What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

[Stan]

What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

[Stan]

anyone?

[Gail]

*watching with bated breath*

[Stan]

So for those against it, what is it Females should not do?

For those for it, what should females do that they can not now?

[olger]

Two extra points for spelling bated properly, Gail.

[Gail]

Two extra points for spelling bated properly, Gail.

Yes, trying to avoid baiting if at all possible.

[olger]

According to Paul, God has given both male and female a unique sphere that is different and compliments each other, just as the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son have unique roles within their divine purpose(s).

I believe that it is this distinction that our world is at war with - thus all the fuss. I believe that this "war" has spilled over into the church in certain circles.

The line of authority in Ephesians flows from heaven, not towards it.

[CyberGuy]

According to Paul, God has given both male and female a unique sphere that is different and compliments each other, just as the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son have unique roles within their divine purpose(s).

I believe that it is this distinction that our world is at war with - thus all the fuss. I believe that this "war" has spilled over into the church in certain circles.

The line of authority in Ephesians flows from heaven, not towards it.

You still did not clearly answer the question. What exactly are women NOT to do that men can do?

[Woody]

Quote:

You still did not clearly answer the question. What exactly are women NOT to do that men can do?

It's very difficult to pin them down CyberGuy. They love to ramble on and on with out of context quotes. But get them to be specific - no - not possible. They won't even agree with what their quotes say if you could pin them down.

[CyberGuy]

Sigh. Yes I know that.

It is like the bible stories of the Pharisees demanding to see a miracle from Christ to prove he is the massiah. This after a full day of healing and working miracles. After that they still demand a sign. Nothing would open their eyes no matter what proof Christ gave. I feel the same with these guys sometimes.

As the saying goes. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

[Tobiwan]

I fear that like a lot of discussions in our church, we will analyze till we are paralyzed. Sides will be set up, and groups divided into Us vs. Them. Time will be wasted and trees will die to produce books for all sides. Time that we need to do what we were raised up to do which is to prepare the would for the for Jesus' return. Protect trees needed to process CO2 and O2.

Look at one very real fact. At least two men refused to let God use them, and God went next to "the weakest of the weak" a young girl to reveal some of the clearest and most beautiful aspects of God to this world that I have ever seen.

I am pretty sure "They" have no clue about the NOT part, they are just against it.

We need all the help we can get and God is waiting for men to get out of the way

[Nic Samojluk]

What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

The blessing that comes from the laying on hands, occupying the role of senior pastor, conference president, union president, Division president, or General Conference president; and being paid the higher salary of those occupying said positions.

[Nic Samojluk]

According to Paul, God has given both male and female a unique sphere that is different and compliments each other, just as the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son have unique roles within their divine purpose(s).

The role of a pastor is that of a servant. Ministry means service. What is wrong with women being servants?

[pragclark]

"For those for it, what should females do that they can not now?"

I will answer this solely from a practical standpoint.

In the United States currently,in reference to paid pastors, a woman can be commissioned, the "equivalent" of Men's ordination.

This is the basic practical limitations of commissioning:

1-Some conferences can use it as an excuse to pay 4% less maximum pay scale; although I don't know of any conferences that still practice this... they can.

2-Officially, only ordained ministers can ordain others

3-Only ordained ministers can preside in an 'opening' a new church or a 'closing' of a church (church plants/church funerals)

4-There is an administrative glass ceiling for commissioned ministers (ie. they can not be conference presidents)

5-A Commissioned Minister is commissioned only in the US, other countries/conferences/unions/divisions can recognize it at their discretion.

On the other side, Commissioned ministers have the privilege of having all the same job expectations, pressures, and duties as an ordained minister with the added blessings of #1-5.

This is how it plays out in one specific instance:

A female pastor has grown her church from 100 to over 250 as well as planted a new church(?) primarily made up of young adults in an unentered area of a major city in the US. Her new church(?) has approximately 50-70 in regular attendance and would have an offical church on the books if she were ordained...

She is commissioned, therefore her church is not 'official'. She can not ordain elders or deacons at either site without another active pastor present. How many active pastors are available on a sabbath for an ordination service out of their own district?

I am on a theological fence over the issue... but on one part of it, i stand firm:

IF a conference has decided to extend a call to a woman, and IF said woman has proven God is blessing her ministry through her fruits, and IF said conference suggests to their union to officially accept said woman as an ordained pastor... no say no is nothing short of sexism.

PUC and CUC have made correct ethical and timely votes in the name of rationality and justice. They have not voted that women have to be hired. They have not voted women have to be called. They have not voted that called women have to be referred to union committee to be ordained.

They have voted that IF a woman feels called to ministry AND IF a conference agrees to extend her a call AND IF the presence of God is evidenced in her ministry in time AND IF that conference that hired her suggests to the Union that she be hired, THEN AND ONLY THEN the Union will not deny her ordination BASED ON GENDER ALONE, although she can be denied as any man can be.

For instance, in the Columbia Union, women in Potomac and Ohio conferences were immediately ordained. In the Pennsylvania conference, they have commissioned women, but did not suggest them to the union to be ordained, so they are not. Neither conference was condemned nor congratulated by the Columbia Union.

I don't think God wants his pastors to marry active harlots... but he did call his prophet to do so (see Hosea and Gomer). I may or may not question what our intentions are as conferences in hiring women in the first place. But I will not limit God in who he uses once they are hired... we will know them by their fruits.

...Just my thoughts

[Woody]

Quote:

We need all the help we can get and God is waiting for men to get out of the way

Excellent

[CyberGuy]

I fear that like a lot of discussions in our church, we will analyze till we are paralyzed. Sides will be set up, and groups divided into Us vs. Them. Time will be wasted and trees will die to produce books for all sides. Time that we need to do what we were raised up to do which is to prepare the would for the for Jesus' return. Protect trees needed to process CO2 and O2.

Look at one very real fact. At least two men refused to let God use them, and God went next to "the weakest of the weak" a young girl to reveal some of the clearest and most beautiful aspects of God to this world that I have ever seen.

I am pretty sure "They" have no clue about the NOT part, they are just against it.

We need all the help we can get and God is waiting for men to get out of the way

I remember that story. It was the first white guy who refused to tell that first vision and God took it from him so he could not remember it until he heard Ellen Harmen AKA Ellen White tell the vision.

A black guy had several visions but God started using Ellen shortly after that. I do not think the black guy refused to tell the visions or did anything to displease God as far as I remember.

[CyberGuy]

In some countries and in some states I think that only an ordained pastor can do weddings that the state will recognise.

In some countries only and ordained pastor can baptize. That is up to the local conference or Union I think.

[CyberGuy]

Who Can Become Ordained?

Unless you have a specific denomination in mind, chances are you can become ordained. Most online ordination programs will ordain any man or woman in the United States, Canada and several other countries regardless of their lifestyle, gender or faith, while many churches are more specific about who they ordain.

What Does It Allow You to Do?

Becoming ordained allows you to perform in a ministerial role. This includes conducting marriage ceremonies, baptisms, funerals, anointing of people and sometimes even exorcism. You might only be interested in performing the wedding ceremony of a friend, or you may be interested in starting your own congregation and leading church services.

Read more: What Does it Mean to Be Ordained? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5403711_mean-ordained.html#ixzz25AO0152N

[Woody]

excellent info CyberGuy.

[John317]

The answer to these questions is laid out in the Bible, particularly in the first several chapters of Genesis and in the letters of Paul.

It might be best to ask the question, what happened when Eve took over the leadership/protector role that God intended for Adam to fulfill, and what did Adam do in consequence?

I see a definite connection between that and the instructions that the Holy Spirit gave to the church through Paul about the different roles of men and women in the home and in the church.

I think many people today are getting their views on this topic from humanism and society rather than from the Bible.

[Woody]

The answer to these questions is laid out in the Bible, particularly in the first several chapters of Genesis and in the letters of Paul.

It might be best to ask the question, what happened when Eve took over the leadership/protector role that God intended for Adam to fulfill, and what did Adam do in consequence?

I see a definite connection between that and the instructions that the Holy Spirit gave to the church through Paul about the different roles of men and women in the home and in the church.

I think many people today are getting their views on this topic from humanism and society rather than from the Bible.

That seems rather arrogant and condemning of our fellow brothers in Christ. It would be very easy to return like kind for this attack ... but I choose the high ground.

Let me just say that your accusations don't hold water when scripture is rightly interpreted.

[olger]

Quote:

"I think many people today are getting their views on this topic from humanism and society rather than from the Bible."

That appears to be the case, John.

`G

[Stan]

am not agreeing/disagreeing with either, but please to the topic.

and nomatter what, there would be some exception as needed for example who would disagree with a

Female going into a female prison, baptized them, formed a company and she presented that to the conference to be part of the sister hood of churches? ( I know it is more complex than that)

I think even Elder Wilson would approve that.

[Stan]

Should females only baptize the same if available?

Should males only baptize the same if available?

Quit barking and begin having conversations. PLEASE

[shelly]

The answer to these questions is laid out in the Bible, particularly in the first several chapters of Genesis and in the letters of Paul.

It might be best to ask the question, what happened when Eve took over the leadership/protector role that God intended for Adam to fulfill, and what did Adam do in consequence?

I see a definite connection between that and the instructions that the Holy Spirit gave to the church through Paul about the different roles of men and women in the home and in the church.

I think many people today are getting their views on this topic from humanism and society rather than from the Bible.

One pastor of mine put forth this question and I feel that this is the heart of the matter. When we were redeemed at the cross were we redeemed to our roles given after the fall or before. Man's leadership role over women is a consequence of the fall. It is part of our punishment according to Gen. 3 along with pain in childbirth. A result of poor decision making rather than an explination of a "natural" order. If our restoration will not take place until after Christ's return then gender roles are important to the running of our church. If we have been restored to our place before sin at the cross then men's claim to authority do not matter.