Did Ellen White perform the duties of a Pastor?

[Woody]

"And He ordained that men and women should be His representatives." --Education p. 33.

[doug yowell]

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Where do you get "head" pastors?

... Senior pastor,

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Did she baptize anyone? Did she pastor any church? Did she perform any wedding ceremony?

Did Jesus?

And Ellen White pastored the whole church.

I guess I'm not understanding why that has any relevancy to anything, for one thing...and why anyone should get more money because they baptize and marry others.

Ordination, or being a Pastor is not about "more money" or "equal" rights.

[olger]

I must agree, OA.

We have reached a breaking point when we care only for what is legal and nothing for what is "lawful."

Rejoice always, y'all.

G

[Tom Wetmore]

You have twisted it into a straw man argument. Few, if any, are approaching this as a legal issue, because it is not. And certainly in context of the immediate topic question, it is way off topic.

And it is also not about money now. Female pastors and male pastors with equal years of experience and in the same cost of living area are paid the same. And generally a senior pastor is paid very little more than an associate pastor. The church pay scale is quite flat so that even the conference president is paid only slightly more than the church pastors.

However, in EGW's day there was a pay difference between ordained pastors and unordained licensed pastors. And women were paid less, if at all, for the same work. That is why she rather bluntly told the Church leaders that unequal treatment of the women in ministry was wrong, not legally, but morally wrong.

And that is the framing of the inequality issue, not as a legal issue, but what is morally right.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ordination, or being a Pastor is not about "more money" or "equal" rights.

It most certainly IS -

Ordination gives a pastor a larger salary. If that ain't 'money' - then I give up.

[doug yowell]

You have twisted it into a straw man argument. Few, if any, are approaching this as a legal issue, because it is not. And certainly in context of the immediate topic question, it is way off topic.

And it is also not about money now. Female pastors and male pastors with equal years of experience and in the same cost of living area are paid the same. And generally a senior pastor is paid very little more than an associate pastor. The church pay scale is quite flat so that even the conference president is paid only slightly more than the church pastors.

However, in EGW's day there was a pay difference between ordained pastors and unordained licensed pastors. And women were paid less, if at all, for the same work. That is why she rather bluntly told the Church leaders that unequal treatment of the women in ministry was wrong, not legally, but morally wrong.

And that is the framing of the inequality issue, not as a legal issue, but what is morally right.

Come on, Tom. You well know that the entire issue started on the equality of pay issue. I remember all the IRS issues that were raised as a justification for ordaining women so they could receive the same tax breaks as their male counterparts (even though there were zero women head pastors). It was the original (and both just and legally tied)argument for equal pay for equal work but has now morphed into a whole different loaf of bread,not to mention morphing into the meaning of ordination issue.It's true that the issue is really not about money but it's also true that money was originally made a justification for the inclusion of female head pastors,conference presidents,ect...

[Tom Wetmore]

Actually it wasn't. Seriously, the tax issue was resolve long before things started heating up in the Pacific Union. I know, because as tax counsel I resolved the tax status of the unordained/commissioned female pastors back in the 80's. Quite frankly, it was only the ignorant and confused that kept raising that issue years later as somehow a reason something else needed to be done.

And the equality of pay issue for women generally was resolved by the Merikay/Pacific Press case. And no, Woody, an ordained pastor and a commissioned pastor are not paid differently in NAD. The equal pay issue outside of the US and other westernized areas may potentially be a real issue, but not because women and men doing the same are not paid the same. Men and women aren't even doing the same things and what is available for women to do won't be paid the same since it is viewed as lesser work.

[Woody]

And no, Woody, an ordained pastor and a commissioned pastor are not paid differently in NAD.

Of course - I agree with you and never said anything to the contrary.

I said "Ordination gives a pastor a larger salary." I did not speak regarding commissioning which as you indicate - does the same thing.

Sorry for any confusion. Looking back at the context - I can understand how you thought I was comparing it to commissioning.

[olger]

[doug yowell]

Actually it wasn't. Seriously, the tax issue was resolve long before things started heating up in the Pacific Union. I know, because as tax counsel I resolved the tax status of the unordained/commissioned female pastors back in the 80's. Quite frankly, it was only the ignorant and confused that kept raising that issue years later as somehow a reason something else needed to be done.

And the equality of pay issue for women generally was resolved by the Merikay/Pacific Press case.

That was good info,Tom. It corrects the misused argument that I often heard effectively employed{no pun intended)to move on to bigger things.

[teresaq]

You have twisted it into a straw man argument. Few, if any, are approaching this as a legal issue, because it is not. And certainly in context of the immediate topic question, it is way off topic.

And it is also not about money now. Female pastors and male pastors with equal years of experience and in the same cost of living area are paid the same. And generally a senior pastor is paid very little more than an associate pastor. The church pay scale is quite flat so that even the conference president is paid only slightly more than the church pastors.

However, in EGW's day there was a pay difference between ordained pastors and unordained licensed pastors. And women were paid less, if at all, for the same work. That is why she rather bluntly told the Church leaders that unequal treatment of the women in ministry was wrong, not legally, but morally wrong.

And that is the framing of the inequality issue, not as a legal issue, but what is morally right.

My bad! I believe I am the one who went in that direction.

In the 1920's the church recommended "drastically cutting" the wife's pay if both were in ministry, directly contrary to EGW's statements. I hope that has been rectified

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Well - she told her husband to back off when she felt the need:

"I feel sorry for you and feel deep sympathy for you in your

affliction. I mean to help you what I can, but don't let the enemy make you think only of my deficiencies which are, you think, so apparent, for in trying to fix me over, you may destroy my usefulness, my freedom, and bring me into a position of restraint, or embarrassment, that will unfit me for the work of God." {2BIO 431.3}

Even more interesting is 2 paragraphs later:

Originally Posted By: EllenWhite

We women must remember that God has placed us subject to the husband. He is the head and our judgment and views and reasonings must agree with his if possible. If not, the preference in God’s Word is given to the husband where it is not a matter of conscience. We must yield to the head.—Letter 5, 1861. {2BIO 431.5}