Salvation completed at the cross not the grave.

[Robert]

Makes it absolutely clear that he that don't overcome will die the second death in the SECOND resurrection!

Then what Christ did for us 2000 years ago is meaningless....I must obey the law, but not merely obey ten brief commands, but live Christ's life. Well, show me someone who is living His life of selflessness...Anyone?

[skyblue888]

Robert, it is well known that for many years you have been making the same argument that Job's friends made to Job, which is the argument of Satan himself, his great lie, that it is impossible in this life to live a sinless life, that sin is stronger than grace and that all are condemned to sin until Jesus comes.

Yet the Bible is clear. God will have a people in the end who will be living righteously as Job did, and as many others did.

The 144,000 will reflect Christ's character fully.

How can you continue to teach what to teach in the face of Revelation 22:11?

sky

[CoAspen]

Why...because she is a women?

Why, because she doesn't follow your theology?

[CoAspen]

Go to the source!! You are casting doubt, without even verifying the intent of her statements. That is Weak-kneed!! Don't beat around the bush, just ask her, rather simple to do and then post her response. I do believe she has had much more training than you and others on this forum. I dare say, if it was a man speaking her words, the hub-bub would be far less? That is the real issue isn't it! She dares to speak as a pastor and teach men!!

[Samie]

Samie, are the writings of Mrs. White inspired to you or not?

[doug yowell]

Go to the source!! You are casting doubt, without even verifying the intent of her statements.

[doug yowell]

Why...because she is a women?

Why, because she doesn't follow your theology?

...and speaking of theology,this does bring up an interesting question about the calling of the Holy Spirit to "pastoral' ministry. It is asserted by supporters of Hyveth Williams that she was called by God to this role. It is asserted by supporters of Doug Batchelor that he was called by God to his role. Pastor Williams teaches that the Holy Spirit is calling women to fulfill the same pastoral roles as traditionally filled by men. Pastor Batchelor says that God is not calling women to those roles.Unlike many other theological questions,there are here only two options to choose from.But that's (important)fodder for another thread.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Samie, are the writings of Mrs. White inspired to you or not?

"Inspired" does not necessarily mean "infallible", does it?

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

You just quoted statements from her writings to contradict the ones I just quoted, thus pitting the ones against the others thus giving the impression that her writings are full of contradictions. But the contradiction is only seemingly.

I respect your statement.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

These words, "... One who through the sacrifice of His own life was to make atonement for sin once for all..."

On the surface, it appears that here she is saying that the atonement was made on the cross once and for all.

Well, she did say it, just the same.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Why then would she say that He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgressions, and why would she teach that on Oct.22,1844 He entered the Most Holy to begin the final atonement

I cannot really answer for Sister White.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Yes, the sacrificial atonement on the cross was full and complete but that was not the atonement itself but the condition for the atonement.

The Bible does not agree with you, because Paul said we were "atoned" or "reconciled" by Christ's death and that we have already received that "atonement" (Rom 5:10,11).

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In order words through that sacrifice which was full and complete Jesus fulfilled the condition for Him to be able to make atonement having entered the first apartment of the sanctuary above. Otherwise, if she meant that the atonement was made on the cross once and for all there would be need to make atonement in the first apartment of the sanctuary above let alone a final atonement beginning in 1844.

That is why there is no Biblical basis for that view.

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

And we also know that the Lord showed her that brother Crozier had the true light as to whether atonement was made on the cross or not. In the article which he published in the Day Star, Extra, February 7,1846, Crozier made it absolutely clear that the atonement itself did not take place on Calvary. Mrs. White stated that she felt fully authorized by the Lord to recommend this article to every saint.

Have you ever read it?

sky

Sister White herself commended the example of Zwingli in taking the Bible as the only sufficient, infallible rule:

Quote:

He submitted himself to the Bible as the word of God, the only sufficient, infallible rule. He saw that it must be its own interpreter. He dared not attempt to explain Scripture to sustain a preconceived theory or doctrine, but held it his duty to learn what is its direct and obvious teaching. {GC 173.2}

From: LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES

by M.L. Andreason

WARNING NOT TO BE UNHEEDED

In an incomplete research which I conducted years ago I found in a small pamphlet entitled, "A Word to the Little Flock," published by James White in Brunswick, Maine, May 30, 1847, a statement by Sister White on the sanctuary that immediately drew my attention. It is dated April 21, 1847, and written from Topsham, Maine. On page 12, I found these words, which I suppose our Ministry author also found. Says Sister White:

"I believe the Sanctuary to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord showed me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, etc., and that it was His will, that Brother Crozier should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra to every saint. I pray that these lines may prove a blessing to you, and all the dear children who may read them." Signed E.G. White.

I lost no time to get a copy of that Extra and read it. As I write this I have before me a photostatic copy of the Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, and on pages 40 and 41 of that issue I read Brother Crosier's article. After having discussed certain theories in which he does not believe, Brother Crozier observes:

"But again, they say that the atonement was made and finished on Calvary, when the Lamb of God expired. So men have taught us, and so the churches and world believe; but it is none the more true or sacred on that account, if unsupported by Divine authority. Perhaps few or none who hold that opinion have ever tested the foundation on which it rests.

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." [color:#3366FF]The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us.

This, then is the "[color:#6600CC]true light", which the Lord showed Sister White in vision, had His approval, and which she felt fully authorized to recommend to every saint.

This settles it for me.

sky

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Why don't you do that and let us know why she worded her Spectrum article in that way?

You and others are questioning her....not I ,or did you forget that little tidbit?

Questioning someone and not having the courage or.....is that how to arrive at a conclusion?

Do you doubt everyones relationship with God that disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible? Seems like dangerous ground to tread upon. To doubt one being lead by the H*S is to doubt that realtionship with God/Christ because they are one and the same.

[doug yowell]

Do you doubt everyones relationship with God that disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Do you doubt everyones relationship with God that disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible?

Of course not but I can doubt their "calling" to ministry if their basic understanding of salvation is substantially different than the one espoused by the church they are called to represent.

Quote:

Seems like dangerous ground to tread upon.

Why? Is the Christian merely supposed to take the word of the claimant without comparing it to the Biblical guideline?

Quote:

To doubt one being lead by the H*S is to doubt that realtionship with God/Christ because they are one and the same.

I agree that the relationship doubted can be either a born-again experience or a ministerial calling or both.Right now we're talking the call to pastoral ministry and there is a Biblical warning to consider: "They have envisioned futility and false divination,saying,'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them;yet they hope that the word may be confirmed." "To the law and to the testimony' seems basic when teaching about the atonement within the remnant church.

Amen brother. That's the way I see it also. Pretty basic.

[Guest]

Robert, it is well known that for many years you have been making the same argument that Job's friends made to Job, which is the argument of Satan himself, his great lie, that it is impossible in this life to live a sinless life, that sin is stronger than grace and that all are condemned to sin until Jesus comes.

Yet the Bible is clear. God will have a people in the end who will be living righteously as Job did, and as many others did.

The 144,000 will reflect Christ's character fully.

How can you continue to teach what to teach in the face of Revelation 22:11?

sky

Hey Robert, sky is right you know.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I agree that the relationship doubted can be either a born-again experience or a ministerial calling or both.Right now we're talking the call to pastoral ministry......

Your opinion and you can have that. But, it has not been made plain as to the subject of the doubt, until now. It is a very dangerous thing to leave such a claim, of your and others, open ended for any assumption or interpretation. Never leave any doubt what you are talking about, it keeps a person in the clear...so to speak.

I have listened to her for a long time and have enjoyed her plain and simple sermons. i do not have any doubt. If I did, I would make sure first, as to what her meaning was, not assume!!

[Woody]

Give me the name of ANY pastor - And I can find error in them.

[Samie]

From: LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES

by M.L. Andreason

WARNING NOT TO BE UNHEEDED

...

This settles it for me.

sky

[Gibs]

The sacrifice for the atonement was made at calvary, the cross but the atonement not until our Redeemer becomes High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary. The "type" here on earth was a shadow, picture of the true at the end of the age instead of the yr..

Are we not living in that last great day now that began around 1844? It is right at the very end of it each should know.

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. . . . All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." {AG 69.5}

M. L. Andreasen I find had it right and I find EGW did not disagree or his didn't disagree with her acessment.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

The sacrifice for the atonement was made at calvary, the cross but the atonement not until our Redeemer becomes High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary. The "type" here on earth was a shadow, picture of the true at the end of the age instead of the yr..

Are we not living in that last great day now that began around 1844? It is right at the very end of it each should know.

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. . . . All who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." {AG 69.5}

M. L. Andreasen I find had it right and I find EGW did not disagree or his didn't disagree with her acessment.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sadly, Gibs, the Scriptures disagree with your observation. Here's my post in another thread relative to when atonement, as per Scriptures, was made:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/557435/samie.html#Post557435