What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

[doug yowell]

Yes, trying to avoid baiting if at all possible.

Unless you're fishing for an answer.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Yes, trying to avoid baiting if at all possible.

Unless you're fishing for an answer.

Good One guys and gal.

[doug yowell]

What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

Interesting way to ask a question,Stan. It has got me to thinking. I'm slow at that sort of thing but I'm working on it.Right off the bat I see see some problems in the thrust of the question itself. If I find some time later I'll attempt to organize my otherwise scrambled brain in order to be more specific. However, here's a starter: 1)Be the spiritual leaders of their homes.

[doug yowell]

I am pretty sure "They" have no clue about the NOT part, they are just against it.

We need all the help we can get and God is waiting for men to get out of the way

I'm having trouble finding that concept in the Bible,T,can you guide me to any specific verses that might help?

[doug yowell]

am not agreeing/disagreeing with either, but please to the topic.

and nomatter what, there would be some exception as needed for example who would disagree with a

Female going into a female prison, baptized them, formed a company and she presented that to the conference to be part of the sister hood of churches? ( I know it is more complex than that)

I think even Elder Wilson would approve that.

"Even" Elder Wilson"? What does that mean,Stan? I'm 100% convinced that every Christian alive would support that but that example would not be in contradiction to anything the Bible teaches except maybe?? the baptism part.I believe we call that women's ministeries.(something men should generally stay out of)

[doug yowell]

One pastor of mine put forth this question and I feel that this is the heart of the matter. When we were redeemed at the cross were we redeemed to our roles given after the fall or before.

[Woody]

Quote:

However, here's a starter: 1)Be the spiritual leaders of their homes.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

Wow. A *them* vs. *us* question.

It seems that the vast majority of reasoning behind the push for women's ordination is that ordained women pastors can do what male pastors CANNOT do. If that's true, then the question "What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?" is rather moot (imho)..

[Nic Samojluk]

"For those for it, what should females do that they can not now?"

I will answer this solely from a practical standpoint.

In the United States currently,in reference to paid pastors, a woman can be commissioned, the "equivalent" of Men's ordination.

This is the basic practical limitations of commissioning:

1-Some conferences can use it as an excuse to pay 4% less maximum pay scale; although I don't know of any conferences that still practice this... they can.

2-Officially, only ordained ministers can ordain others

3-Only ordained ministers can preside in an 'opening' a new church or a 'closing' of a church (church plants/church funerals)

4-There is an administrative glass ceiling for commissioned ministers (ie. they can not be conference presidents)

5-A Commissioned Minister is commissioned only in the US, other countries/conferences/unions/divisions can recognize it at their discretion.

On the other side, Commissioned ministers have the privilege of having all the same job expectations, pressures, and duties as an ordained minister with the added blessings of #1-5.

This is how it plays out in one specific instance:

A female pastor has grown her church from 100 to over 250 as well as planted a new church(?) primarily made up of young adults in an unentered area of a major city in the US. Her new church(?) has approximately 50-70 in regular attendance and would have an offical church on the books if she were ordained...

She is commissioned, therefore her church is not 'official'. She can not ordain elders or deacons at either site without another active pastor present. How many active pastors are available on a sabbath for an ordination service out of their own district?

I am on a theological fence over the issue... but on one part of it, i stand firm:

IF a conference has decided to extend a call to a woman, and IF said woman has proven God is blessing her ministry through her fruits, and IF said conference suggests to their union to officially accept said woman as an ordained pastor... no say no is nothing short of sexism.

PUC and CUC have made correct ethical and timely votes in the name of rationality and justice. They have not voted that women have to be hired. They have not voted women have to be called. They have not voted that called women have to be referred to union committee to be ordained.

They have voted that IF a woman feels called to ministry AND IF a conference agrees to extend her a call AND IF the presence of God is evidenced in her ministry in time AND IF that conference that hired her suggests to the Union that she be hired, THEN AND ONLY THEN the Union will not deny her ordination BASED ON GENDER ALONE, although she can be denied as any man can be.

For instance, in the Columbia Union, women in Potomac and Ohio conferences were immediately ordained. In the Pennsylvania conference, they have commissioned women, but did not suggest them to the union to be ordained, so they are not. Neither conference was condemned nor congratulated by the Columbia Union.

I don't think God wants his pastors to marry active harlots... but he did call his prophet to do so (see Hosea and Gomer). I may or may not question what our intentions are as conferences in hiring women in the first place. But I will not limit God in who he uses once they are hired... we will know them by their fruits.

...Just my thoughts

Thanks for explaining with specific details the difference between commisioned and ordained ministers. You might be the first person who has taken the trouble to explain this to those like myself who lack this knowledge.

[Enabled]

I Agree with John317. Many argue from a humanistic view point.

We often look at the wrong premise for a point. What is it really about? I have never myself felt necessarily that a particular woman was incapable or unable to fill a particular office, but more correctly what has devinity ordained in its purpose. A man of one wife is the council, this excludes not only women but men having more than one living partner.(let not man separate that which God has joined together.) Nothing said about ability, only this, because woman was first deceived.

Ordaination is the blessing of the elders, to do that which God has called one to do. Any calling starts with the counsel left us in the Word. NOT with a feeling or impression from with in or with out. The greatest calling a women can receive is to bring up son's to fill the offices God has ordained and daugthers to improve upon that which the prior generation has done. And especially to forgive men for their errors in their past efforts to follow the master in leading the flocks.

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Stan

What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?

Wow. A *them* vs. *us* question.

It seems that the vast majority of reasoning behind the push for women's ordination is that ordained women pastors can do what male pastors CANNOT do. If that's true, then the question "What specific do 'they' want Females NOT to do, that Males can do?" is rather moot (imho)..

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Ordaination is the blessing of the elders, to do that which God has called one to do.

Glad to see you believe that God calls whom He will! Just need to get more 'elders' on board with blessing the women God calls!

[doug yowell]

.

Ordaination is the blessing of the elders, to do that which God has called one to do. Any calling starts with the counsel left us in the Word. NOT with a feeling or impression from with in or with out. The greatest calling a women can receive is to bring up son's to fill the offices God has ordained and daugthers to improve upon that which the prior generation has done. And especially to forgive men for their errors in their past efforts to follow the master in leading the flocks.

Me like.

[shelly]

I Agree with John317. Many argue from a humanistic view point.

We often look at the wrong premise for a point. What is it really about? I have never myself felt necessarily that a particular woman was incapable or unable to fill a particular office, but more correctly what has devinity ordained in its purpose. A man of one wife is the council, this excludes not only women but men having more than one living partner.(let not man separate that which God has joined together.) Nothing said about ability, only this, because woman was first deceived.

Ordaination is the blessing of the elders, to do that which God has called one to do. Any calling starts with the counsel left us in the Word. NOT with a feeling or impression from with in or with out. The greatest calling a women can receive is to bring up son's to fill the offices God has ordained and daugthers to improve upon that which the prior generation has done. And especially to forgive men for their errors in their past efforts to follow the master in leading the flocks.

Wow! Can this statement be anymore offensive or filled with male arrogance? Really, the greatest calling a woman can have to work for God is having babies?

[doug yowell]

So what is a woman's greatest calling, Shelly? God gave the carrying of a child exclusively to a woman (no men allowed!)Why do you think that He designed it that way? Has their Creator failed to provide men with anything unique to their calling? What is a more important work than raising children for God?

[shelly]

Doug,a woman's greatest calling is to do the will of the Father. That is all of our calling. There are plenty examples in the bible of women whose callings had nothing to do with having babies.

[Nic Samojluk]

What do we do with Paul’s instruction stating that women need to have children if hey want to be saved and that they should not talk in church but rather be silent and if they have any question, they should ask their husbands at home?

Do we follow this directive by Paul? If we don’t, then why do we need to insist that women cannot be ordained for the ministry?

[doug yowell]

Doug,a woman's greatest calling is to do the will of the Father. That is all of our calling. There are plenty examples in the bible of women whose callings had nothing to do with having babies.

Like? Would you consider I Tim.5:14 an illumination of God's will?

[doug yowell]

What do we do with Paul’s instruction stating that women need to have children if hey want to be saved and that they should not talk in church but rather be silent and if they have any question, they should ask their husbands at home?

Do we follow this directive by Paul? If we don’t, then why do we need to insist that women cannot be ordained for the ministry?

Leaping from a distortion of Scriptural intent to an accurate Scriptural conclusion is impossible.

[Nic Samojluk]

Leaping from a distortion of Scriptural intent to an accurate Scriptural conclusion is impossible.

Do you mean that it is impossible to determine what our position regarding the ordination of women should be?

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: shelly

Doug,a woman's greatest calling is to do the will of the Father. That is all of our calling. There are plenty examples in the bible of women whose callings had nothing to do with having babies.

Like? Would you consider I Tim.5:14 an illumination of God's will?

Context is the key. This text is about celibacy pledges of young widows. He is advising that they should not do this because they may grow weary and break their vow to God. What does that have to do with your argument that the greatest way they can serve God is to have babies? Timothy is simply making the stand that young widows should be allow to marry and have children rather than be a widow and in service to the church.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes Shelly, context is indeed important. Rather than ripping verse 14 out as a one sizes fits all text for the role of all women for all time, a better understanding is as you have suggested. But further, the whole context of this verse is of significant importance in affirming that indeed women can and did serve as elders in the NT church.

A close reading of the verses regarding widows in 1 Tim. 5 shows that it is not just with regard to widows outside of the context of the council of elders that starts in the immediately preceding verses. The full context is Paul instructing young pastor Timothy about his working relationship with the body or council of elders of the church in Ephesus. It is in this context that Paul actually refers to male elders (presbyteros) and female elders (presbyteros - feminine form) in the council of elders (presbyterion).

After several verses about widows, old and young, Paul appears to reach the conclusion of his instructions about elders, beginning with verse 17. This would seem to indicate that he had not left the topic of elders when he was talking about the widows. In verse 9 the instruction is for the mature widows (over 60) to be included. Included in what? The traditional assumption has been that they should be included in the group receiving aid for widows, as if they are the ones needing to be cared for. But the context does not really support that since Paul speaks rather of these widows' proven piety and their service to others. Verses 9 and 10 about the older godly widows echoes essentially the same standard of qualifications that had been identified as applying to elders, including having been monogamous. What I think Paul is telling Timothy is to recognize (give honor to) these older pious widows who no longer have family obligations by including them among the elders of the church. It is further evidence of the role of women as leaders in the NT church.

What the verse about the younger widows seems to be saying is that Paul had observed that these younger widows acted immature and had not demonstrated their piety or to fulfill their own ability to serve others that would naturally show by being a good wife and mother. The mature widows that had demonstrated the qualification for elder-hood on the same basis as already described.

[doug yowell]

Doug,a woman's greatest calling is to do the will of the Father. That is all of our calling. There are plenty examples in the bible of women whose callings had nothing to do with having babies.

Originally Posted By: shelly

Like? Would you consider I Tim.5:14 an illumination of God's will?

Context is the key. This text is about celibacy pledges of young widows. He is advising that they should not do this because they may grow weary and break their vow to God. What does that have to do with your argument that the greatest way they can serve God is to have babies? Timothy is simply making the stand that young widows should be allow to marry and have children rather than be a widow and in service to the church.

But,in context,Paul is addressing what women should do and there is no mention of the will of God being a head ministry option even if she chooses remarriage. So wouldn't that be a clue about God's will for widows both celibate or not? And notice that the older widows test of true widowhood which preceeds the following verses? I asked you a question which you did not address; 1) List plenty of biblical examples where women's callings had nothing to do with having babies. I'll add three more: 2)What IS the will of the Father for Christian women? 3)How can a woman know what the will of the Father for her is? 4) How can her knowledge of God's will be verified by others in the church.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

According to Paul, God has given both male and female a unique sphere that is different and compliments each other, just as the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son have unique roles within their divine purpose(s).

The role of a pastor is that of a servant. Ministry means service. What is wrong with women being servants?

Jesus came to serve, and He also exercised the "authority" that God gave to Him. A beautiful blend.

An elder is called to serve (Gal 1:10; 2 Timothy 2:24) and to exercise authority (Titus 2:15) and a woman is restricted from having authority over a man (1 Timothy 2:12).

rejoice always,

G

[doug yowell]

Yes Shelly, context is indeed important. Rather than ripping verse 14 out as a one sizes fits all text for the role of all women for all time, a better understanding is as you have suggested.