Clio Posted May 26, 2005 Posted May 26, 2005 This post was in response to a question on the Revelation Tidbit thread. Ed has requested, and it makes perfect sense, that we have a thread devoted to just this chapter. It does make for better clarity as we look into this topic. I hope any who choose to comment on this post don't have near the trouble understanding my conclusions and beliefs that Ed does. I do try to be clear in my writing. If you truly can't make heads nor tails of it, please don't hesitate to ask. Dave - If you see this, I'm very much looking forward to your understanding of Revelation 17. Bravus or Greg Mathews, please keep an eye on this thread. I don't want it to turn into a vituperative debate that I've seen on other threads. FWIW - Anyone who chooses to post in this thread, with their ideas, beliefs, and understandings - if it gets mean, I will be asking the moderators to delete the post. The whole thread if necessary. I will not allow something I write to cause dissension, dispute, and disharmony with regard to the Testimony of Jesus and the Word of Abba Father. clio ********************************************************************** First, the vision that begins in Revelation 13:1 doesn't conclude until the end of Revelation chapter 16. Then in Revelation Chapter 17 the angel begins to explain to John the vision he just had. Notice in 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The angel here is talking about the beast we saw coming up out of the sea in 13:1! Verse 8 tells us some important things about the beast. It will go into perdition. It rises from the bottomless pit, people who dwell on the earth, and whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will marvel at it, for it was, is not, and yet is. These are all actions that will occur... but are not true clues to who... or what... this beast is. Those come in Verse 9. Revelation 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth Ok... now... we know Bible symbolism a woman ALWAYS represents a church... church not being a denomination, but the full body of believers who offer true worship to the Most High, and whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Therefore, the woman sitting on the 7 hills the Whore of Babylon, is a religious system that offers false worship to the Most High... the opposite of the woman arrayed in white linen. The seven heads are seven mountains... or oros in greek which can also mean hills... So for the mind which has wisdom... we are looking at a false religious system sitting on seven mountains or hills... Beasts are always kingdoms... So we have a beast representing a sovereign political system situated in a place of 7 hills or mountains. There is only one city in all the world that is known for it's 7 hills. The city of Rome. Situated in the very heart of Rome ON TOP OF THE 7 HILLS, is Vatican City... represented by the woman in scarlet and purple... Interestingly enough... there are some attributes of the Vatican we should consider. The Vatican is a sovreign entity. The Pope is the equivalent of a secular head of state, the cardinals are called Princes of the Church and are the equivalent of any prince of royal blood in the crowned houses of Europe. The colors of the cardinals are scarlet and purple. The Vatican has a seat on all the UN councils except the Security Council, where it can still issue advisory opinions. In 1798, the beast which was... became not... when the then pope was taken in battle in Avignon France and later died as a result of wounds received with a sword while in captivity. The then Pope was also the "head" so this beast was wounded in the head, with a grievous wound. In 1980, Ronald Reagan was the first of any nation in the world to send a plenipotentiary ambassador to the Vatican, acknowledging it's sovereignty, and treating it as a sovereign state, with "all the rights and appurtenances thereto". The beast was, is not, and is again. Therefore this beast is a religio-political system upon which the Whore or False Church sits. And she sits on many waters... which are explained in 17:15. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. What religious system, that can be personified by false worship covers peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues? The global RCC claims sovereignity over 1 BILLION + people! 1/6th of all the earth.... Revelation 17:18 is even more explicity And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Another interesting item about the Vatican, is that until it's power was broken in 1798... the crowned heads of state from Russia to England ruled at the pleasure of the Pope. He had the authority to excommunicate them and authorize Holy War to remove a crowned king for the spiritual benefit of the subjects that king ruled. It happened many times in the Wars of the Roses between English branches of the royal family, and drew in the Kings of France in the 100 years war. Even the Magna Carta on which are laws are based did little to put a stop to the Pope's meddling in English and French politics. It is why Kings and Queens in Europe are still crowned and blessed by Arch-Bishops at a minimum. Cardinals if they can be had. The reason there is an Anglican communion in England is because John Plantagenet who was the younger brother of Richard the Lion Heart was excommunicated by the Pope. Rather than allow his throne to be taken by Catholic King Louis of France, he formed the "Church of England" and fought for his throne. It was because of this war that his barons were able to get him to sign the Magna Carta. In exchange for this, they agreed that John or the ruling head of state would also always be head of the Church of England... which has since become known as the Anglican Communion. clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Guest Posted May 26, 2005 Posted May 26, 2005 "In the seventeenth chapter of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."--7BC 983. This chapter depicts in detail the battle of Armageddon, pointing out the participants on the two opposing sides and revealing the outcome. This last decisive battle between the hosts of darkness led by Satan, and Christ and His people will be fought under the sixth plague (Rev. 16:12-16). Since the angel who presented to the prophet John this view of the judgment to be meted out to Babylon-the great system of false and apostate religions (GC 381)-is one of the angels having the seven last plagues, it is reasonable to assume that this is the angel with the 6th vial to be poured out upon the "Great River Euphrates,"symbol of Babylon, the ancient city through which this river flowed. This chapter (Rev. 17) has probably been the cause of more perplexity and speculation that any other in the entire book. But God has promised to give knowledge and understanding of these truths to those who seek, and in this very chapter we find the assurance, "Here is the mind that hath wisdom."(17:9). Quote
Clio Posted May 31, 2005 Author Posted May 31, 2005 I was really looking forward to others understanding of Revelation 17. Is there no one who is willing to post their understanding? Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Guest Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Quote: I was really looking forward to others understanding of Revelation 17. Is there no one who is willing to post their understanding? Clio %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% My dear the unvarnished truth is staring you right in the eyes in my post above on Revelation 17, why must you seek the "forbidden fruit" varity? I think I read of another account of a lady out shopping without her husband. Quote
Morning Glory Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Hi Clio, I just now saw this thread. I have been studying Rev of late, but am not quite to chap 17. I will study up on it and post my thoughts. I have a tendency to not read real lengthy posts......so that is why I haven't commented prior to this. I really appreciate someone taking a non-confrontational stance on this important topic. Quote Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life.
there buster Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Quote: I was really looking forward to others understanding of Revelation 17. Is there no one who is willing to post their understanding? Gresham's Law has taken its toll. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Clio Posted June 1, 2005 Author Posted June 1, 2005 And that law is? Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Morning Glory Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Patience, Ed. I am willing after I know what to write. I'll try to do so tomorrow. Quote Kindness is the oil that takes the friction out of life.
jasd Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 It is said that a pennyworth’s doin’ is mor’n a pound o’ guff; so, here’s following…, mebbe a ha’pennyworth to begin. Well, it seems that those who rely upon the construct that the bottomless pit of Revelation 20 is metaphoric prison earth for the binding of the old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan”, --are faced with an incongruity, if the beast of Revelation 17:8 arises from the 'earth-as-bottomless-pit'? It hardly seems that the ‘bottomless pit’ can be both an earth --blasted and barren of life (Rev 20:1-3), and yet also, --peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (Rev 17:8). And, not forgetting, the BEAST the woman sat upon IS many WATERS; that is, peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (verse 15). A correspondence to the United Nations, perhaps? Might it not be a bit precipitous to say that a woman always represents a church? I recall that Gd called cities, as well as national entities ‘women’. Do you suppose that the mountains might represent nations, tribal units or ethnicities, corporations, consortiums, or other? rather than literal hills or mountains? regardless, that James and EGW referred to the seven mountains of Jerusalem, and Moscow also sits on seven rises (hills)… Interestingly, Russia fancies itself the third kingdom of Rome, even to its flag featuring the double-headed eagle of czarism/Caesarism -- center, a field of red (and which same Russia, wielding the apparatus -- USSR, slaughtered 50-60 million Xtians [which same number attributed to papist Rome is impossible to substantiate]), etc. Does the woman really represent the Vatican, insofar as the word MYSTERY is attributed to her…? I mean, if Hislop and others did not misrepresent the Vatican, they together, laid bare all of her (Vatican) so-called ‘mystery’. It then follows that ‘mystery’ can no longer characterize the Vatican, can it? whereas, at least several other entities, The Federal Reserve, Freemasonry, and others… truly remain mysteries. (It might be interesting to note that what were before --Senators of Rome, are now cardinals of Rome) There is another City, which reigneth over the ‘kings of the earth’; it is the chartered City of London (within the environs of London proper), --world center of commerce and finance, --which is more in keeping with Revelation 18; notably per, …where are the pope’s fleets whereby, ‘he wast made rich’. Revelation 17 is indeed, a repository of treasures proving difficult to understand. What most intrigues me is, --how it is that the 144,000 are declared to be in the heaven of heavens --before the throne of Gd (chapter 14), and those also, who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name,… (chapter15) --before the events of chapter 17. Quote
Robert Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits." [Rev 17:9] []http://www.abvg.net/Plovdiv/images/image2.jpg[/] Quote
jasd Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Rev 17:1 …Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters;… v3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast,… v15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues, … >>”… The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits." [Rev 17:9]<< “Revelation 17 is indeed, a repository of treasures proving difficult to understand.” Moscow's seven hills: Borovitsky Hill (The Kremlin occupies it [translated from Greek, Kremlin means “a steep hill”] ) Tverskoi (the name of Moscow’s main street, which runs across it) Sretenski (one of the cities oldest streets is the Sretenski) Vorobyovy Gory [sparrow hills] --formerly Lenin Hills (University of Moscow occupies it) Trekhgorye (group of three hills) Vagankievsky (or Tagansky) -- and Lefortovo (or Lefortovsky) hills --crown the Yauza river Quote
jasd Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 erratum: “(and which same Russia, wielding the apparatus -- USSR, slaughtered 50-60 million Xtians [which same number attributed to papist Rome is impossible to substantiate])” …50-60 million total, of which Xtians, as a group, were systematically eradicated… the State being, on the face of it, atheistic, and all. Quote
Robert Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Post deleted by Gregory Matthews [This post goes beyond what is allowed in CA--GM.] Quote
jasd Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Post deleted by Gregory Matthews [When I delete a post, I often delete the responses to that post--GM.] Quote
Clio Posted June 7, 2005 Author Posted June 7, 2005 Robert... Stop that. This is not a place for personal attacks. If You can't stop this whole thread will stop. Jasd has some good points... If you have something different, let's see it... without personal comments or attacks. This thread is specifically about Revelation 17... nothing else. Clio [i have deleted Robert's posts--GM.] Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Clio Posted June 7, 2005 Author Posted June 7, 2005 He didn't in this thread. Don't go there. Last warning. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Clio Posted June 7, 2005 Author Posted June 7, 2005 After taking wicklunds poll in another forum, and finding myself reading Samuele's newsletter.... These two paragraphs jumped out at me: The second study, to be posted in the next newsletter, will deal with the seven heads beast of Revelation 17. The author is Jon Paulien, Ph. D., Chairman of the NT Department of Andrews University Theological Seminary. Personally, I regard Prof. Paulien as the foremost Adventist eschatologist. He promised to deliver me his essay by the end of this week so that I can post it next week by June 13-14, 2005. You will be delighted and enlightened by Paulien's responsible interpretation of Revelation 17. During the past few weeks I received scores of fanciful intepretations of the seven-heads beast of Revelation 17, some applying them to the last seven popes. I am pleased that a foremost Adventist authority on apocalyptic prophecies, will lead us into a responsible interpretation of this much-discussed chapter. I promise to post Prof. Paulien's essay next week as soon as I receive it. I do hope, that everyone who cares to posts their personal study of Revelation 17 before this comes out... It will be fun to see where our individual studies have led us, and then to see what "official" eschatological scholars have to say. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Clio Posted June 8, 2005 Author Posted June 8, 2005 Quote: jasd said: Rev 17:1 …Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters ;… v3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast ,… v15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues, … I was talkin' to Jesus this morning and ponderin' what jasd pointed out about the whore not just sitting on 7 hills but also upon many waters... which as we can see above is defined as peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. This scarlet woman is a very interesting entity. She sits on a beast with 7 heads, which the Angel specifically says are 7 hills. Not 7 groups of hills as with Moscow, but 7 hills. She also sits on many peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. I don't believe either of those are inconsistent with each other or with the corporate entity commonly called Rome, but specifically the Vatican. There is no doubt... look at any map of Rome... that the Vatican sits atop 7 hills... There is also no doubt that she encompasses multitudes... over 1 Billion of the entire world's population... that's one sixth of humanity alive today. And her power has waned tremendously since 1798... although it is on the upswing again... note Benedict's oh so gracious offer to discuss re-unification with all Rome's "daughter" churches. While Moscow, seat of the old USSR, encompassed nations, tongues, and peoples, in the face of what Rome encompasses, even at it's greatest height, the USSR comes off a paltry second best. As for the martyrdom of the saints.... keep in mind the Inquisition of the RCC functioned openly, backed by force of arms, from 538 to 1798. That's 1260 years. Isn't that an interesting number? It also meets the criteria of a time prophecy that is complete prior to 1844 when prophetic events are no longer related to time. At least according to my current understanding. It is not inconceivable to me, that even without records, more than the 60 million murdered by the USSR, were murdered by the Inquisition. Does anyone else have anything they want to add? I'd like to hear more from jasd on why he thinks Moscow and Russia might fit the definition laid out in this chapter by the explaining angel. Clio This is fun... anyone else want to post some thoughts on this chapter? Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Nicodema Posted June 9, 2005 Posted June 9, 2005 Turn around, go back down Back the way you came Can't you see that flash of fire Ten times brighter than the day? And behold, a mighty city Broken in the dust again Oh God, pride of man Broken in the dust again Turn around, go back down, back the way you came, Babylon is laid to waste Egypt's buried in her shame, The mighty men are all beaten down Their kings are fallen in the way Oh God, Pride of Man Broken in the dust again. Turn around, go back down, back the way you came, Terror is on every side And all our leaders are dismayed! For those who place their faith in fire And by their faith shall be repaid Oh God, Pride of Man Broken in the dust again. Turn around, go back down, back the way you came, And shout a warning unto the nation That the sword of God is raised. Yes, Babylon, that mighty city, Rich in treasures, wide in fame Oh God, Pride of Man Broken in the dust again. The meek shall cause your tower to fall Make of you a pyre of flame, Oh you who dwell on many waters Rich in treasures, wide in fame. You bow unto your God of gold Your pride of might shall be your shame, For only God can lead His people Back unto the Earth again! Oh God, Pride of Man Broken in the dust again! Thy holy mountain be restored, Have mercy on thy people, Thy people, Lord! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service, "Pride of Man" Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
Nicodema Posted June 9, 2005 Posted June 9, 2005 Gresham's law is stated as: "Bad money drives good money out of circulation". Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_Law Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
Clio Posted June 9, 2005 Author Posted June 9, 2005 Thanks, And I really, really enjoyed your post above this one... Still pondering it... and the message it brings to mind. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Nicodema Posted June 10, 2005 Posted June 10, 2005 It's the lyrics to an old tune by Quicksilver Messenger Service -- they were a band from the late 1960s. Glad you liked it. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
jasd Posted July 10, 2005 Posted July 10, 2005 Clio, I was looking for your excellent post on Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, the Marys, the siblings of Jesus, etc… and found the deleted posts above; I’d forgotten them ;-) aiee, my chicken head, --that’s par for me... Anyway, where is the post, Clio? (I’d neglected to paste it to files and would like to catch up now…) If it is off the page, perhaps, you’d post it here? and why not? …I don’t have a problem with off-topics. By the way, is there nothing further to add to this thread? Also, where is your Gog and Magog thread? Will you be expanding upon it? Am looking forward to your take -- as I recall that you’d mentioned you’d be dwelling further upon the subject. Re: lyrics -- Quicksilver Messenger Service, "Pride of Man" Disturbingly haunting. Quote
Clio Posted July 12, 2005 Author Posted July 12, 2005 Hello jasd. I will email you my files. I am however, at work at the moment, and my files are at home. Or... I may go ahead and add them to the compendium of knowledge here. It may not be this evening. But I will get them to you. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
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