Redemption for all?

[M. T. Cross]

The following is a somewhat silly tongue in cheek cartoon. But I think it makes a really good point. A good point about pushing our beliefs (whatever those beliefs are) on others. Discussion and debate are wonderful things as tools for learning, as a way to further our own spiritual knowledge, but do any of us have the right to damn others for not believing the same as us.

Enjoy - and please pay attention at 5:45

[JawgeFromJawja]

Thanks, EC.Entertaining,short, and thought provoking.

The way all sermons should be.

Agape.

[Overaged]

5:45 was indeed the moment of "decision."

[M. T. Cross]

I see the moment at 5:45 not so much as about decision, but one of reward. That for every belief system out there at the end there is a different reward, a different home. The place where we belong. For Bjorn that was not the Biblical heaven, but he ended up there because the overzealous did not respect his beliefs and customs. By doing so they condemned him to an afterlife that was torture for him.

This leads me to wonder how much damage is done when beliefs are forced on others. Damage in this life as much as in whatever may come next.

[Overaged]

This leads me to wonder how much damage is done when beliefs are forced on others. Damage in this life as much as in whatever may come next.

I see your point. I guess I see this as a case where people do this "damage;" and not necessarily the beliefs. And; what you say would depend on what you mean by "force."

[Gibs]

This is the reason the false way must be exposed for what it is, another lie of Satan.

The true way will be hated in this world of mass deception expecially of the salvation issue, the most important issue of all time.

Our final discision on what is truth and what is the lie will land us in but one of two places, the reward of eternal death or the reward of eternal life.

Promoting the truth of the matter is very commendable but to promote the lie one is become an accomplice of Satan.

When one is sure he has the truth of the matter should he sit on his lees and do nothing and let his fellow men fall into the eternal death pit?.

I think not. But on the other hand if he is teaching the false he is adding others to that pit plus adding coals to his own burning up fire.

The moral of the story, it is a dire thing to be a false teacher. But a great thing to teach the truth.

That is on the order of this starement by Jesus,

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

The moral of the story, it is a dire thing to be a false teacher. But a great thing to teach the truth.

I think this is how I would say it too.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

When one is sure he has the truth of the matter should he sit on his lees and do nothing and let his fellow men fall into the eternal death pit?.

I think not. But on the other hand if he is teaching the false he is adding others to that pit plus adding coals to his own burning up fire.

The moral of the story, it is a dire thing to be a false teacher. But a great thing to teach the truth.

Alright, fair enough. So if I am convinced I have the truth then I should be here, there and everywhere proclaiming it to the world.

You are convinced you have the truth and should be here, there and everywhere proclaiming it to the world.

All the other guys are convinced they have the truth and should be here, there and everywhere proclaiming it to the world.

Tell me what is gained from that? We can all say that the other one is a false teacher, that to follow a message other than our own is a sure path to doom, destruction and dire consequnces. Again what is gained from that?

I'll tell you what I think. I think I don't have any more truth than you or any of the other guys. We all have various slices of the pie, some may be bigger than the others but they are still a slice of the pie. In ancient times that was enough. Each culture had their slice and it sustained them. But as we have progressed as a species we now have the ability, the knowledge and the oppurtunity to put those pieces together. If we can put aside the differences someday we may see the whole pie.

But I can assure you of this. As long as people have the mind set of "My truth is the ONLY truth" no-one is going to get anywhere at all. It just breeds resentment, angst and is the seed of hate.

[Overaged]

Tell me what is gained from that? We can all say that the other one is a false teacher, that to follow a message other than our own is a sure path to doom, destruction and dire consequnces. Again what is gained from that?

[M. T. Cross]

Tell me what is gained from that? We can all say that the other one is a false teacher, that to follow a message other than our own is a sure path to doom, destruction and dire consequnces. Again what is gained from that?

[Overaged]

I agree with much of what you are saying here; but lets make the rubber hit the road for a minute here, if that's OK. At what point would I, or someone else be "pushing" a belief on you? What might that look like if I were to do that to you right now, in regards to "redemption for everyone?"

[Gibs]

The thing of it is TRUTH is very provable.. How so? His Word is Truth and many twist on it very hard but that don't work. Why? Because He says what He means and man He means what He says and none of it is hard to understand as to the meaning.

Should we be hurt if our understanding is proven by the Word not what it says. I want the Truth and care not if I am found amiss. I want to find out. I must find out. We must have the TRUTH and we need it on every point. Who cares if pride takes a hit, it needs killed anyway so more power to that hit, let's be humbled to assimilate the truth and make double and triple sure of it.

If we truly want the TRUTH you know it is promised us and is a sure thing for the real truth seeker,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Oh! and do I love that last end part! "he will shew you things to come". Believe it, look who said it!

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[fccool]

Quote:

The thing of it is TRUTH is very provable.. How so? His Word is Truth and many twist on it very hard but that don't work. Why? Because He says what He means and man He means what He says and none of it is hard to understand as to the meaning.

How is that any proof of TRUTH? It's merely a claim. You are basically saying that it's the truth because the author means it How does that prove anything in terms of the veracity of the claims?

[Woody]

Truth is highly over-rated. None of us really know what truth is. We will be surprised when we get to Heaven and discover REAL Truth.

LOVE is far greater than "truth".

[Overaged]

when the stap is taken outside of that and those beliefs are pushed on others then there is the seed. Here is what I have seen a lot of in my life. Those kind loving individuals insisting that if you do not hold as firm to their beliefs as they do that you are damned. If you challenge their beliefs they get very dismissive, condescending and/or defensive. I have seen this in almost every religious community. I think the only place I have not seen that is in Buddhist folks - though I am sure it happens with them too.

Soem people are happy in their bubble. Thats fine too - as long as their bubble does not try to collect others into it.

I see what you mean now by "setting aside the differences." Thankyou for clarifying that for me. makes perfect sense to just hold one's tongue and listen for a change. Although I would add that there is counsel in the Bible to also listen and learn by talking, by asking questions to be exact. It is something Jesus did all the time; and i counted up all the questions He asked in the four gospels one day as I was studying this idea. 308 questions just in the four gospels, not counting the many more in the rest of the Bible! And Jesus was a good listener. He knew how to do it with all kinds of people, so maybe what I am saying here is it may not be as much related to what you do in telling others the truth about redemption; but in HOW you do it? This seems to be what you are driving at.

You know, I like my "bubble." lol I really do. It's such a nice place to be. But I noticed that people don't always want to be in there with me; they seem to most enjoy just looking in from the outside...that is; they enjoy being around me, but they don't want to be me. It gets ugly when I try to make them be like me. lol. Ask my lovely wife who has put up with me for 22 years!

There are times when i think we just need to tell people the truth, as we see it, regardless of the consequences. Consider the enclosed pic below of my cat, taken a couple of hours ago. Now lets just say this cat belonged to my best friend, just for illustration's purposes. Should I tell my friend the truth about their cat? Keep in mind too we are baby-sitting the bird for a friend. lol

[JoeMo]

Oh, but we do know what truth is - Truth is a Person - Jesus!

"Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” (John 14:5-7)

[Overaged]

Truth is highly over-rated. None of us really know what truth is. We will be surprised when we get to Heaven and discover REAL Truth.

LOVE is far greater than "truth".

You could be right about it so often being "over-rated." And I do agree that "Love is truth." But do you know how many different kinds of "love" there are? Yikes!

[Overaged]

Oh, but we do know what truth is - Truth is a Person - Jesus!

[fccool]

Truth is highly over-rated. None of us really know what truth is. We will be surprised when we get to Heaven and discover REAL Truth.

LOVE is far greater than "truth".

So, if you don't know what the truth is, how exactly do you know that there is Heaven?

"Love is greater than truth" is one of those those vague statements that begs "amen" . Love and truth are not in the same realm of equating or comparing. Truth is a statement about ontological reality, and love is an expressive action.

[fccool]

Quote:

Oh, but we do know what truth is - Truth is a Person - Jesus!

Truth is primarily defined as being in accord with reality. Truth is not a person. Once again, truth and person are two different realms of semantics. One is a concrete, the other one is abstract. It's like saying that freedom is a person. It voids these ideas of any relevant meaning.

[M. T. Cross]

I agree with much of what you are saying here; but lets make the rubber hit the road for a minute here, if that's OK. At what point would I, or someone else be "pushing" a belief on you? What might that look like if I were to do that to you right now, in regards to "redemption for everyone?"

In my case - never. I mean I have come here to an Adventist forum, if I was to complain about anyone pushing SDA beliefs on me I would be an idiot Even in that case I have found a number of people that are open to discussion.

But I will point out that while most people here are either open to theological discussion with me the non Christian - if you (meaning anyone not just you OA) take a look at the discussions you all have with each other - it happens all the time. Its easy to dismiss the likes of me - but I see those seeds of hatred planted all the time amongst the fellow believers.

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by "what would it look like?"

[M. T. Cross]

The thing of it is TRUTH is very provable.. How so? His Word is Truth and many twist on it very hard but that don't work. Why? Because He says what He means and man He means what He says and none of it is hard to understand as to the meaning.

Should we be hurt if our understanding is proven by the Word not what it says. I want the Truth and care not if I am found amiss. I want to find out. I must find out. We must have the TRUTH and we need it on every point. Who cares if pride takes a hit, it needs killed anyway so more power to that hit, let's be humbled to assimilate the truth and make double and triple sure of it.

If we truly want the TRUTH you know it is promised us and is a sure thing for the real truth seeker,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Oh! and do I love that last end part! "he will shew you things to come". Believe it, look who said it!

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Again Gibs, how do you know that is the truth? Just because the book says its truth? I can write you a book about the time I spent in Iceland and tell you it is true. Doesn't mean it is though.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

when the stap is taken outside of that and those beliefs are pushed on others then there is the seed. Here is what I have seen a lot of in my life. Those kind loving individuals insisting that if you do not hold as firm to their beliefs as they do that you are damned. If you challenge their beliefs they get very dismissive, condescending and/or defensive. I have seen this in almost every religious community. I think the only place I have not seen that is in Buddhist folks - though I am sure it happens with them too.

Soem people are happy in their bubble. Thats fine too - as long as their bubble does not try to collect others into it.

I see what you mean now by "setting aside the differences." Thankyou for clarifying that for me. makes perfect sense to just hold one's tongue and listen for a change. Although I would add that there is counsel in the Bible to also listen and learn by talking, by asking questions to be exact. It is something Jesus did all the time; and i counted up all the questions He asked in the four gospels one day as I was studying this idea. 308 questions just in the four gospels, not counting the many more in the rest of the Bible! And Jesus was a good listener. He knew how to do it with all kinds of people, so maybe what I am saying here is it may not be as much related to what you do in telling others the truth about redemption; but in HOW you do it? This seems to be what you are driving at.

You know, I like my "bubble." lol I really do. It's such a nice place to be. But I noticed that people don't always want to be in there with me; they seem to most enjoy just looking in from the outside...that is; they enjoy being around me, but they don't want to be me. It gets ugly when I try to make them be like me. lol. Ask my lovely wife who has put up with me for 22 years!

There are times when i think we just need to tell people the truth, as we see it, regardless of the consequences. Consider the enclosed pic below of my cat, taken a couple of hours ago. Now lets just say this cat belonged to my best friend, just for illustration's purposes. Should I tell my friend the truth about their cat? Keep in mind too we are baby-sitting the bird for a friend. lol

Great point about Jesus. I was not aware that it was that many questions that he asked, but I knew it was a lot. I have no beef with the wisdom of Jesus at all. Would be mind blowing if more of those that followed him followed his example more often.

[Overaged]

If we truly want the TRUTH you know it is promised us and is a sure thing for the real truth seeker,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I like this point you made here! Excellent!

[JoeMo]

Hey fccool,

If one learns about Jesus, believes who He is; believes He does what He says He does; and emulates His life, one is living the Truth.

If you are a believer, Jesus is truth for you. You say truth is concrete. I agree. But my version of truth may not agree with yours. Yours may not agree with someone else's.