Does Jesus still keep the Mosaic Law?

[Ron Amnsn]

2) Peter said that the gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. That the Holy Spirit would purify their hearts by faith. Then he says why tempt God by putting a yoke around their neck which we nor our fathers were able to bear (Acts 15:7-11). Sounds like the same thing you’re trying to do – reject the new covenant and go back to the old.

In Acts 15 Peter was talking to a whole congregation of Jews whose leaders described as "all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20) These people obviously weren't relating to the Law of Moses as if it was unbearable. They were bearing it and bearing it zeal. Moses too said of the Law that it was "not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach" (Deut 30:11) And when Jesus was living perfectly according to the Law, he said, "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt 11:29-30)

So was Peter lying? If Peter had said that the Law of Moses was a yoke that the Jews had been unable to bear, it would have been an outright lie that both contradicted what Scripture taught and denied the experience of the people Peter was talking to.

So what was the "burden" that Peter was speaking of? He was speaking of the same thing that Jesus was speaking of when he said, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." (Matt 23:4) It was the man-made traditions of the "oral law" that the Jewish sages had added to God's law that were burdensome.

Cheddar, you speak of God's Law as if it is something bad, something to be avoided, something that a person is better off without. The Scriptures never speak of God's law like that. Instead the Scriptures always speak of God's law as something good and beneficial:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim 3: 16-17)

"How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, Who seek Him with all their heart."(Psalm 119:2)

"And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts." (Psalm 119:45)

[Ron Amnsn]

3) I love how people quote Heb. chap. 8 and omit the last verse – ‘In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away’ ( vs. 13). Sorry, Ron but your precious Torah has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. We don’t have to try and keep the Law anymore, we just need to believe that Jesus kept the Law and his spotless righteousness is imputed to us.

There's nothing wrong with the last verse of Hebrews 8, and you quote it better than most do. Many Christians try to change the verb tenses of that verse in an attempt to say that the 'old covenant' was already obsolete when Hebrews was written. Hebrews was written decades after Jesus rose from the dead, yet it is clear from verse 13 that the 'old covenant' was still in effect at that time.

It's also clear from Hebrews 8 that the 'new covenant' is not yet in full effect even now because under the 'new covenant' we won't need to teach our neighbors about YHWH-- they will all know Him. We currently still have neighbors and brothers who don't know YHWH.

When the 'new covenant' is fully implemented God's Torah will be written on our hearts. Jesus said, "Follow me" and "I am the way." When a person follows Jesus and walks the way Jesus walked, he will be obedient to the Law of Moses, because Jesus is obedient to the Law of Moses. Jesus showed us how to truly keep God's Law the way God intended-- with our whole hearts.

[Ron Amnsn]

Keeps me from falling back into legalism.

As you know, Cheddar, the word "legalism" is not found in Scripture. The Bible never condemns anyone for obedience motivated by legalism. It does encourage people to obey for better reasons than legalism, but obedience to God is still a good thing no matter what the motivation of the heart is.

Imagine a father who says to his toddler, "I see you're not playing in the street. That would be a good thing if it were motivated by love for me, but since it is motivated by legalism it would be better for you to go play in the street to avoid legalism."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I have a problem with impressions that go against Scripture. So I should steal occasionally to keep me from falling into legalism?

If you're poor and hungry Jesus said it was ok.

Text, please?

[Ron Amnsn]

I had more health problems as a vegan than I ever did eating meat.

The Bible doesn't ask a person to be a vegan. Imagine going to a land described as "flowing with milk and honey" when you're not allowed to use either of those.

The man-made chemicals in pesticides, perfumes and solvents are a major problem for many people, as is emotional stress.

[cheddar]

When the 'new covenant' is fully implemented God's Torah will be written on our hearts. Jesus said, "Follow me" and "I am the way." When a person follows Jesus and walks the way Jesus walked, he will be obedient to the Law of Moses, because Jesus is obedient to the Law of Moses. Jesus showed us how to truly keep God's Law the way God intended-- with our whole hearts.

Do you have a full beard? If you're clean shaven you are not following the Torah and God will frown upon your disobedience.

Ever pick up sticks on the Sabbath? Not a happy ending for those people. How far do you want to go with this?

----------

So when the bible speaks of Jews or Israelites is always referencing people who are literal Jews whose bloodline goes back to Jacob (Israel)?

This is a topic that the Protestant world has stumbled over. They think that there are only literal Jews and that’s it. All the OT promises are for them and could never be for anyone else.

[Ron Amnsn]

Do you have a full beard? If you're clean shaven you are not following the Torah and God will frown upon your disobedience.

Ever pick up sticks on the Sabbath? Not a happy ending for those people. How far do you want to go with this?

[Ron Amnsn]

So when the bible speaks of Jews or Israelites is always referencing people who are literal Jews whose bloodline goes back to Jacob (Israel)?

For clarification:

The term "Jew" technically refers to those Israelites who:

• were from the tribe of Judah, or
• were from the southern kingdom of Judah (after the ten tribes rebelled against David's grandson Rehoboam), or
• live in Judea.

[Gerr]

I could show you many texts but would it do any good? I think not.

Jesus said that the Law is summed up in one word - 'agape'

Agape is not something that we do - it's something that God does. By beholding we become changed.

By beholding the ten commandments we become legalists.

So, tell us how you can have agape while disregarding one of the 10c.

[cheddar]

So you put no stock in what Paul says: that a real Jew is someone who is stiritual inwardly and follows the example of Abraham and lives a life of faith?

So who would the 144K of Revelation be - Spiritual Israel or literal Israel? Even James refers to Christians as 'the twelve tribes scattered abroad'.

[cheddar]

So, tell us how you can have agape while disregarding one of the 10c.

by faith...

David stole from the temple when he was hungry and Jesus commended him for it.

The disciples broke the Sabbath by eating corn from the field and Jesus justified them as well.

[Ron Amnsn]

So you put no stock in what Paul says: that a real Jew is someone who is stiritual inwardly and follows the example of Abraham and lives a life of faith?

I put full stock in what Paul says in context.

Moses tells us in Genesis 26:5 what God said about Abraham, "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." That's a fine example to follow.

A life of faith doesn't include habitual disobedience to God's law.

[Ron Amnsn]

So who would the 144K of Revelation be - Spiritual Israel or literal Israel? Even James refers to Christians as 'the twelve tribes scattered abroad'.

Revelation says that the 144,000 are made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. That sounds rather literal to me. Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual Israel" that is separate from the remnant of literal Israel.

A "spiritual Israel" that is separate from literal Israel exists only in the imaginations of people who don't like what Scripture says.

James is talking about literal Israelites scattered abroad. If you recall, the twelve tribes of literal Israel had been "scattered abroad" since the Assyrian captivity and the Babylonian captivity. Only a portion of the Israelites returned to the land of Israel. That's why Jews travelled to Jerusalem from so many nations for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in Acts 2. It's why Paul ran into Jews wherever he traveled. It's also why the message of the angel in Revelation is "Babylon is fallen... come out of her, my people". The OT prophets repeatedly prophesy about the time when God will regather literal Israel. That event is sometimes referred to as the 2nd Exodus or the Greater Exodus.

[Ron Amnsn]

David stole from the temple when he was hungry and Jesus commended him for it.

Which part of what Jesus said about that incident do you interpret as a commendation of David for doing that?

[Ron Amnsn]

The disciples broke the Sabbath by eating corn from the field and Jesus justified them as well.

Eating corn from a field they were walking through was not breaking God's Laws. It was only breaking the Sabbath traditions of the Jews.

Torah allows a person to eat from a field they are passing through, but does not allow a person to harvest from that field. Thus a distinction is made between harvesting and eating. Harvesting involves collecting in a container and carrying away. Torah prohibits harvesting on Sabbath, but does not prohibit eating on Sabbath.

Jesus said his disciples were innocent because they actually were innocent according to Torah.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So, tell us how you can have agape while disregarding one of the 10c.

by faith...

David stole from the temple when he was hungry and Jesus commended him for it.

The disciples broke the Sabbath by eating corn from the field and Jesus justified them as well.

You need to look for better examples, Cheddar. Neither David nor the disciples 'stole' anything. The bread was given to David by the priest, and there was nothing in the law that prohibited eating the grain on the Sabbath. Faith that prompts one to break one of God's 10c is not faith but presumption.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Can you just picture Jesus eating pork?

Actually I can!!! He would be most humble and appreciative no matter where he ate and he would be grateful for the hospitality.

Had Jesus in any way disregarded even a jot and tittle of the Law, He would have failed as our Substitute, the Lamb without blemish or spot, and we would still be in our sins.

[cheddar]

Revelation says that the 144,000 are made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. That sounds rather literal to me. Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual Israel" that is separate from the remnant of literal Israel.

A "spiritual Israel" that is separate from literal Israel exists only in the imaginations of people who don't like what Scripture says.

'For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly'. You absolutely do not put full stock in what Paul says. Paul, point blank, declares the Jews of the flesh are not the real Jews. How can you follow the Torah so faithfully and disregard this. No wonder the Jews of the flesh wanted to stone him - he was calling them all frauds and fakes.

[cheddar]

Eating corn from a field they were walking through was not breaking God's Laws. It was only breaking the Sabbath traditions of the Jews.

Torah allows a person to eat from a field they are passing through, but does not allow a person to harvest from that field. Thus a distinction is made between harvesting and eating. Harvesting involves collecting in a container and carrying away. Torah prohibits harvesting on Sabbath, but does not prohibit eating on Sabbath.

Jesus said his disciples were innocent because they actually were innocent according to Torah.

You don't know your Torah very well.

We are supposed to prepare for the Sabbath on the preparation day (Friday) so no extra work is done on the Sabbath.

The disciples did not prepare so according to the letter of the Law the Pharisees were correct. They were breaking the Law and Jesus said it was ok.

[Ron Amnsn]

'For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly'. You absolutely do not put full stock in what Paul says. Paul, point blank, declares the Jews of the flesh are not the real Jews. How can you follow the Torah so faithfully and disregard this. No wonder the Jews of the flesh wanted to stone him - he was calling them all frauds and fakes.

Following Torah is not the same as following Paul. If Paul actually said what you claim he said, a follower of Torah would be required to reject Paul's writings because your interpretation contradicts the previously existing Scriptures. (The noble Bereans would never have been able to verify your interpretation of Paul's teachings by searching the OT Scriptures.) But since your claims also contradicts what Paul actually wrote, we can just reject your misinterpretation and accept the writings of Paul.

What Paul wrote had a context. Romans 2 also specifies which kind of Jews Paul was speaking to. Read it. It would be an unreasonable stretch to say that Paul was calling all the literal Jews in the congregation of believers at Rome "frauds and fakes". To try apply that to all literal Jews all over the world would be an outright lie.

If you keep reading the rest of Romans you find that Paul himself refutes what you said about the literal Jews, even the non-believing ones. See chapters 9 to 11.

[Ron Amnsn]

We are supposed to prepare for the Sabbath on the preparation day (Friday) so no extra work is done on the Sabbath.

The disciples did not prepare so according to the letter of the Law the Pharisees were correct. They were breaking the Law and Jesus said it was ok.

Show us the "letter of the Law" from the Law of Moses. What you claim is simply not there.

[cheddar]

Show us the "letter of the Law" from the Law of Moses. What you claim is simply not there.

[Ron Amnsn]

And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day. And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. Ex. 16:22-31

Nice quote. The disciples didn't disobey any of the Law that you quoted.

It would certainly be breaking the the Sabbath to harvest manna on Sabbath. But the disciples weren't harvesting, they were eating, which Moses said could be done on the Sabbath. It would be more work for the disciples to walk all the way home to find their prepared meal and lift the food from their plates to their mouths, than to eat the grain that was at hand in the field where the disciples and the Pharisees were.

You and the Pharisees are both adding to God's commandments, something that actually is forbidden by Torah.

[jasd]

>>Its bad enough the illnesses we get from the food that God has allowed us to eat,<<

That's fruits, nuts, veggies, milk and eggs, and meat, yes? However, given the facts as they exist today - more people die from veggie and fruit borne illnesses than do those who die from meats. Moreover, take your choice, excessive antibiotics in meats or genetically modified grains and veggies.

I think that I'd rather chance a future bacteria having developed tolerance for antibiotics given to animals than to ingest the genetic changes done to GMO foods. I don't know, but visions of grandchildren born with two heads dance through my GMO-infected dreams.

>>...but to eat the meat of the filthiest animals makes no sense whatsoever.<<

Ever gone fishing and used earthworms for bait? Tells you that fish eat earthworms. Earthworms carry tapeworms, which passes to the fish. They also will eat that excreted. Not to pleasant a thought, eh?

Chickens: no problem there, yes?--however, have you seen people keeping chickens in their homes as pets? Absolutely not! But many people keep pigs in their homes because pigs are naturally clean. Notwithstanding the fact that they love to lay in mud, they tend towards keeping as clean as they might.

Remember, that one is supposed to eat whatever is put in front of them at the dinner table of a host - demurring only in the fact that one must give the Lord thanks for the food.

Sez so in the book. :)

[skyblue888]

meat yes? Noooooope.

... more people die from veggie and fruit borne illnesses than do those who die from meat...

where in the world did u get this info?

eat whatever is put in front of you!!!

oh really!???

If you won't refrain from eating meat for conscience's sake do it for stomach's sake.

sky