Help Sabbath defense

[Asiyreh]

Guys I need a bit of help. My wife and I had a big fight yesterday over the pending baptism of our infant girl. Just a moment ago our local parish priest came to our home, to discuss this baptism and the wife promptly told him i'd gone over to the "dark side." If only she knew... sigh

Anyway we got to talking and he asked me a little about our church. So I explained the Sabbath commandment to him. We talked a little about this, he said his goodbyes and off he went looking slightly troubled. Now we're going to see him tomorrow and I just know he's going to fire both barrels at me once he's had a chance to research the theology.

So what i'm looking for is anything biblical that he's might attempt to use and our rebuttal for it.

We must have a good study already done on this. Can anyone point me in the general direction of a good document on our answers to sabbath problems. Please don't leave exposed here guys. If I can make this look good in front of my wife there's every chance I could pull her out of this false apostasy. If he makes me look like a fool then she's dead in the water. Oh an please pray for me that the holy spirit will be will me.

Thanks gusy

[Gail]

What about the 10 Commandments? Even in the Catholic bibles it reads the same as the Protestant or Jewish ones.

The issue then is whether you accept that the church has the authority to change God's law or not.

[JoeMo]

Asiyreh,

My heart goes out to you. I was the lone SDA in a traditional Italian Catholic family for years. Arguing the scripture never worked for me - it only made them mad. Most Catholics don't know the Bible; so your Biblical dissertation may only frustrate them. It was only when I presented a calm, accepting Spirit - showing my family the love of Christ and being a good example - that they began to soften their stance against me.

About 40 years ago, I had an extensive debate (lasted about 2 years) with a priest over things Catholics believed that weren't Biblical. First, he threatened me with hellfire and damnation. Next he explained to me how people much smarter than I am had studied the Bible much more deeply than I had; and who was I to question them. Finally, he told me that I could either accept Catholic tradition or I could accept the Bible - but I would never reconcile the two; and we dropped the argument.

Pray for wisdom, patience, and unconditional love for all involved; and pray that the Holy Spirit guide you. In the mean time:

Father God,

I thank you for the reverence that Asiyreh is showing for your Holy Day; and the love and concern he has for His family. Holy Spirit, give Him a loving and patient heart; and give Him the words to say that are the reason for His faith. If he is the only Bible his wife and this priest will ever "read", let Him be love, mercy, and wisdom. I pray this in Jesus' Name. Amen!

Blessings be with you, brother! God knows your heart. The love you show will be much more convincing than any "Laws" you could quote. Your arguments will not convert anyone. Your job is to plant the seed. It is the Holy Spirit's job to grow it into the full fruit.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[Asiyreh]

Whao thanks Joe that was beautiful. I understand what you're saying here. The guys at my Church keep saying the same thing to me.

Ok Prof. Veith does a good vid on this I'll just watch it again. But he's left out Romans 14 and someone else from another forum I debate in has just brought this problem up. Providence... I think so.

My pastor explained this to me a while ago but I can't quite remember the details.

Here's the scripture.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.Romans 14

Can someone just outline a good rebuttal for that.

Thanks guys for the help and I do understand what you're saying Joe. I'm not ignoring it. But I'm a very logical person and so's my wife.

So please please someone please just knock this one down for me or point me in the general direction of a good study.

[Asiyreh]

I think I've found something here guys.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/422042/Re_Romans_14_5_how_to_respond.html

[jasd]

>>My wife and I had a big fight yesterday over the pending baptism of our infant girl.<<

Sometimes, it is your responsibility to simply love the woman and accede, as it was she and not you who carried and nourished the infant in her womb those nine months, providing life for the child. Moreover, the mother-child bond is stronger than the father-child bond at this point. I'd say that the prerogatives were hers at this point - and yours later, yes? There is another time that domineerance will be apropos. There is sentience and then - there is sapience.

1 Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1 Cor 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Water, water everywhere and not even a drop - that wet the soles of their sandals...

Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]:

Seems that Writ indicates all who passed through the sea and who were under the cloud were baptized, yes? Any mention of any getting wet? No. Any children or babies with the COI when they passed through the sea or when they were under the cloud? But of course, yes.

Ipso facto, infant baptism.

So, where is the problem with an infant being baptized? That infant when grown may elect to be rebaptized into whatever .org he/she wishes, yes? In the meantime, that infant has received more than any of the 2-3 million who were baptized unto Moses - being actually baptized by water and into Jesus Christ. Seems like a win-win, yes?

Also, today's infant, whether baptized Catholic, Episcopalian, or Lutheran..., is become part of the Commonwealth of the Lord. It is promised to the Lord and is the Lord's, a member of the Great Assembly, much as the infant in the OT wilderness, being circumcised, became part of the Commonwealth of Israel.

[OzarkWoman]

What about the 10 Commandments? Even in the Catholic bibles it reads the same as the Protestant or Jewish ones.

I am sorry but the Catholic 10 Commandments are not the same as Protestants or the Jewish.

Catholic 10 Commandments

[Umfundize]

Here is the best: simply google www.adventistalternative.org and download the booklet The Fourth Dilemma (available in a number of languages) This is the new, revised version. Or get it the R&H version at any ABC. It was the Review & Herald best seller share-booklet in 2009.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Gail

What about the 10 Commandments? Even in the Catholic bibles it reads the same as the Protestant or Jewish ones.

I am sorry but the Catholic 10 Commandments are not the same as Protestants or the Jewish.

Catholic 10 Commandments

The Catholic Bible has the same 10 commandments. It's only when you read the Catholic catechism that you see the difference.

[Umfundize]

The booklet is easy to read and addresses the topics of Salvation, The Law, and the Sabbath. Dr Veith uses the Afrikaans version of this booklet as handouts at his meetings.

[Windsor]

Whao thanks Joe that was beautiful. I understand what you're saying here. The guys at my Church keep saying the same thing to me.

Ok Prof. Veith does a good vid on this I'll just watch it again. But he's left out Romans 14 and someone else from another forum I debate in has just brought this problem up. Providence... I think so.

My pastor explained this to me a while ago but I can't quite remember the details.

Here's the scripture.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.Romans 14

Can someone just outline a good rebuttal for that.

Thanks guys for the help and I do understand what you're saying Joe. I'm not ignoring it. But I'm a very logical person and so's my wife.

So please please someone please just knock this one down for me or point me in the general direction of a good study.

I don't want to get too off topic but I would be very interested in hearing how you came to the faith. I know we have Adventist missionaries in Ireland and that there are currently very few converts.

[Johnnboy]

This is only one objection that may be used.

The verse in Colossians 2:16, 17 is a point that many objectors to keeping the 7th-day Sabbath may bring up. Colossians 2:16, 17,--"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come;"

This verse is referring to the services of the old sanctuary which Moses instructed the Israelites to build after he was shown the pattern of things in the heavens (Hebrews 8:5). The Sabbath days referred to were the special days scattered among the feast days that are called "Sabbaths" in Leviticus 23, but being scheduled from the moon they came on different days of the week each year. But in the year when the feast days, such as the Passover were fulfilled by Christ's crucifixion, these "shadow" Sabbaths fell on 7th-day Sabbaths. In fact, that is what they were "shadows" of.

This text shows that they were not the 7th day Sabbath, which was the Sabbath of the Lord.

Leviticus 23:38, 39-"Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD....ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath."

The verse in Colossians 2 states that they were a "shadow of things to come;"

That means that these Sabbath days were prophesies of a future fulfillment of the feast days, when the events in the plan of salvation that they portrayed would really occur. These "shadow" Sabbaths would then overlay 7th day Sabbaths, just as at the time of the crucifixion of Christ, when the day after the Passover which was one of these "shadow" Sabbaths, actually occurred on the 7th-day Sabbath, then called an "high day" John 19:31. This is the day that Jesus rested in the tomb.

[Umfundize]

Johnnboy:

Check out The Fourth Dilemma. All those verses are properly exegeted and you will love every page!Tell me what you think. Thanks

[phkrause]

Will be for you and your family Aslyreh.

[Robert]

When you rest on the 7th day from what are you resting?

[Woody]

When you rest on the 7th day from what are you resting?

Hopefully - it's a rest from the world.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

When you rest on the 7th day from what are you resting?

Hopefully - it's a rest from the world.

I understand your meaning, but that's not the Biblical definition of we rest.

Let's take creation for example:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it set if apart, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Notice on the 7th-day God rested. Did He need a coffee break? Was He tired? No. His rest was eternal, until sin came into the world.

The point, though, is that God rested on the 7th-day because He was finished creating. He didn't rest on the 7th-day and then take up work on the 1st day of the week.

Why did He rest from His work of creation? Because that work was perfect - it was complete - it was sinless. Humanity was in the image and likeness of God.

[Robert]

I understand your meaning, but that's not the Biblical definition of (why) we rest.

Correction made...

[Saving Grace]

Asiyreh.

First defense is:

Genesis 2:3: And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

For whom did God blessed the 7th day, which is the Sabbath day and hallowed it?

For men! For Adam and Eve and their coming children.

It is ridiculous to think and belief that Sabbath is for the Jews only. Why God should blessed and sanctified a day and at the week of creation with the intention to spare it for 2,400 years long, till the day when there is a tribe or nation called Jews and give it to them to be their holy day? The Jews was sinful men, so, was it God intention to keep and give this day for the sinful men thousand years later after the week of creation? Was God hoping that the men he created in his likeness shall fall into sin?

There is no such thing! When God blessed and sanctified the 7th day, the Sabbath day, it was for Adam, Eve and their offspring, to be kept for eternity, without even having the slightest idea that this day is for the Jews one day.

And 4,000 years later. What did the Son of Man say?

Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

The Sabbath was made for man, since the week of creation, not for the Jews, this man is “Adam”. A man that God has created with his own hand. Yes, the Sabbath was for them, because they exist already.

Sabath is not for the goats or lions or snakes or birds that God had created at the day of creation, but for man. And there was a man created at the 6th day – Adam.

[Saving Grace]

second defense.

Now, if Adam and his children understood clearly the Sabbath was for them to be kept and sanctified, since God has given it to them, shall it be forgotten one day by his offspring?

Genesis 26:5: Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

When God says so about Abraham, was Abraham keeping the Sabbath day holy or not?? Of course he did, otherwise God will never says so.

Noah died when Abraham was 58 years old, surely Noah has taught Abraham about the law of God, and the Sabbath, because Noah had been taught also by his father and grand fathers. Enoch, Adam’s grandson live till Noah was 84 years old, so, surely he taught Noah about the law of God and the Sabbath, as he received the same from his grandfather Adam, who died when he was old enough.

Therefore, the law of God and Sabbath keeping was taught orally by the living legend to their sons and grand sons, till Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph.

But after Joseph death, hundreds of years have passed for the Jews that lived among the Egyptians people and pagan culture. Slowly they began to forget about the law of God, and the Sabbath, especially with the rise of a new, hard and cruel emperor. Therefore, God sent Moses, to gather the Israelites and brought them out of Egypt, in order they may return to the path of God, keeping his law, and his Sabbath day.

[Robert]

When God blessed and sanctified the 7th day, the Sabbath day, it was for Adam, Eve and their offspring.

But why do we rest? I can tell you what the law states:

Ex 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work,....

Why?

11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

So why do we rest?

Answer: Because God rested, but then again He never started working again. His work of creation was perfect - it was complete.

So what's the reason we rest? Because God rested.

Again, from what?

[Robert]

"The Sabbath is a sign" (EGW)

A sign is a symbol representing a truth. Baptism, for example, is a symbol. The act of baptism represents a truth, but in of itself it's a sign.

The same with the Sabbath. The day is a sign...it symbolizes a truth. Our resting from our works is symbolic. What does our resting symbolize?

[Robert]

So as not to distract from the intent of this topic I'll start another one.

[Saving Grace]

3rd defense.

Matthew 24

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

24 And Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, “See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

3 And as He sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the world?”

..................

15 “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand),

16 then let them that be in Judea flee unto the mountains.

..................

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When Jesus sat alone at a hill, his disciples came to Him asking when will it be happen the day he mentioned previously to them while still standing outside the temple, and the sign of his coming.

Jesus has foretold them that "See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

And he answered when it will happen: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place."

37 years after his ascension what he had foretold came to happen. Under Gen. Titus, Rome overtake Jerusalem and destroy the temple.

Now, hear what Jesus said to his disciples, if this day comes:

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.

If He has left this world 37 years before the day comes, as the temple was destroyed at AD. 70, then why did He say to His disciples alone without anyone of the Jews around, that they should pray for their safety, hopefully this day will not come on winter time or on Sabbath day?

Because if they must flee at winter time, their life will be difficult and hard, and if this day comes at Sabbath day while they all are in the temple, they die easily.

What does this mean to us?

That Jesus had foretold us, Sabbath will still be kept by His disciples.

The same would be told by His disciples to theirs, and so on, till the day comes.

If the day comes at AD 2,100, doesn't it mean that till now, all Christ disciples are still keeping the Sabbath holy and praying for their safety?

Long after His ascension, His disciples never had in their mind that Sabbath was nailed to His cross.

So why should you?

[Saving Grace]

4th defense.

Was Paul a Sabbath keeper? Yes. Acts 13:27, 42, 44; 16: 13; 17:2; 18:4.

As he knew what Jesus has foretold the other disciples about the temple even without his presence.

Did Paul abolish the Sabbath law?

How dare he!

Was Paul a law keeper? Yes, sure he was. Romans 2:13 - For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Because of his faith in Christ, did Paul abolish the law?

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yea, we establish the law.

Paul knew that keeping the law gave life - Galatians 3:12 - And the law is not of faith, but “The man who doeth them shall live in them.” because breaking it the wage is death (1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23).

Could Paul keep the law perfectly?

As a Pharisee he has kept the law perfectly to the letter. Philippians 3:6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness before the law, blameless.

More over now, as Christ disciples, filled with the Holy Spirit, what he lacked before, was fulfilled now.

Romans 8:4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Galatians 5:16 - This I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world,14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So, if he knew Sabbath must be kept according to Jesus order to the disciples, and that the law is eternal and gave life to whom who keep it and death to whom who break it, and he knew that through faith and the work of the Spirit he might live sinless by keeping the law perfectly, which he has done previously in his former life as a Pharisee lack of the Spirit, then what is the reason to abolish the law and the Sabbath?

He never do that and not having the slightest idea of it.

People misjudge and misinterpret his writings.