If Jesus is my Substitute -

[Gerr]

then how come I MUST die?

[phkrause]

Which one? The first or second death? The first, we all die from, old age, car accident, diease, etc. The second, well I think you can figure that one out.

[Windsor]

God doesn't consider the first death anything but a sleep. It's the second death you will not die.

[Gerr]

The second death!

[Gibs]

Gerry has stated, "the second death". None have to that is for sure, but it is a fact that many or most will fail at making Jesus Christ their substitute. That is why we are counciled to make our calling and election sure.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

A call to examine your stance of belief and understanding.

That in it's self shows there is more to it than most are seeing.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

then how come I MUST die?

Your first death is the result of sin and its effects on this world. For example, we know that because of greed industries take short cuts thus polluting land and water. Diseases are the result....That's why you die the 1st death.

The 2nd death is the curse of the law. It's where God has to abandon the unbeliever. When God abandons the wicked our sin-ridden world will self-detonate because of the effects of sin. The wicked will suffer the 2nd death - which is goodbye to life forever.

[M. T. Cross]

How would Jesus be the Substitute for the second death? If he is eternal he obviously has not died the second death.

[Robert]

How would Jesus be the Substitute for the second death? If he is eternal he obviously has not died the second death.

Gal 5:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

Note that, Christ as the son of mankind, experienced the second death. If not then you and I haven't been legally delivered from under the law.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

(for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

I think Odin would agree.

On topic however - is not the second death eternal and final?

[Robert]

is not the second death eternal and final?

yes....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

is not the second death eternal and final?

yes....

I know what you are thinking....If Christ died the 2nd death, then how come He is alive and in heaven?

Answer: 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

verse 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

[Robert]

Quote:

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

You see at the incarnation Christ's Deity was mysteriously combined with our humanity in the womb of Mary. Hence Christ became the son of man.

Here's Paul:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness,

So Christ was both God and man. His Deity didn't change...it didn't become human - .....Likewise His humanity didn't become divine, it remained flesh.

What died on the cross was Christ's assumed humanity. Diety didn't sink and die.

"When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature (His humanity) that died (the 2nd death). Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." Ellen White

Christ's assumed humanity remained in the grave. That humanity, indwelt with sin, died forever. In the resurrection Christ as God was raised with a glorified humanity free from all traces of sin. Our old life died in Him forever. It never came up!

[Gerr]

Gerry has stated, "the second death". None have to that is for sure, but it is a fact that many or most will fail at making Jesus Christ their substitute. That is why we are counciled to make our calling and election sure.

Let me explain. When Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ," the "old man" dies. Was the death that the old man dies only a sleep or was/is it to be a permanent death?

[Robert]

When Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ," the "old man" dies. Was the death that the old man dies only a sleep or was/is it to be a permanent death?

Permanent

Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self (our humanity from Adam after the fall) was crucified with him [why?] so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now there are two applications here:

1] What happened in Christ

and

2] What happens by faith in the believer

If we say we are dead to sin then John calls us a liar. Yes, we are growing and becoming more like Christ, but we are not dead to sin.

However, in Christ, our humanity died forever. Christ as God wasn't resurrected with our fallen humanity. He was raised with a glorified humanity like the angels in heaven. He is now both God and humanity glorified. Our old life that He assumed was never raised. That humanity died the 2nd death.

Likewise, at the 2nd coming, we will be changed. The old life vanishes in the blink of an eye:

1 Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh (Sarx - fallen, sinful humanity) ... cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (remain dead), but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

[Gibs]

Jesus is our substitute if we have surrendered all and trust and obey Him. But most will not. Why not? That surrender is too tough, many will not fall broken and allow Him, His Spirit to rule in them, no they will not. The old man must die that a new man may be born in you. Many are baptised of water but not of the Spirit of God. That is the Baptism needed, but first a willing death of I, Me, Myself. All must be laid on the altar, all three of you, me, myself and I. Do it! Do it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

You're not answering my question. If He is my Substitute and died for me, then why must I die?

[Gibs]

Very true, IF He is your substitute you will not die the second death. I am not the judge of that, He is. Our thing is to make sure we have complied with the way that it must be done that makes Him our substitute. Then we can live without doubt and live in peace and have no fear but that we will be raised in resurrection # 1.

Our hope must not be built on presumption but the full truth of the matter.

Too many are happy in presumption and will have lost all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Yes, the death of the 'old man' is supposed to be permanent. But this cannot take place until the second coming. When a believer is baptized, the body that comes out of the water is in fact the same body that went under, still with the same cravings. While the death of Christ was compressed into a few hours, the death of our 'old man' is stretched over a lifetime. That's why Paul says, "I die daily," and says, "put to death what is earthly in you..." Therefore, the death of the 'old man' could not satisfy the law's demand for death of the sinner. That's why we need to die with Him; it is His death that can satisfy the demands of the law.

My thoughts on this are still in a flux and have not yet crystalized.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Very true, IF He is your substitute you will not die the second death.

But the 'old man' DOES need to die the second death!!! Isn't that what your theology demands? Unless the 'old man' is dead, you cannot have perfect performance!

[Gibs]

Quote:

Very true, IF He is your substitute you will not die the second death.

But the 'old man' DOES need to die the second death!!! Isn't that what your theology demands? Unless the 'old man' is dead, you cannot have perfect performance!

Ha, Ha, Gee Gerry you missed just slightly the gist of what I presented.

The death of the old man NOW is how that you become a new man now in Christ and He in you. That is putting your carnal nature to death and allowing Him, His Divine Nature in, in it's place that now His Divine Nature is your way and your old way dead and gone. Just be careful to not resurrect the old devil again in you as many have done.

The old man dead now Gerry that you will not die the second and eternal death in the end. Jesus Christ in you is your insurance policy and strength to remain a new man and an overcomer.

Gerry He made us a beautiful and easy way to be victorious over Satan and all. His yoke isn't heavy, hard or galling but like accomplishment is a joy to live.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The death of the old man NOW is how that you become a new man now in Christ and He in you.

No, the death of the old man (according to the context) was when Christ died. Read it:

6 For we know that our old self (old man) was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Your old man died, where? In you? No, "in Christ". Our old life from Adam died in Christ. How? Because at the incarnation Christ assumed our fallen life.

For 30 + years Christ lived a perfect life in our fallen humanity. Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation. And then on the cross our humanity, indwelt with sin, died the 2nd death. That's the truth as it is in Christ.

You are only dead to sin by faith. Your nature remains with you until the day you die. If not then you are teaching the heresy of holy flesh.

[Robert]

Jesus is our substitute if we have surrendered all and trust and obey Him.

But you aren't obeying the law....Read Paul. Yes, you are growing (if you aren't legalistic), but you are still a sinner in the eyes of God's holy law.

Here's the thing, how can a sinless man, Christ, cover for me? He never sinned...not only that but righteousness can't be transferred: Ez 20:18 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

The law requires that I die. Christ's isn't the sinner....

[Robert]

The truth as it is in Christ

[Gibs]

Robert you must realize that there is a requirement for you to have Christ for your substitute. We are to come as we are to Him and surrender all to Him that He can be your Master or He can't help you. We can not serve two masters. When we are committing sin it is proof of another master we must put out that we can be victorious with the Greatest Master of ALL. Do you not think then He is not able to keep you from falling? Where is your faith? Let's pick it up and be victors.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Do you not think then He is not able to keep you from falling? Where is your faith? Let's pick it up and be victors.