Ron Amnsn Posted July 21, 2012 Posted July 21, 2012 While Jesus was on earth he lived and taught according to God's Law as recorded in the first five books of the Bible (aka Mosaic Law, Torah, or Law of Moses). Is Jesus still a Torah-observant Jew? Quote
Gibs Posted July 21, 2012 Posted July 21, 2012 Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2012 Moderators Posted July 21, 2012 What part of the Mosaic Law do you think He would be disregarding? Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 21, 2012 Members Posted July 21, 2012 Ron, when you say Mosaic Laws, are you saying the Health laws, etc., or the added rules that the Jews added to the Laws? Like how to keep the Sabbath, by not walking more than a mile, put your hankerchief(sp) in your left back pocket and not the right one as you do on the other days of the week! Etc., etc. If you mean the health laws I would say: Yes, if he still lived here! Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 While Jesus was on earth he lived and taught according to God's Law as recorded in the first five books of the Bible (aka Mosaic Law, Torah, or Law of Moses). Is Jesus still a Torah-observant Jew? NO! Jesus shed his blood on the cross to give us the 'new covenant' which is for all men not just the Jews. I don't have to eat kosher food or grow a beard or sacrifice a lamb every time I sin. He spoke about faith and love just like all the other disciples did. Every miracle he performed required faith not law-keeping and the few times he did speak about law-keeping were just to win over the unbelieving Jews. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Posted July 22, 2012 Can you just picture Jesus eating pork? Quote
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Can you just picture Jesus eating pork? I wish he had. That would have put an end to the useless food rules once and for all. We're no better if eat and no worse if we don't (1Cor.8:8) Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 Ron, when you say Mosaic Laws, are you saying the Health laws, etc., or the added rules that the Jews added to the Laws? Like how to keep the Sabbath, by not walking more than a mile, put your hankerchief(sp) in your left back pocket and not the right one as you do on the other days of the week! Etc., etc. If you mean the health laws I would say: Yes, if he still lived here! I'm talking about the instructions, commandments, statutes, and laws that God gave to Moses and are written in the Scriptures. The Jewish sages have identified 613 laws written in the Law of Moses. I'm not talking about the traditional man-made "oral law" or "fence laws" that were added by the Jews. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Posted July 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Can you just picture Jesus eating pork? I wish he had. That would have put an end to the useless food rules once and for all. We're no better if eat and no worse if we don't (1Cor.8:8) If people are no better or worse of for having the Mosaic laws, why do you think God gave them to the Israelites? Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 Jesus shed his blood on the cross to give us the 'new covenant' which is for all men not just the Jews. I don't have to eat kosher food or grow a beard or sacrifice a lamb every time I sin. He spoke about faith and love just like all the other disciples did. Every miracle he performed required faith not law-keeping and the few times he did speak about law-keeping were just to win over the unbelieving Jews. Cheddar, have you read the 'new covenant' recently? (Jer 31:31-34 quoted in Heb 8:8-12) The actual wording of the 'new covenant' seems to contradict what you said about it. The 'new covenant' specifically says that the 'new covenant is made "with the house of Judah and the house of Israel". The 'new covenant' specifically says that that God will write his Law [literally "torah"] on our hearts. It says God will forgive our sins -- it says nothing about changing the definition of sin to make previously sinful behavior no longer sinful. Quote
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 If people are no better or worse of for having the Mosaic laws, why do you think God gave them to the Israelites? Because he was in a bad mood that day and didn't want them to eat the good stuff? Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 NO! Cheddar, which passages of Scripture support your answer? Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 What part of the Mosaic Law do you think He would be disregarding? I haven't found anything in Scripture that would suggest that Jesus would be disregarding any of it. Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. That makes sense to me. Why would he change? Quote
Members phkrause Posted July 22, 2012 Members Posted July 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: cheddar Jesus shed his blood on the cross to give us the 'new covenant' which is for all men not just the Jews. I don't have to eat kosher food or grow a beard or sacrifice a lamb every time I sin. He spoke about faith and love just like all the other disciples did. Every miracle he performed required faith not law-keeping and the few times he did speak about law-keeping were just to win over the unbelieving Jews. Cheddar, have you read the 'new covenant' recently? (Jer 31:31-34 quoted in Heb 8:8-12) The actual wording of the 'new covenant' seems to contradict what you said about it. The 'new covenant' specifically says that the 'new covenant is made "with the house of Judah and the house of Israel". The 'new covenant' specifically says that that God will write his Law [literally "torah"] on our hearts. It says God will forgive our sins -- it says nothing about changing the definition of sin to make previously sinful behavior no longer sinful. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted July 22, 2012 Members Posted July 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: Gibs Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. That makes sense to me. Why would he change? to both responses. Its bad enough the illnesses we get from the food that God has allowed us to eat, but to eat the meat of the filthiest animals makes no sense whatsoever. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Cheddar, have you read the 'new covenant' recently? (Jer 31:31-34 quoted in Heb 8:8-12) The actual wording of the 'new covenant' seems to contradict what you said about it. The 'new covenant' specifically says that the 'new covenant is made "with the house of Judah and the house of Israel". The 'new covenant' specifically says that that God will write his Law [literally "torah"] on our hearts. It says God will forgive our sins -- it says nothing about changing the definition of sin to make previously sinful behavior no longer sinful. So are you saying that the new covenant is only for literal Jews? I really have a problem with adventists who wrest large portions of scripture and in your case the entire new testament. 1) Paul said that he is not a Jew who is one out outwardly (flesh) but he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart (Rom. 2:28,29). That’s pretty clear to me. A spiritual Jew can be anyone who lives by faith including literal Jews or gentiles and is someone who has the law of agape written in the heart not the Torah. 2) Peter said that the gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. That the Holy Spirit would purify their hearts by faith. Then he says why tempt God by putting a yoke around their neck which we nor our fathers were able to bear (Acts 15:7-11). Sounds like the same thing you’re trying to do – reject the new covenant and go back to the old. 3) I love how people quote Heb. chap. 8 and omit the last verse – ‘In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away’ ( vs. 13). Sorry, Ron but your precious Torah has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. We don’t have to try and keep the Law anymore, we just need to believe that Jesus kept the Law and his spotless righteousness is imputed to us. Quote
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 to both responses. Its bad enough the illnesses we get from the food that God has allowed us to eat, but to eat the meat of the filthiest animals makes no sense whatsoever. I had more health problems as a vegan than I ever did eating meat. I don't have a problem with people who are vegetarian or vegan, unfortunately that same respect is never reciprocated. I eat everything – pork, shell fish and enough fast food that would choke your normal adventist. I’ve prayed about it many times and Jesus impressed me that it’s alright. Keeps me from falling back into legalism. Quote
OzarkWoman Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Can you just picture Jesus eating pork? Actually I can!!! He would be most humble and appreciative no matter where he ate and he would be grateful for the hospitality. Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 So are you saying that the new covenant is only for literal Jews? I really have a problem with adventists who wrest large portions of scripture and in your case the entire new testament. It doesn't matter much what I say. What God says is what is important. God said that He would make the 'new covenant' with Judah and Israel. However, that doesn't mean that the Gentiles are excluded. Gentiles have always been welcome to join with the Israelites in their covenants with God. Starting as far back as Abraham, all the males in his household were circumcised as a sign the covenant, even though none of them were Jews. When the Israelites left Egypt they were joined by the mixed multitude who stood together with Israel at Sinai and joined in the covenant. The Gentiles are also welcome to join with Israelites in the 'new covenant' when they accept Jesus (a Jew) as Redeemer, King and Lord. Paul teaches that Gentile believers are grafted in to Israel (Rom 9-11). Quote
Ron Amnsn Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 1) Paul said that he is not a Jew who is one out outwardly (flesh) but he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart (Rom. 2:28,29). That’s pretty clear to me. A spiritual Jew can be anyone who lives by faith including literal Jews or gentiles and is someone who has the law of agape written in the heart not the Torah. There is more to Romans 2 than just the last two verses. Have you read the whole chapter? In Romans 2 Paul defines rather clearly who the Gentiles are who may be referred to as "spiritual Jews". It is those who: "do instinctively the things of the Law" (v 15) "show the work of the Law written in their hearts" (v 16) "the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law" (v 26) "he keeps the Law" (v 27). The "spiritual Jew" of Romans 2 is the Gentile who is actually doing the things that the literal Jews should have been doing. When you talk about "anyone who lives by faith" you're using the English definition of "faith", which refers to something that happens primarily in one's head. However, in both Greek and Hebrew "faith" is inseparable from "faithfulness". The action component of "faithfulness" is an essential part of the belief component of "faith". This is clearly exemplified in Hebrews 11 where all the giants of faith are commended for what they did, not what they thought inside their heads. Can you show us the passage of Scripture that teaches that a "spiritual Jew" is anyone "who has the law of agape written in the heart not the Torah"? You seem to ignoring the fact that the Torah was given by the God who is "agape". Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Posted July 22, 2012 Originally Posted By: pkrause to both responses. Its bad enough the illnesses we get from the food that God has allowed us to eat, but to eat the meat of the filthiest animals makes no sense whatsoever. I had more health problems as a vegan than I ever did eating meat. I don't have a problem with people who are vegetarian or vegan, unfortunately that same respect is never reciprocated. I eat everything – pork, shell fish and enough fast food that would choke your normal adventist. I’ve prayed about it many times and Jesus impressed me that it’s alright. Keeps me from falling back into legalism. I have seen and still see vegetarians who are not healthy because the non-flesh they eat are NOT the most healthy foods. I have a problem with impressions that go against Scripture. So I should steal occasionally to keep me from falling into legalism? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2012 Moderators Posted July 22, 2012 So are you saying that the new covenant is only for literal Jews? I really have a problem with adventists who wrest large portions of scripture and in your case the entire new testament. You have me confused. You want to be part of the covenant community but want to have no part of what is required of the community. Quote
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 I could show you many texts but would it do any good? I think not. Jesus said that the Law is summed up in one word - 'agape' Agape is not something that we do - it's something that God does. By beholding we become changed. By beholding the ten commandments we become legalists. Quote
cheddar Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 I have a problem with impressions that go against Scripture. So I should steal occasionally to keep me from falling into legalism? If you're poor and hungry Jesus said it was ok. Quote
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