of Rev.18:1-5 will be present truth and this has already been revealed to us.

sky

"Of Babylon, at the time brought to view in this prophecy, it is declared,'Her sins have reached unto heaven and God hath remembered her iniquities.' Rev.18:5. She has filled up the measure of her guilt and destruction is about to fall upon her. But God still has a people in Babylon; and before the visitation of His judgments, these faithful ones must be called out that they 'partake not of her sins and receive none of her plagues.'" The Great Controversy,604

The time brought to view in this prophecy is the time when the message goes forth that Babylon the Great is fallen. It is therefore also the time when the condition will have been reached when the sins of Babylon have reached as high as heaven and she will have filled up the measure of her guilt.

There is coming a time when the whole of Babylon in one vast confederacy will have come to the place where they will have reached the limit of rebellion against the God of Heaven.

And we are able to ascertain from the prophetic word just what EVENT will bring them to the place where their sins will have reached unto heaven.

Here are two statements, which, when read together give us the information we are seeking.

In the first one you will read that the law of God is to be made void when the Sunday law is passed. This is the time of the setting up of the image of the Beast as we learned earlier.

Then the second statement tells us that the sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void.

Those words then tell us as plainly as it ever could be told that the point of time when Babylon the Great is finally fallen is that point of time when the law of God is made void in the land by the enforcement of the Sunday law, by which act they fill up the measure of their guilt and their sins will reach unto Heaven above. Read the truth of it in these statements:

"A TIME IS COMING WHEN THE LAW OF GOD IS, IN A SPECIAL SENSE, TO BE MADE VOID IN THE LAND. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people will be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

"THE SINS OF THE WORLD WILL HAVE REACHED UNTO HEAVEN WHEN THE LAW OF GOD IS MADE VOID, when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land. In exalting an institution of man above the institution ordained of God, they show contempt for the great Lawgiver, and refuse His sign or seal." RH Nov.5, 1899.

In addition to the above there is also the statement from Testimonies Volume 5:451, where the same truth is expressed as follows,

"By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself FULLY from righteousness."

To disconnect one's self fully from righteousness is to come where one can go no further in departing from the living God. This is to fill up the measure of iniquity and guilt and to have one's sins reach unto heaven itself. And when will this be accomplished? It will be accomplished by the making of the DECREE which will ENFORCE the worship of the institution of the Papacy which we know to be the enforcement of the Sunday law.

It is important that we understand the timing for the fall of Babylon the Great so that we do not get caught in a false ministry.

sky

[skyblue888]

JoeMO, thanks for the compliment but personally I consider myself before God unlearned, and far from being eloquent. I find my eloquence in the declarations of Scripture and in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.

I have been on forums for many years and I have noticed that when one begins a thread he must expect and be willing for the Holy Spirit to take that thread wheresoever He may direct it. That way one does not have to worry about whether we stick to the topic or not. And even if somebody tries to hijack it, so be it.

sky :)

[skyblue888]

We can quote and debate scripture and EGW all day long; but if we don't have a proper view of God and an intimate relationship with Him, to me it means nothing.

JoeMo

_________

It means nothing to me either but in order to have a proper view of God and an intimage relationship with Him we must receive the messages He has sent to us through the Scriptures and the Testimonies.

sky

[CoAspen]

Quote:

That way one does not have to worry about whether we stick to the topic or not. And even if somebody tries to hijack it, so be it.

A rather arrogant and selfserving statement...ie, God made me do it!

[skyblue888]

or the devil made me do it...

[Gibs]

Well, I think that is the case with many Sky as without Christ within we have no power over him and his demons. But with Christ dwelling within Satan is a defeated foe and we easily can be overcomrs of him and his on every score. We must allow Him to be the Master in us and He will be our strength.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

I have to agree with CoAspen, Sky. I don't see how your quotes address the issue at hand or answer the questions being posed.

At any rate, I will be away with no internet access until this time next week; so ... Happy blogging!

[doug yowell]

Doug,

"Try looking into Bible only: I Sam.16:14 Ps.51:10,11 Ez.11:23 Eph.4:30 II Thes.2:6-8"

Thanks for the scripture verses. As far as the OT verses go, I agree - God did withdraw His Holy Spirit. However, in the OT, the Holy Spirit (aka "Comforter" or "Counsellor") had not been given to the church at large; it was only given after Christ's ascention into heaven.

[Woody]

Quote:

And even if somebody tries to hijack it, so be it.

sky

Very interesting thought there Sky. Certainly worthy of some thought.

[Woody]

I have to agree with CoAspen, Sky. I don't see how your quotes address the issue at hand or answer the questions being posed.

Perhaps they do to Sky - and perhaps not. Don't know that it matter either way. One can take it or leave it.