a Norwegian perspective

[Sonja]

Tom, if a woman pastor is placed where all in a congregation are in agreement that it is an acceptable placement, then I see no problem. It is where an arbitrary placement is made without due regard to those who do not feel a woman pastor is a biblically acceptable practice, with which I take issue.

To make clear: I am not arguing for or against women's ordination. I am arguing in defense of those church members whose convictions are ignored. It does not matter to the vast majority of church members if their pastor is a male. On the other hand, it does negatively matter to many if a pastor is a woman.

There is nothing to bar a woman from being a guest speaker in a church on specific issues. I do not think anyone would object to that. For many, it is the issue of whether a woman can adequately lead a church. If a woman pastor has the full support of a church, then she will be successful. If a woman does not have the full support of a church, she will not be successful - because a leader cannot be a leader unless he or she has the support of those he/she is endeavoring to lead.

[Tom Wetmore]

All quite true. And equally applicable for male pastors. Many male pastors have found themselves in an ill fitting church where they do not have the full support of their members, for a variety of reasons. Or sometimes that which started out well disintegrates over time.

But that is an administrative and placement issue. Not every pastor is suited for a urban contemporary ministry. And not every pastor is suited for a small rural conservative/traditional ministry. Effective leadership at the conference level seeks to place pastors to maximize their effectiveness to best nurture and grow that congregation. Male vs. female is but one factor.

Most female pastors currently do not serve as a single or senior pastor of a church. Most serve in a church as an associate pastor along with one or more male pastors. There is a balance and richness to ministry in those churches that is much more difficult to achieve in with an all male pastoral team.

But that simply begs the question, why forbid women pastors for everyone just because women are not well suited or accepted in certain places?

[Sonja]

No, I do not believe what I wrote is equally applicable to male pastors. A church member who does not accept a male pastor is not at odds due to the fact that the pastor is a man; it would be for an entirely different reason.

[Tom Wetmore]

Perhaps I could have been more clear. The reason on which some male pastors are not acceptable to some members are just as strongly held for very similar reasons. I am not talking about merely personality clashes or the like. The reasons a woman is not accepted are as varied as are the reasons for not accepting many male pastors. Sometimes it is based on a theological foundation. Most often it is culturally based. The same reasons often do not make a male pastor a good fit. Very often it is a theological/Biblical interpretation or moral disagreement. But just as frequently it is a cultural issue.

[teresaq]

Teresa, I intentionally did not answer your question about the presence of ordained women pastors in Norway, simply because that was not a relevant question to my comments. Forcing someone to choose between two opposing, yet both unacceptable, choices is psychologically unhealthy. The American philosophy of "put up or shut up" mentality is woefully lacking in understanding. It is my opinion that God is not happy with coercion. He, Himself, does not do that to His created children.

[Sonja]

Tom, I agree with you. However, it remains that reasons for not wanting a male pastor (because he is male), is not an issue for people. The reasons for not wanting a female pastor is based primarily on the fact that she is female, with, of course, the attendant theological and/or personal and/or cultural implications.

[Sonja]

I understand, Woody. Thank you. I will not make observations regarding the apparent behavior of players here. May I ask for the same courtesy from others?

[Sonja]

Teresa, I will not respond to your "bait" questions. They are not "on topic." As Woody has just written, please stay on topic. Thank you.

[Woody]

I understand, Woody. Thank you. I will not make observations regarding the apparent behavior of players here. May I ask for the same courtesy from others?

LOL. Yes, you may ask. But most likely - you will not receive.

[Sonja]

Woody, it is apparent that I will not receive that from at least one person here.

[Woody]

Woody, it is apparent that I will not receive that from at least one person here.

Sonja - I am sure that most of us here could say the same thing. But we must try to be responsible for our own behaviour and not the behaviour of others.

[Sonja]

Woody, then your instruction to me regarding "tradition" here was invalid, yes? Very well. It is an interesting combination of requirements.

A calm observation of another's apparent hostility is not usually inappropriate. If one does not agree with the observation, yet the behaviour continues, then the observation was accurate.

I would very much like for the content of my opening remark to be discussed, rather than obtuse, irrelevant items, however interesting.

[Sonja]

Coaspen, my comment was not disrespectful. It was merely an observation. I was unaware that observations were not permitted here.

[Gordon1]

There's much baiting, intolerance and bitterness as you've noticed, along with sarcasm, mocking, ridicule. That same spirit invaded Heaven long ago and here we are today in one fine mess.

Therefore a schism in the church will not be surprising. But the real shaking will likely be less evident, as true believers depart from the chaos & worldliness. They will not be drawn into argument or debate, but merely testify for the truth, leaving scorners to their own delusion. Christ brought no railing accusation when confronting Satan over the body of Moses. He durst not.

We have been warned that the real enemies of God's people will be those who knew them well and formerly kept the Sabbath day.

BTW - how many SDAs in Norway?

[olger]

Tom, I agree with you. However, it remains that reasons for not wanting a male pastor (because he is male), is not an issue for people. The reasons for not wanting a female pastor is based primarily on the fact that she is female, with, of course, the attendant theological and/or personal and/or cultural implications.

True, Sonja.

[Gordon1]

Since there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9), it's very likely this conflict plagued Christ's ministry.

How many rejected Him because He was the Son of God instead of a Daughter?

[olger]

Liberals probably resent the foundation of the New Jerusalem as well.