A picture is worth a thousand words .....

[Woody]

http://sdacaricatures.blogspot.com/2012/07/womens-ordination.html

[olger]

Inappropriate.

g

[Woody]

I suppose you found Pastor's Doug's discussion of semen to be more to your liking?

[phkrause]

Inappropriate.

g

I agree + as the heading or right under the heading states, in that article, "exaggerating the contours of Adventism."

[phkrause]

As has been mentioned on a number of occasions by many, taking his remarks out of context, doesn't make anyone right.

[Naomi]

Inappropriate.

g

[olger]

As has been mentioned on a number of occasions by many, taking his remarks out of context, doesn't make anyone right.

Agreed.

[teresaq]

Appropriate and inappropriate is in the eyes of the beholders.

Just as some see nothing wrong with the "semen" comment, in context below,

Quote:

The thing we are really addressing our attention to today is the issue of women being ordained as pastors and elders. And what does the Bible say about that specific issue. Well as it’s said in that Virginia Slim’s slogan, “The times they are a changing, you’ve come a long way baby.” For instance in 1978, 19% of seminary students, you know seminary is where people study for ministry, where they study theology - they were women. By the way, the word seminary comes from the same word as semen. So it’s interesting that you’ve got so many women in the seminary studying for – that’s just where the root of the word is. 19 percent in 1978 were women. In 1994 slightly over 30 percent, so it went from 19 to 30 percent. Today a little over 50 percent, 51 percent of those that are in seminary studying for full-time ministry are women. And that’s among the protestant denominations. Of course the Catholics and some of the Orthodox churches have taken a very hard stance on that so it’s not that big an issue there.

I found this statement irrelevant, insulting, degrading, disgusting, contemptuous and the list goes on.

The fact that the "powers" that be did not take him to task for such unChristlike and unbecoming behavior really worries me.

But as I said, it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

[Woody]

Quote:

I found this statement irrelevant, insulting, degrading, disgusting, contemptuous and the list goes on.

The fact that the "powers" that be did not take him to task for such unChristlike and unbecoming behavior really worries me.

Thank you for the context. IT is now there for all to see. And I agree with your thoughts regarding the need for him to be disciplined for his unChristlike comments.

They are totally uncalled for and inappropriate for any sermon in a Seventh day Adventist Church.

[jasd]

>>Today a little over 50 percent, 51 percent of those that are in seminary studying for full-time ministry are women.<<

Gd entereth into all matters. Question obtains, why?--and why now?

Is it because man has burned-out?--or is it that we are to look for miracles and manifestations to accompany a new infusion of Gd and His word? A latter rain?

Writ informs that Gd uses miracles to validate new beginnings and new knowledge. Miracles testify to Gd-inspired sea changes.

[jasd]

>>A picture is worth a thousand words<<

Inappropriately, funny... seventy times a thousand words, funny. [/respectfully] :)

[jasd]

>>Miracles testify to Gd-inspired sea changes.<<

Speaking of sea changes..., I reiterate: why not bypass simple ordination of women? I mean, ordination derives from the Latin 'ordinare' which means to rank, to establish hierarchy. Not a good prescription.

Go Directly to Saint. Saint your women ministers. It's Biblical; whereas, ordination is Catholic.

Besides, then the Pauline chauvinists can retain their integrity and remain against WO. Leave ordination to them.

Saint your women who minister in the Gospel.

[Woody]

Quote:

Saint your women who minister in the Gospel.

Good Suggestion

[teresaq]

Would you like the transcript, Woody? For your own reference? Anyone else?

[jasd]

If it doesn't eat too many gigs - post it here for a few days - that those interested may cut and paste to their own hard drives, at which time you could have it deleted.

Just a thought... :)

[olger]

The root word of seminary is seed, according to Merriam Webster. Just looked it up.

"Origin of SEMINARY

Middle English, seedbed, nursery, from Latin seminarium, from semin-, semen seed

First Known Use: 1542"

I don't know that I would have spent much time on this fact, but it's true. Relax.

the G

[monty]

Or could it be a whole new wave of false "miracles and manifestations" is on the horizion?

[teresaq]

http://www.atoday.com/content/doug-batchelor-preaches-against-women-pastors

Women Pastors: A Biblical Perspective Feb 6, 2010, Doug Batchelor

I’d like for you to pray that the Lord will take charge of this service today. And that the truth will be very clear in what is presented. And that it will be his truth, also pray that you, pray for me that I can present it, that this is a… what’s the word for it? A volatile subject. I want to generate more light than heat. Not everybody here I’m sure is going to agree with my understanding and my interpretation of these passages we are going to consider. I want you all to be good anyway. Ok? You can disagree, don’t be disagreeable. Our message today is on the subject of women pastors, a biblical perspective. I’m sure the people on both sides of this would like to believe that their perspective is the biblical perspective, but I’m going to make my best case today and do pray for me as I share because I’m so passionate about this that I want to do it in a…way that will appeal to your minds more than your emotions. And we want to explore what does the Word of God say on this subject, Amen?

Probably the first thing that we need to do is start at the beginning; that’s always a good place to start. Everybody in this room, all the people anyway, you fall into one of two categories. You are a boy or a girl. You are a man or a woman. And it’s been that way since the beginning. And so this is something that is very applicable to everybody here one way or another. If we go back into the book of Genesis, you notice right away that the first woman came from man. Matter of fact, some argue that’s where the word woman comes from—from the womb of man. Now there’s another group that believes it’s a corruption of the word “wifman” meaning the wife of man. But God named Adam. God brought Adam’s wife from his side. Adam named Eve. Adam was looking among all the creatures, he noticed they all had their pairs, but there was something missing. So woman came to be the help mate for man to really be the completeness of God’s creation of man in his own image. Both man and woman are made in the image of God. But you see in the beginning, right after the temptation and sin entered our world that trouble began, when woman wandered from man’s side and then, she instead of listening to the clear instructions she had received from the Lord and from her husband not to take from that forbidden tree, she independently made a different decision. A new freedom, new power, was being offered to her by the devil; he said, “Don’t listen to what God said. Don’t listen to what your husband said. They’re hiding something from you. You listen to what I say and you will have enhanced experience.”

And so she did. Then she brings it to her husband and offers it to him and man now [defers] to his wife; instead of leading, he submits. And he takes her advice and all the problems that you see in the world today, both in our relationships and in the world, spring from this interruption of God’s design for the relationship between God and man and woman. And as a result of this—you can read about this by the way in the book Patriarchs and Prophets, page 53 and 54; “The angels had cautioned Eve to beware of separating herself from her husband while occupied in their daily labor in the garden. With him she would be in less danger from temptation than if she were alone. But absorbed in her pleasing task she unconsciously wandered from his side. Sin came into our world as a result of man neglecting and women disregarding the husband’s leadership role.” And then a curse was pronounced. And you read this in Genesis chapter 3 verse 16, I'll probably also add verse 17—it said, “To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In pain you’ll bring forth children.” And it goes on to say “Your desire shall be to your husband. He will rule over thee.” Now through the ages, people—mostly those who have a moral liberal bias have tried to find some other way of saying that. But that word there means just what it says. It’s from the word “mashal” in Hebrew and it means, definition: according to Strong; to rule, to have dominion, to govern, to reign, to have power. God had to establish in the very beginning because the devil was going to be trying to destroy the family that there needed to be authority in the family. And so the Lord went back to his original design; man was created first. So things have changed. Oh by the way, you read on here in Genesis chapter 3 verse 17 “And then to Adam he says, because you have heeded the voice of your wife,” as opposed to the voice of God, “and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you saying you shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life.”

And so we have seen the result of that now over time. Now all of history has been altered in the last 60, 50 years. Up until the feminist movement became very prominent for the first 1900 years, 2000 years of church history, it was understood that sort of the final authority within the church was to rest solely with husbands and the men pastors.

But things have changed. Because there was a lot of abuse of that authority, wherever there is power it will be misused. Men are naturally, anatomically bigger. They’re more muscular.

That’s why you find divisions in the men and women Olympic events. You don’t ever see the women weight lifters competing against the men weight lifters. And a number of other events you’ll notice the same thing. Because of that added strength there, that has often been abused. And certain rights women should have had, they have been denied. And so any movement that may begin with certain just principles, as it pushes towards reaching the right position, the pendulum often swings too far. Sometimes its like trying to stop a battleship on a dime. It’s very difficult to do. It often overshoots its mark.

And this happened with the feminist movement, where it went way beyond just and what I support which was of course voting rights, equal pay for equal work and protection against discrimination. And sexual intimidation in the work place. You know I’ve got a picture here I’m going to put up on the

screen. I want you to notice, this is a picture from New York City. It’s small, I'm sorry the resolution is small. And this is a parade in New York City. It is what we used to call Women’s Lib and it was the Women’s Movement, and it was the Feminist movement. It’s gone under several labels. But in that

picture you may barely see there’s a lady dressed in sort of a Dolly Parton, not Dolly Parton - Dolly Madison, hahaha, I’m getting my American heroes mixed up. Just to the right of the one on the right in this parade was my mother. My mother was a leader in the Women’s Lib, Feminist movement in New York City. Matter of fact in this next picture here you’ll see that’s the

dress that mom wore on that day and that charming little creature by her side is me. And I’m not talking about the dog—he’s in the middle. But my mother did a television program in Canada, and part of it, and gave her a dress like this and she kept the dress. And she marched down the streets in New York City wearing this. And the reason I’m telling you this, my step mother for 30 years, Bekina Batchelor - some of you remember the Virginia Slims commercial for the cigarettes. Their slogan - “you’ve come a long way baby.” Betty modeled for those commercials. And so I grew up just immersed in the thinking of the feminist movement. My mother was a leader

in that movement in New York City. And she finally left and in her words, this is what she said, my mom was for equal pay and equal rights and some of the discrimination issues and many just things. But she came home exasperated, she said, “I can’t be part of this anymore.” I still remember I was only about twelve years old but I remember her saying, she said, “Most of

them are angry lesbians that want to be men.”

[You] can take whatever you want - I’m just telling what my mother said. And she was part of it. And so there has been a lot of pushing that’s gone on in that movement that has other

agendas. Part of it is to de-masculate the men in our culture. And you can see that reflected in a lot of the advertising and the programming and it has not been without effect. I believe that men should be men and I believe that God has called men to lead. And I think what you’re seeing in the church has been

a reflection of what’s been happening in our culture. Where because there has been a vacuum of leadership among the men both in society and in the church. That wherever there is a vacuum of leadership something will flow in and take its place. And women have been flowing in to fill the vacuum. Now

that has led beyond what the Bible, I believe, teaches us what’s appropriate. I believe that there’s a broad spectrum, there is a kaleidoscope of different ways that all men and women can minister. The thing we are really addressing our attention to today is the issue of women being ordained as pastors and elders. And what does the Bible say about that specific issue. Well as it’s said in that Virginia Slim’s slogan, “The times they are a changing, you’ve come a long way baby.” For instance in 1978, 19% of seminary students, you know seminary is where people study for ministry, where they study theology - they were women. By the way, the word seminary comes from the same word as semen. So it’s interesting that you’ve got so many women in the seminary studying for – that’s just where the root of the word is. 19 percent in 1978 were women. In 1994 slightly over 30 percent, so it went from 19 to 30 percent. Today a little over 50 percent, 51 percent of those that are in seminary studying for full-time ministry are women. And that’s among the protestant denominations.

Of course the Catholics and some of the Orthodox churches have taken a very hard stance on that so it’s not that big an issue there. The big question is— this trend—is it because the church suddenly woke up after 1900 years and said, ‘you know we have been holding women back. And women really should have been pastors all along the way, right alongside of men, pastoring

congregations?’And the light finally dawned because people started studying the Bible and they said ‘how have we missed all these scriptures for the last 1900 years?’ Or is it the pressure of culture, people’s fear of being accused of being chauvinistic and rigid and unbending and socially backwards and primitive. Matter of fact if you were to say what percentage is it new revelation from the Bible and what percentage is social cultural pressure; I would tell you, I’d submit 100% of it—of that change has been driven by everything other than a new epiphany, other than what the scripture has to say. I believe that we have been badgered and intimidated so that we are not really going by what does the Bible say. Matter of fact in the Seventh-day Adventist Church if you trace the history a little bit, I am sorry to say a lot of those changes and of course in North America, not so much in other parts of the world now, women are being ordained. They call it commissioned but it’s really the same thing as being ordained as pastors. And it’s… you know you can call it commissioned but in every other way it’s the same as ordination with all the rights, privileges. It’s like Abraham Lincoln used to say, ‘

you can call a dog’s tail a leg, but it’s still a tail.’ And so just changing the label of something doesn’t change the definition of it. And what they have done is they have tried to pacify people who read the Bible and say only men should be ordained as pastors and say well we’re not ordaining women pastors - were commissioning them as pastors. That’s the same thing. And in every other way—the authority, they’re baptizing, they’re leading out in communion services, they’re fulfilling all the sacred offices that God originally said should be reserved for the man. And this is a dangerous subject for me to share. But you know I just figure someone's gotta say

something and if I perish, I perish. I’ve been here a long time anyway. And I know it’s not very popular in our culture to say these things. Kind of like wearing a mink coat to a PETA convention. But someone needs to say it. First of all men and women are different. And I'm not just talking about the obvious outward plumbing, it’s the inner wiring. And I'm not saying that I know and understand what all those differences are. And even if we do understand the differences and don’t understand the differences that’s not the

reason to obey the Word of God. Even if we don’t understand, the Word of God is the Word of God. Amen? Men and women are different in many ways. One, we are different in the way that we relate and understand relationships. Women tend to communicate more effectively then men. And part of that is because the left hemisphere of their brain and the right hemisphere are connected with four times as many neurons as with men. So they’ve got their logical and task oriented part communicating with their relational and emotional part as they process information. And which often causes problems in marriages because men will want to address a specific

problem in a discussion and all of a sudden in the discussion there’s this quantum leap to something that happened three weeks ago.

And you know you’re talking about changing the oil and all of a sudden she’s talking about the children’s education and you’re going wait a second how’d we get on that subject. And so all the wires go back and forth. But men have more neurons in their brain, and some of that is because we have more mass and that may mean more nerve endings. But you know, you should also know…and I

know this isn’t gonna get me reelected. According to the British Journal of Psychology, why women’s brains communicate better right to left, men on an average score five points higher on an IQ test. Argue with the people at the British Journal of Psychology that came up with that. Obviously women have less muscle mass than men do. Some of the other differences are the reaction to stress. Men tend to have a fight or flight response. Women often look for strategies in dealing with these kinds of stresses. And they want to tend and

befriend. Now that’s good in relationships. You know if you’re in a board meeting it’s nice to have someone say let talk through this. If you’re on a battlefield, you don’t want the tend and befriend attitude. You want the either attack or retreat, fight or flight attitude. And that’s why I think on combat men are better suited for that. Language - the two sections of the brain women excel. I don’t have time to read all these or I won’t have time for anything else. Pain—men and women perceive pain differently. Men will deny their pain longer than women will. In their spatial ability, men typically have stronger spatial abilities in being able to mentally represent a shape and its dynamics, where women typically struggle in this area. Medical experts have discovered that women have a thicker parietal region of the brain which hinders the ability to mentally rotate objects in their brain in the aspect of spatial abilities. So men can think better in 3D. These are generalizations you realize as they go through this. Susceptibility to disorders: Because of the way that men and women use the two hemispheres of their brain there are some different disorders they are more exposed to. Men are more apt to have dyslexia and other language problems. Women on the other hand are more susceptible to mood disorders such as depression and anxiety. And it goes on. There’s quite a few differences. No we are not exactly the same. We’re different creatures in many respects. And it’s important to recognize that as we approach this subject that those who are clamoring and campaigning to say that there shouldn’t be any difference in the roles of men and women in the church - we are different. We are gifted differently and God has said there should be a different.

What about the verse, Pastor Doug, that said, “We are all one in Christ.” I believe that. Paul said this… Galatians chapter 3 verse 28, and those who campaign in favor of ordaining women, as pastors love to quote this verse, but they want to choke and muzzle Paul in everything else he says. So you’ve got to read all of it. But this I believe is often used, and I believe it entirely. In Christ, Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free; there is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” And that’s just saying economically, ethnically… in the genders these distinctions have no bearing on salvation. You know amongst some of the pagans, they thought only the men would be saved and the women would only be saved by virtue of being linked with a man. But with Christ men and women had equal access, slave or free, didn’t matter what your gender or your ethnicity was - everybody could approach Christ directly. You didn’t need to go through a priest anymore. That’s what Paul is telling us. So you’ve got to mitigate this statement of Paul with everything else he says and you see what you think.

So now as we dive into this, I’m going to have a lot of scriptures on the screen. By what criteria will we decide if women should be ordained as pastors and elders. Should we say, can women preach? Well first of all can they? Very effectively. My mother, oh bless her heart, if she could have ever been converted, she would have been a great communicator in that area. Can women teach? Sure they can. Can they chair a board meeting? Can they give you a Bible study? Can they do evangelism? Yes, absolutely. Can they be prophets? Spirit filled? Prophets of God? So are we gonna ask ourselves what is increasingly popular? Is that going to be the determining argument? Or, what does the Bible say? I believe it is easier to support the truth—that God has designed only men should be ordained as pastors and elders from the New Testament, than to support the Sabbath. And it’s easy to support the Sabbath. It’s even easier to support this principle. I will not be able to share with you today all of the scriptures. Those who come to the conclusion that there is not a distinction made in the Bible all the way from Adam to Revelation in the roles of men and women in the church have to go through the most phenomenal mind bending gymnastic to escape the plain truth, that it’s incomprehensible to me. But you know if you tell people a lie often enough they’ll believe just about anything. And so this is a truth that is being sidelined and ignored. And frankly we’re ridiculed by some of our other protestant friends that want to take a more biblical approach to this and I’m embarrassed. That’s one reason I feel passionate about this today. I’ve got friends in other churches. I’ve got friends who are in the Southern Baptist

church and others, and they say you know Pastor Doug, you know you guys have a pretty strong argument on the Sabbath, but I can’t understand why in the Adventist Church you are now ordaining women as pastors. And you know I have to hang my head and say I can’t understand it either.

Lets looks at some of the verses. First of all, God establishes, and I’m using mostly New Testament because you know what the argument is: people say - Old Testament has old tradition. New Testament is what we need to go by now. [To] understand this order in the family, turn to Colossians 3 verse 18 to begin with. Colossians 3 verse 18 to 20. I will have it on the screen but I do appreciate hearing the rustle of the Bible pages, you might want to mark some of these. “Wives submit to your own husbands.” [Role playing] Well obviously that’s a bad translation. Well that’s what people say! And you wouldn’t believe [the] incredible lengths people go to, they try to carve up the language every way they can and twist these words in the original, say it couldn’t possibly mean that. “Wives submit to your own husbands as fitting in the lord. Husbands love your wives do not be bitter toward them. Children obey your parents in all things for this well pleasing to the Lord.” And so he’s alluding to the Ten Commandments in this very simple passage—that

wives were to submit to their husbands. You know where it says honor your father and mother, it always starts with the father first—gives deference to the father first. In the Hebrew mind, the father was the sun in the family the mother was the moon. That was reflecting the light of the father. The father was the priest leader in the family, that God communicated through the priest, to the family. He communicates through the mother too, but she was supposed to be reflecting that light. And if you want a scripture on that,

remember when Joseph had a dream? And the dream was that the sun and the moon and the twelve stars were bowing down to him. Later his father interpreted that dream. He says “what are you saying that your mother and I and your brothers?” So the father was the sun and the mother was the moon. See what I’m saying? So you’ll see there is this order. 1 Corinthians 11:13 - I’m just jumping from one to the other. By the way, it says that this is well pleasing to the Lord. That would stand or reason that when we don’t obey that it is not pleasing to the Lord. Is that simple logic? 1 Corinthians 11:3, “But I would have you know that the head of every man is

Christ.” Any problems with that so far? “And the head of every woman is the man.” Obviously it must say something else in the Greek.

These are really plain statements. And the head of Christ is God! You know not only are we understanding from these verses that there is an order of authority in the family but there is an order of authority with God! And so for us to really dispute this truth is saying that we think that we deserve a better relationship or a different relationship than the Father, the Son and the Spirit. That we’re somehow [saying]—oh Jesus we realize you might submit to the authority of God the Father, but not down here on earth. Don’t ask us to do that. You can be God up to a point. But in the trinity, God the father, the Son and the Spirit, you see an order of authority. I had a lot of verses on that. I’ve got a whole book on the trinity where you can read about. And we approach this subject reverently because you know when you talk about God you are on holy ground. 1 Corinthians 3: 23 says, “And you are Christ and Christ is God’s.” This is a short verse for you. While you’re turning to Titus next, go to Titus chapter 2:4, we will read verse 5 also. [it’s] still talking about order in the Christian family. “And that they admonish the young women to love their husbands.” And so we have a command for husbands to love their wives and we’ve got a command for women to love their husbands. By the way, there’s more commands in the Bible for husbands to love their wives and I think this is the only commandment for wives to love their husbands because it’s easier for women to love, than men. That’s how I understand that. [reading the verse] “That you admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God may not be blasphemed.” I don’t know if any of you remember the old wedding vows, I haven’t heard one, I don’t know if I've ever heard one since I've been a pastor but you read them from about 50 years ago and it said something like… the women would say “to love, honor and obey” in their vows to the husband. Because they sprang from this Christian truth that was 1900 years old.

Jump with me now to Ephesians 5: 22 - this is Paul. This is the one who said we are all one in Christ, same guy. Some will say well he was off his medication those days. That just doesn’t really matter. Paul was being influenced by the traditions of the culture. So we’re not supposed to take these verses seriously. What’s gonna happen to your Bible? How are you gonna chop up your scriptures if you start picking and choosing what passages and commands you think the writers were under some imbalanced influence of the cultures of the day. Ephesians 5:22-25: “Wives submit yourselves to your own husbands as unto the Lord.” Now I cleared permission to preach all this with Karen before I got up here, I just want you to know that. “Submit yourselves unto your husbands as unto the lord. For

the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.” That comes out the same way doesn’t matter what translation you pick up. “The husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church. And he is the savior of the body. Christ the savior of the body of Christ, which is the church. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their husbands in everything.” Somebody snuck this into the Bible, is that really in the New Testament? Well explain what that really means Pastor Doug. I think it means what it says! If you spend too long in plainly reading the Bible, pretty soon it’s not going to mean what it says anymore. That means there ought to be.. Now, how much does Jesus love the church? How patient and kind and gentle is he with the church? That’s how husbands should love their wives. It’s a lot easier for wives to submit to a husband like that. And just because husbands aren’t loving their wives the way that Christ loves the church doesn’t mean that wives then throw out the scripture. Because when you look at any kind of wrong or inconsistency in the church or in the culture, don’t ever use that as an excuse to justify some

other bad behavior. I’ve heard people say there’s nothing wrong with Christians decking themselves with jewelry, I’ve seen the hubcaps on those Christian cars. Well maybe their hubcaps are a little too flamboyant. You don’t use that to justify the other! You know I hear all these really bizarre arguments, well they’re doing this, so this must be okay. You’re right, the men are not acting like men, the husbands are not loving the way they ought to love and the wives are not submitting the way the Bible says the should.

We ought to all be doing all that God commands us to do. Makes it a lot easier on the families. Notice though, it says here that Jesus is making a comparison between the family relationship, now don’t miss this because I’m going to make a jump here. Jump with me - I've been talking about the order in the family, now we are going to transition to the church. Because the church is an extension of the family. You can’t have God being one person in the family with a certain order where men are the priest leaders in the family, then once they walk into the church, now the woman is the priest leader. His wife is now fulfilling that role. The church is an extension of the family. Abraham was the priest leader in his family, is that right? How many were in his family. Well it starts with 300 soldiers. 318. He had probably over a thousand in his family. That’s bigger than our church isn't it? And he was the patriarch, he was the priest. He would intercede, he offered the sacrifices. This is a role that is purely, absolutely, 100 percent a male role all through the Bible. Why did God make a distinction in the offering? Sometimes he said this is ones to be a male lamb and this ones to be a female goat. And why would he even specify genders of these creatures that were types, if gender didn't mean anything? It does mean something. Why does he trace the genealogy of Jesus both on Mary's side and on Joseph's side through the men? There’s a reason for that. That’s because that’s the culture back then. They were patriarchal, they were primitive. I mean after all they had too many wives. God didn't support that. God did not support this dominant picture of men. They had slaves back then too. So I mean if you’re going to support slavery then…and they lumped this truth in the New Testament with the inconsistencies, you see, it was never part of God’s plan that a man had more than one wife. Never. Did he wink at those time of ignorance? Absolutely. Was it ever part of God’s plan that one man should own another man? Slavery? No. God made laws about those things to protect the people, he winked at their ignorance because of the hardness of their hearts, he made certain provisions. But you don’t find the relationship with the roles in family falling into that category. It goes back to the garden of Eden. And that’s where Paul references it when he uses these truths. Go to 1 Peter chapter 3,

verse 1 and I'll read verse 2. “Wives likewise, be submissive to your own husbands. That even if some do not obey the word they may without the word be won by the conduct, behavior, the conversation of the wives. When they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.” I’m going to jump to verse 5. “For in this manner in former times, the holy women who trusted in God also adorned themselves, being submissive to their own husbands.” As Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord. Now I'm not going to ask Karen to call me Lord on the way home. But Peter is just using it—he is not commanding that the wives all call their husbands Lord. And husbands don’t, now, abuse this sermon. It’s the worst thing you could do. You think you got it bad now, just wait. But Peter’s using this as an example of how she respected her husband. Whose daughters you are—you are the daughters of Sara, who called her husband Lord. “If you do what is good and you are not afraid with any terror.” And he goes on and notice this, I didn't want to stop

early…“husbands likewise dwell with them with understanding.” That’s a miracle right there, when we can understand them. But it says “dwell with them with understanding giving honor to the wife as the weaker vessel.” It’s a lot easier to submit when you are honored. You know the Bible says honor your Lord. The Bible says honor your father and mother. The Bible says husbands honor your wives. And so husbands are to protect their families and honor and cherish their wives…as the weaker vessel, and being heirs together of the grace of life. Where are we one? Men and women, slave and free, Greek and Jew. We are heirs together of salvation. So you notice that Peter helps explain what Paul meant because he says ‘oh yeah that oneness that Paul was talking about? That means we’re heirs together. But Peter says it right after he says ‘wives should be submissive to their husbands.’ You with me? Is this still making sense so far?

Alright, what about in the church now? We are going to transition. 1 Timothy chapter 2 vs. 11: “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” This is the same one who wrote Galatians. He was neither male nor female, he wrote this too. Sounds like the same person. For Adam, now what does he, where does Paul go for support? Where does Paul go for Biblical support for this principle? He goes to the customs of the day. He goes to pagan traditions and morays. Is that where he goes? No, he goes to the Bible. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in child bearing if they continue in faith and holiness with self control. Now we have already read this but I just wanted to remind you it said. “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.” Before I comment on that, I'm going to read two other verses and I'll talk about what does that mean about

women learning in silence in the church. That could be quickly misunderstood if we’re not careful. Go to 1 Timothy chapter 3 verse 2.

Same book, he is still talking about similar issues. “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.” Now what is a bishop? The word bishop is “episcopos.” It means a superintendent, a Christian officer generally in charge of a church, an overseer, a shepherd. Now let the Bible explain itself. If you look for instance in 1 Peter 2: 25, Peter says, “For you were as sheep going astray, but you have now returned to the shepherd and bishop episcopos”— same exact word “of your souls.” So the bishops were the

shepherds, they were the pastors, they were the leaders of the flocks. Is that clear? And it says, they should be husbands of one wife. Now some have wondered, well what does that mean? Does that mean if they have ever been married before and if their wife died or they were divorced, that they could never be bishop? They still had polygamy back then, they’re talking about to not have multiple wives. Because they still even had that in some of the Roman Empire. “Husbands of one wife,” there’s support for that. “Temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous” notice, “one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence. For if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God? “ Do you see Paul making a connection between the family, the house and the church. There is no break there. Our churches are an extension of our family, aren’t they? And

by the way, as goes the family so goes the church. And as goes the church so goes the country. Every government is built on the morals of its people. And when they lose their morals, the country loses its heading. One more verse and then we’ll talk. You’re allowed to disagree, just don’t be disagreeable.

One more verse before we talk about the teaching part. 1 Corinthians 14: 34-- Paul again speaking here: “Let the women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive as also says the law.” Now the five books of Moses were called the law. Paul is referring back again to Genesis. What does he mean now, does he mean, let the nuts speak in the churches? Does he mean they can’t lean over and ask a question? Does it mean they can teach even women in a church? Does it mean they can’t teach children? What does this mean? I’m going to read from Adam Clark’s commentary. Adam Clark was sort of the apostle Peter of the Wesley movement. He is a brilliant commentator. He said, “It’s evident from the context, the apostle refers here to asking questions and what we call dictating in the assemblies. All the apostle opposes here their questioning, their fault finding, their disputing, together with the attempts to usurp authority over the man.” Now keep in mind right across from Corinth was a city called Delphi.

Have you ever heard of the oracle of Delphi? The principle religious leader in the oracle of Delphi was a priestess. That would be dictating, supposedly God spoke to her and she was dictating to the people. She used these unintelligible utterances and then either another priestess or priest would then translate these, and I’m not going to go down the road with how that’s connected with some of the modern uses of tongues today. But you have to contextualize what is Paul saying here about “suffer them not to teach?” He’s saying all these converts in Corinth came from the Roman Empire. They were influenced by the Greek and the Roman religion. They were bringing those ideas into the church. And the women were taking the authority to teach the other men in the capacity of pastor. And so in that context, Paul is saying, tell them to be quiet. They’re not supposed to be teaching—meaning in the capacity of a pastor. How do you know that? Do we have examples in the Bible of God speaking through women and teaching through women? Do we have prophetesses in the bible? I can name them all, you got Hulda, Debra, Anne in the New Testament, you’ve got the four daughters of Philip in the New Testament, which did prophesy. Matter of fact, in 1 Corinthians 14, same book, Paul talks about when the women prophesy, they’re to cover their heads. I’m not even going to go into the head covering part, now because, that’s another whole bucket of worms. But I just want to illustrate that he talks about them prophesying in public and in church and praying. So obviously they were doing that and he is not condemning them in that capacity. Let me see if I could explain that. The ultimate authority biblically,

for God’s people, from Adam to the present day, has been that men are to be the priest leaders in the family and in the church. They are to be ordained. What that means is, God has designed in his order of things, doesn't matter how popular it is, or what the world says, it’s what the word says—that men should have the authority to be the spiritual guides, the leaders in family. And a lot of families fall apart, because the women lead out spiritually and bless their hearts for doing it. And I'm glad they do it in that vacuum. You can say, pastor Doug, I know a lady pastor. By the way I’ve got several friends who are lady pastors. They are probably going to get a copy of this and I love them, known them for years, good friends, respect them, but I’ve got a problem with what the Bible says and what the church is doing. And that is my final allegiance, is to the Word of God. And others are going to say, but Pastor Doug, there is this church over here that is pastored by a woman and obviously the spirit is using her, and how can you say that is not of God. I

wouldn't say that god isn't blessing. If heaven forbid anything to Karen, and I had to raise my boys the rest of the way, I would have to do a lot of things that Karen is doing. But I'll tell you one thing I would never do—I would never tell my boys to call me mom. And the Lord might bless a thousand different ways, doesn’t God send his blessing…When David had too many wives did, God still bless King David? So someone might say, that proves it’s okay to have a hundred wives because God blessed the kingdom under Solomon.

You can have 300 wives and 700 concubines because obviously God blessed the kingdom under Solomon, so it must be okay. God blesses because he’s good. And so sometimes God winks at our ignorance and he blesses. And so I am not questioning that. He also knows that people are so hungry that God will use a variety of means to feed people. But it still may not be his ideal will according to scripture. You see what I am saying? And so I’m not going to argue with all the anecdotal experience you've had or the evidence you might see about women who are effective teachers or preachers. We are really talking about what does the Bible say. Let’s go on here. Popular arguments--what do people say? Paul was antiwoman. Obviously, you never hear about Mrs. Paul do you? He didn’t even get married. He was just a woman hater. That’s what some people say when they come to these verses. You can’t pay attention to Paul when he talks about the role of women, because what did he possibly know, he wasn't even married. I mean Paul said ‘you’re better off being like me, being unmarried.’ You know Paul says that somewhere. And they take that out of context. And some people say Paul was a woman hater so don’t…it doesn’t mean what it says. Of course he wrote half of the New Testament so you’re gonna really have a thin New Testament if you take that approach. Some of the other arguments that some people have are [that] theses statements were added later by chauvinistic editors. Oh, they’re going to go down the road, saying I’m going to pick and choose what parts of the Bible I think that some conspiracy got ahold of and they inserted their favorite thoughts. Well your Bible is going to be obliterated if you do that. You’re not going to know what’s true anymore. Or that Peter, Paul and Jesus were going along with oppressive traditions of the day. That’s another argument, have you heard that? They were following the pattern from the Garden of Eden, all the way up to the present day. It’s very clear, now, without a doubt somebody is going to say, Pastor Doug - what about Ellen G. White? And here we are in a Seventh-day Adventist Church. And one of the prominent founders in the Seventh-day Adventist Church was Ellen White. Not the only one. I believe

Joseph Bates had a pretty primary role, as did James White. And Ellen White was a prophetess. She was a teacher. I think Ellen White is a pretty powerful support of everything I’m saying today. How many books did she write? 50? 5 million words? Something like that, in the millions. Over 70 years of communicating, teaching, writing, dreams, visions, prophecy. Not one time does she say women should be ordained as pastors. She talks about praying over women. People are desperate, they’ll take little nuances here and there

and they’ll try and create some straw man argument out of these things. You know for instance, you can find a place where Ellen White was issued a ministerial credentials when her husband died so she could stay on the church payroll. And they say, see, here it talks about Ellen White ordained as a minister of the gospel. This is actually a photocopy, Karen took a picture of it. Where’d you get this dear? I forget. Elmshaven! I think there’s another one somewhere else. [Ellen White’s Ministry license is shown on the screen for

the audience] You look, I'm going to zoom in now on this, when it was issued same time, same ink, same pen, they crossed out the word ordained. Because they said this is not ordination. I am thrilled for women teachers. And I am thrilled when women get involved in bible studies and evangelism. And if you’ve come here for any length of time you know we had Jeanie Lawson, was a bible worker here. I would ask her to teach my class. I don’t remember, she may have preached too. We have had women preach here.

You see we’re not talking about that—they’re doing it under the authority of the pastor. They’re not usurping that authority. I am responsible as the priest leader in my family for worship. But don’t you think I delegate that to Karen an awful lot? I’m traveling, I say dear I’ve go to go to work, I’m leaving early, kids aren’t up yet, can you have worship with them today? She’s not taking my role. You understand? There is a difference there. So we’re not speaking against women using their gifts. And I was tempted to go through all the places in the Bible where God uses women. And I thought you know that’s almost condescending and patronizing. Of course in every other way, but there is a place where God has drawn a line. Matter of fact, this would be if anything, if you’re going to draw a line anywhere, if you’re making any distinction where Paul makes all these statements about the role of women in the family and the church, you would at the very least need to draw the line here—that women should not be ordained as pastors or elders. Elders, they

were basically the same thing. You do not have any example in the Bible of women serving as apostles. Why did Jesus choose 12 apostles, men only? Well he was conforming to the customs of the day, it would interrupt the work if he had chosen any women. Nonsense. Jesus died because he would not conform. And when Judas was hung, he hung himself, and they needed to replace him, there was an upper room filled with men and women, they chose two men to pick from. That would never fly today. They would say, you know to be politically correct we need to have at least a woman and a man to pick from! Right? Or you would be accused of being sexist and discrimination. All through the Bible all the priest were men. Can women be prophets? Can men be prophets? Amram and Jocabed had three children, very unusual, all there children were prophets. What were there names? Miriam, Aaron, Moses - in order of their births by the way. How many of those children were prophets? All three. How many were priests? Just the boys. And I don’t know, perhaps you remember the story in the Bible where Miriam and Aaron came to challenge Moses and what he was doing. And

God stood up for Moses against his brother and his sister. And you know who was punished the most severely? Not Aaron. Miriam received leprosy. Moses prayed for it and it went away after a week. Because she was overstepping, telling her two priest brothers…[sidetracking now], she was probably instrumental…By the way they were angry because he had married an Ethiopian woman. And Miriam, maybe because she had once been prophetess now, Moses is listening to his wife. I can just picture how that all unfolded. So she must have been kind of the ring leader in that argument. But there is a distinction made from cover to cover in the Bible. But how do you live with that today. Oh by the way, I didn’t want to rush away from, I was talking about Ellen White. Let me read a quote from Ellen White. This is from Testimonies volume 5 page 60: “The primary object of our college was to afford young men an opportunity to study for the ministry and to prepare young persons of both sexes to become workers in the various branches of the cause.” That’s what you call slam dunk. She was just perfectly clear. Young men prepare for the ministry, young persons of both sexes for the

various branches of the cause. She was really clear as a woman. She understood these things. I think that’s pretty strong. You know you’ve got a lot of examples in the Bible of people who said, what difference does it say if God said it’s just supposed to be the Levites, you have to be from the tribe of Aaron or the tribe of Levite to officiate, isn’t that discriminating? It is discrimination. God was making a discrimination. There was a reason for it. He had chosen the sons of Aaron to be the priests, the sons of Levite to be the ministers. And along comes King Uzi and he says you know I’m the king, all the pagan cultures, the king could also offer sacrifice. And so he thought the other kings do it, I can’t even go into the holy of holies in the temple. He said I’m the king! He was a good king. All through his life it records Uzi was a good King. But when his heart was lifted up, 2 Chronicles 26: 16-19, “ But when his heart was lifted up to his destruction, he transgressed against the Lord his God by entering into the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the alter of incense.” He said I can do this and you know the priest stood up against him and said, Uzi, this will not be for your honor. He said I deserve it

just as much as you deserve it. I’m as good as you. I can swing the incense just like you can swing the incense. What difference does it make? Because God has not chosen you. It wasn't the descendants of Judah, where Uzi was from. It was the descendants of Levi and Aaron. And he started to argue with them and probably had a lot of very good creative, clever arguments and rationalizations. And while he became furious and he argued with them and how narrow and restrictive they were, leprosy broke out in his forehead. They

chased him out of the temple and he died a leper. Does God have the right to be God? Does God have any rights? So when God says things in his word should be a certain way, are we going to tell him he’s wrong? We may not understand it, but the first thing before we understand is, to submit to what he says. Romans 9:20: “But nay, but o man, who are thou that repliest against God, shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?” God has a ministry for everybody, but does he give the same gifts to everybody. Some prophets, some apostles, some teachers, some preachers. I mean just all different kinds of gifts of the Spirit, God has a work for everybody to do. You know I think about this statement, you probably seen it from the book Education, page 57, one of my favorites, written by a woman: “The greatest want of the world is the want of men. Men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men” and some when they read this they say oh she’s just speaking in generic terms. I might be wrong, but I don’t think so. I think she specifically is emphasizing God is looking for men because there’s a vacuum of men. You know before Ellen White was called, God called two men . They didn’t have the backbone to do what she did. So God called her. And the reason in the days of Debra God called Debra, it’s because there were no men that were leading. “The

greatest want of the world is the want of men.” Want means there’s a vacuum. There’s a lack of. “Men who will not be bought or sold. Men who in their in most souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men who’s consciences is as true to duty as the needle is to the pole, men who will stand to the right though the heavens fall.” Now spiritually we are all of royal priesthood. Spiritually we are called to minister for God. Technically though, in the families and in the churches, God has designed that men should be those servant leaders as the priest of the family, the pastors and the elders in the church. I believe that. I do not believe that the last 1900 years of church history we’ve been wrong. If people fall for the popular feminist version of interpretation today, they really have to throw out Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Adam Clark, John Gill, Matthew Henry, you name any great commentator of history, from go back 100 years. You’ve got to throw them all away. They were all wrong.

I’ve read them. Were they all wrong the last 1900 years? Or is something wrong with what we are doing in the world today? I think one of the things that is going to bring the wrath of God on this generation is that men are not being men. They’ve been intimidated. We’ve been intimidated, men. Peter pulled out a sword when they came to arrest Jesus, when his friends were watching, he was ready to die. Little while later, a little girl made fun of him and he denied Christ. Elijah stands on a mountain top, takes on hundreds of prophets of bail and then Jezebel send him a letter and he runs for his life. I don’t know what it is, but it seems like we are living in a generation where the men are being intimidated. And I think that God is calling us to return to the faith that was once delivered to the fathers. That men should be the priest leaders in the families, they should take up their role and lead out spiritually and in the churches. I believe the Bible only teaches that men should be ordained as pastors and elders. And I pray that this message will go to others as well because my voice just might be a little hiccup in a hurricane, I don’t know if it’s going to make any difference. I’m praying it does because I'm hearing so much of the other arguments, I figure that maybe there is still room for arguing what we used to believe for 1900 years. By the way I've written a little book on this, that we will send to anybody who wants to call in for it. I wouldn't sell anything on Sabbath. We’ll send it to you, we want to get the message out. It’s called Women In Ministry, talks about more, has the references we’ve talked about, we want to put it in your hands. As we close the main thing I want everyone to know, I can just about guarantee that everybody here is either a man or a woman. And so this is relevant for all of us isn’t it? And he has a ministry for all us because we are all part of that spiritual priesthood. Right? And the question is are you willing to submit to the Lord? And to go where he is telling you to go, and to do what he is telling you to do.

Lets pray. Dear father in Heaven, Lord we have talked today about a difficult subject, in part because it is not a popular subject and there is great disagreement even within our ranks over this delicate issue. And if today Lord I have portrayed things in the wrong light, forgive any sarcasm, or any heat rather than light. And I just pray that the simplicity of the truth will be clear. Lord bless each person here that we might submit to your word. We know it’s the word that save us, the word that transforms us, and Christ indeed is the word and the word that will ultimately set us free. I pray your blessing Lord on your people today. Let there be a revival among your people Lord. Help us to once again be a people of the book, where we can point to the book and say here’s why we practice what we practice. Here is why we believe what we believe. And be with those who have responded to the invitation this morning, whatever the needs might be in their lives, and answer their prayers. Bring them healing, bring them instruction and comfort and peace. Bless this church Lord that we might be faithful. Thank you again for your goodness and your presence here on this Sabbath day. We ask these things in Jesus name, Amen.

[phkrause]

What a humble human being he is. Thanks for reaffirming that. I've seem this sermon a number of times.

[Woody]

Thanks for posting that teresa.

That is just terrible.

He should be disciplined for such trash.

[teresaq]

I found it extremely painful. I don't think the man realizes he exposed his real heart and soul, what I have been seeing in him all along.

I'm not saying he doesn't love the Lord, he probably loves Him very much, but this and most everything he does show me why I have such a hard time hearing and seeing him.

He is very good at presenting the facts that all may comprehend...but he doesn't lead me to the Lord. He leads me to facts and figures...but only God can save. "As dry as the hills of Gilboa"....he leaves me empty and in pain.

So empty of God and so full of his opinions and "he said she said", so full of man.

Quote:

There are some Christians who remind me of stainless steel. They are clean but cold, and not very appealing. They do little wrong. They are very good at avoiding vices condemned in the first part of Colossians 3, as well as a good many not mentioned there. But they are not warm or winsome. Their holiness is a sort of holiness by numbers. They’ve learned the rules and are painting their lives within the lines. But they’re not very personable or attractive…. They are the sort of people Mark Twain talked about ‘good in the worse sense of the word’”. – Derek Tidball, The Reality Is Christ

[olger]

What a humble human being he is. Thanks for reaffirming that. I've seem this sermon a number of times.

[Woody]

I do give credit to Doug. He is being used by God.

He is the one that started the WO Movement.

Think about it. Until he preached this dispicable sermon - not much was happening. But look at what has happened since.

Praise God for gathering His Saints.

[Naomi]

What a humble human being he is. Thanks for reaffirming that. I've seem this sermon a number of times.

[Overaged]

http://sdacaricatures.blogspot.com/2012/07/womens-ordination.html

Looks like opponents to those who object to WO will stop at nothing to deface other opinions and people disagreeing with them. This is disgusting and should have been deleted...