God's Wrath topic - No mas

[Tom Wetmore]

Due to the embarrassingly immature and uncivil conduct of several participants, I have removed the God's Wrath topic. It was not worth the time to clean up. And it it is too much a mess of un-Christian behavior to lock and leave out here to be even remotely of value.

Enough said. And do not try to restart it.

Global Moderator

[Tom Wetmore]

Since an objection to removing the topic has been made by one person accusing me of censorship, etc. (I have also been thanked for the action...) I think it would be well to post my response for all to see, since that person may be reflecting the view of others. Here is my thoughts on that:

It may be hard to see, but the topic, which I agree is worthwhile, is not being censored. That the discussion of it has been and always seems to be corrupted by the wrath of men, it is removed. Yes, I could edit out the personal attacks and sniping and lack of civility. But experience tells me that it is only a short matter of time before the incivility returns. That is not the fault of the topic. It is very much the fault of the participants. The next alternative would be to ban those participants, rather than the topic. But since the antagonists seem able to discuss other topics with acceptable civility I think that would be too extreme.

I would add the further question for us to give serious reflection and thought - Why does this topic about the fundamental character of the God we serve generate such intense heat? Maybe, God will not have to destroy this earth and the people in it. Maybe we will do that quite on our own. God can then do what He does best, showing His true character. What do you think that would be?

Let's move on to that idea...

[phkrause]

Great post Tom.

[Gibs]

Tom, it could be done as ATS does it, delete the objectional post leaving the posters identity in the left corner and a stop sign where the message was. It seems to be an effective way there. It is a kind of a warning stop sign I think. May be after so many the poster is banned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Agree!!

[JoeMo]

I'm with Tom on this one. I couldn't believe how nasty some of the comments were getting. It was totally appropriate to delete the topic. I was thinking about posting to one of the Mods to consider shutting it down. It was so long and involved that deleting the nasty posts (besides being subjective) would have destroyed its continuity and just angered the people whose posts were deleted.

Good call, Tom!

[cheddar]

Just more stereotypical Christian censorship.

Anything outside of the conservative mindset is worldly or unchristlike.

Any kind of disagreement is the unpardonable sin.

And don’t dare speak of the ‘wrath of God’ anymore! – It is forbidden by Tom!

I’m glad Tom hasn’t banned the bible yet with all the sex and violence in that book – Oy vey!

[olger]

Uhh, Cheddar.........

Tom isn't a conservative, you might well frame your lamentation in another way.

[Tom Wetmore]

Cheddar,

Wouldn't you say a failure to pay attention to and respect what another actually says and/or misrepresenting what they say or do is really a form of censorship?

To disagree is fine and even expected. To be disagreeable is not. That is what makes the difference.

[cheddar]

Cheddar,

Wouldn't you say a failure to pay attention to and respect what another actually says and/or misrepresenting what they say or do is really a form of censorship?

To disagree is fine and even expected. To be disagreeable is not. That is what makes the difference.

So why ban the topic then? - 'And do not try to restart it' (T.W.)

Is God's character that disturbing to most Christians? We need to tell him to shape up, we're civilized sinners down here!

[Felix Florimon]

So why ban the topic then? - 'And do not try to restart it' (T.W.)

Is God's character that disturbing to most Christians? We need to tell him to shape up, we're civilized sinners down here!

No one needs to tell God to shape up. The issue is not His character. The real issue is that most people calling themselves Christians do not dedicate enough time to truly be aware of Jesus Christ's perception of God's character. They are neither very familiar with the writings of the Apostles Paul, John, Peter and James regarding how they felt and experienced everything regarding God's character. Moreover, they then get "emotionally attached" to their view about God and perceive an attack against them when somebody with a different opinion tries to make them change such opinion. Regretfully, this become a source of amusement to non believers coming to see what believers think about God's wrath. Even worse, Satan and his demons feel a great deal of amusement and satisfaction that besides misunderstanding God's character, believers are willing to verbally attack others believers. Therefore, in order to stop becoming a source of amusement to non believers and to Satan, this thread needed to stop. The real problem is that those of us who consider ourselves to be Christians have a real need of learning how to follow Paul's advice: "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (1 Corinthian 10:31).

FF

[M. T. Cross]

Debate, disagreement, passionate discussion - these are all great things. THey encourage growth and learning.

While I was reading the last few pages of the thread in question the other night, my 7 year old and 5 year old were having a disagreement about something. It struck me that they were actually being more mature about it than the things I was reading in that thread. Things posted by adults. Is that really how anyone here wants their faith represented? Is that really how anyone here wants to present your God to the world?

Tom made the right decision IMO, for the greater good.

[CoAspen]

7 and 5 yo? So ye be a young wipper-snapper!!

[M. T. Cross]

Well yeah I am, but I also have kids that are 21 and 19 (turning this year). What happened is the wife and I asked them which one was gonna take care of us when we were old and they both said not me. So we had to have another set to raise properly.........

[Gail]

Tom made a great call and I can tell from the replies on this thread that some at least do understand the issue involved.

[JoeMo]

Felix and MT -

Great, insightful posts. That thread was getting way too nasty. Satan and the less tolerant non-believers on CA must have been getting a real laugh out of it.

Cheddar - it's not God's character that needs to shape up - it is the character of those who post mean and judgmental responses here. If MT's 5 and 7 year-olds can resolve a dispute civilly, shouldn't we as mature Christian adults be able to debate and discuss issues in the same manner?

I'm all for shutting down threads where we can't.

[cheddar]

Cheddar - it's not God's character that needs to shape up - it is the character of those who post mean and judgmental responses here. If MT's 5 and 7 year-olds can resolve a dispute civilly, shouldn't we as mature Christian adults be able to debate and discuss issues in the same manner?

I'm all for shutting down threads where we can't.

I don’t really care much for your tone or moral judgment.

The majority of the posts on the ‘wrath of God’ thread were fairly civil but I do recall that the ‘God doesn’t kill crowd’ were the ones taking the most cheap shots.

The bible doesn’t support their unscriptural viewpoints so they have to resort to any and all spurious theories to support them. I understand that the conservative and legalistic mindset is strong on fear and the wrath of God and this is unfortunate. So many who have come to understand grace want to throw out the baby with the bath water. We should throw out legalism but not God’s character. The old covenant was faulty not him.

Even Ellen White understood God’s character. Was she wrong too?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Cheddar - it's not God's character that needs to shape up - it is the character of those who post mean and judgmental responses here. If MT's 5 and 7 year-olds can resolve a dispute civilly, shouldn't we as mature Christian adults be able to debate and discuss issues in the same manner?

I'm all for shutting down threads where we can't.

I don’t really care much for your tone or moral judgment.

The majority of the posts on the ‘wrath of God’ thread were fairly civil but I do recall that the ‘God doesn’t kill crowd’ were the ones taking the most cheap shots.

* * *

Cheddar, recognize any of these posts?

Quote:

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya

O Lord, kum bay ya.

Jesus would never do anything bad.

Anyone want some smores?

Quote:

Earth to Gibs...Earth to Gibs...You live in a fantasy world.

Quote:

I agree with the prophecy part, it's the fact you're a commandment keeper that's fantasy.

Jesus said 'repent and believe the gospel'. There's one you're not keeping.

Quote:

God showed mercy many, many, many times in the OT. It wasn't all death and destruction.

And he executed justice in the NT - Ananias and Sapphira?

Quote:

This is not light just unbelief pure and simple.

You reject every verse that deals with God's justice and hatred for sin.

In case you haven't figured it out - justice is a part of God's agape love. Ex. 34 is a break-down of agape into the seven attributes of God's character:

1) Merciful

2) Gracious

3) Longsuffering

4) Goodness

5) Truth

6) Forgiveness

7) Retribution

Your version of agape is weak and watered down. Jesus never executed justice on the guilty sinner but he threatened to do it and at the 2nd coming he will. In Rev. 19 it says his garments are dipped in blood and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Doesn’t sound like he’s turning the other cheek anymore.

Quote:

Gross exaggeration because your arguments are weak.

I wonder if you think that God loves Satan? The bible says that God hates iniquity and Satan is the embodiment of sin and iniquity.

Do you think that God actually loves Satan and his fallen angels? They are his enemies after all.

Quote:

No. He doesn’t love Satan.

There may be an argument for separating the sin from the sinner with people but not with Satan and his angels.

They passed the point of no return a long time ago.

Well, I guess you could say that God loves them. He loves them so much he’s going to burn them up in the lake of fire. That’s real love for you right there.

Quote:

You tell ‘em Robert! Stupid wrath lovers. We’re going to force them to see things your way.

We’re going to clean up God and do a nice PR campaign. We’ll make him PG and politically correct so that he would never hurt a fly.

Any verses that say otherwise we’ll twist and wrest so that he’ll come out smelling like roses.

Ellen White did say that in the last days Satan would come and impersonate Jesus. I wonder if he’ll be kind and compassionate or mean and hateful? Is it possible for the father of lies and the murderer from the beginning to warm and loving? Sounds like your version of God. I guess Robert will bow down and worship him when he comes because he’s so nice and speaks only kind words.

Quote:

Exactly! When the so-called morality police try to lobotomize God’s character – the aspect they’re trying to remove is going to get all the attention.

I would be happy to put God’s wrath on the back burner and focus on all the positive aspects of his character as long as it’s understood that that is a part of who he is. But no, so many want to feminize God and make him into a galactic doormat who is actually weaker than his creation.

Quote:

...who cares!

Quote:

Thor would not be pleased...

He might smash with his magic hammer.

Quote:

Off topic as usual.

Quote:

So make your point then and quit beatin' around the bush.

No one wants to play your dumb game.

This is the sum total of your contribution to that topic. Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Robert]

Busted!

cheddar, we went too far. So the moderator was right in doing what he did. Maybe another day, with some rules from the moderator going into it, we can revisit this important subject! This subject, "the wrath of God" and "does God kill?" are one of the most viewed subjects on CA.

But for now we messed up. The flesh wants to be right even in spiritual things. Why? Pride and the love self. We can sin even if what we say is correct. We got busted!

[cheddar]

So which posts crossed the line? And why are mine the only ones singled out? That’s rather biased.

This is not crossing the line. Crossing the line would be talking about Ellen White’s nose and how it looks like it needs a cow ring in it! LOL Didn’t they have any good looking women back in the 1800’s? I wonder what rock Jesus found her under. No wonder she hated pork – too much of a family resemblance!

Let’s see how your so-called love deals with an insulter of your beloved prophet. This forum bores me. All the crazy people left and they were the most fun.

[Gibs]

Well Cheddar, like they say, beauty is in the eyes of the belolder. James White loved her and from all indications cherished her. And for Jesus picking her, he looks at the beauty of the heart of love that He saw in her.

I love her and don't care what her physical appearance is, but I'll bet cha she'll be very beautiful when resurreced in the first resurrection which I have faith she will be in.

Hey we all will be if we just make sure we are in it, and we can do that today and right now.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Naomi]

Gibs, thank you!

[Guest]

Hey we all will be if we just make sure we are in it, and we can do that today and right now.

Amen!

[Tom Wetmore]

So which posts crossed the line? And why are mine the only ones singled out? That’s rather biased.

Well, starting with the first one and ending with the last one - most of them. Maybe 2 or 3 at most had anything resembling a positive substantive contribution to the topic.

And why single out yours only? Because at this point you alone are continuing to challenge the propriety of the moderator action taken and posturing as if you are protesting from a position of the moral high ground of having done nothing inappropriate and having done nothing to contribute to the deterioration of the tone of topic that derailed it into decidedly unchristian personal attacks and juvenile sniping.

Time to look in the mirror.

Originally Posted By: cheddar

This is not crossing the line. Crossing the line would be talking about Ellen White’s nose and how it looks like it needs a cow ring in it! LOL Didn’t they have any good looking women back in the 1800’s? I wonder what rock Jesus found her under. No wonder she hated pork – too much of a family resemblance!

Let’s see how your so-called love deals with an insulter of your beloved prophet. This forum bores me. All the crazy people left and they were the most fun.

You have seen it already.

Insulting a dead woman...

You are forgiven. That is what love does.

[JoeMo]

Gibs and Tom,

NICE! What a beautiful witness!

Cheddar ... Never mind.