Going to an ordination !!!

[doug yowell]

Yes, we can all be deceived. That applies to you as much as me, or Laz or whomever you wish. That should make one very cautious about knee-jerk reactions of condemnation to what someone else claims to have experienced. Ones reaction may well be as much a deception as the subjective perception of the observation of, or testimony of another's experience.

That is my point. You really cannot judge what Laz has testified to if you were not there or knowing his mind and heart. Nor can you be so certain that your interpretation and perception is not falsely biased.

Perhaps you didn't read my comments carefully. I said IF WO was NOT in harmony with Biblical principles then the feelings of the Lord's presence (a positive)at an ordination ceremony (which He forbid in Scripture) would be a scarey self-deception.It should follow that if it was in harmony with God's expressed will then the feelings should be justified. WO is strictly a question of whether it is or is not in harmony with God's Biblical principles.Since I believe it is not it is only natural that I would question the conclusion of Laz'a feelings,not the feeling itself.If the WO movement is not in harmony with God's plan for His church then what would you conclude about one's feeling that He was giving it His whole hearted approval? So we have not heavenly instruction on this phenom?

[CoAspen]

Laz-

Quote:

Very spiritual and uplifting experience. I certainly felt the presence of the Lord was there.

1.He mentions experience.

2.He mentions a feeling.

Which are you questioning, one or both?

Quote:

....in harmony with God's Biblical principles.Since I believe it is not it is only natural that I would question the conclusion of Laz'a feelings,not the feeling itself.

Say what? His conclusion and feeling are one and the same! "I felt(feeling)" and what did he 'felt', the "presence of Lord"(feeling).

Quote:

I said IF WO was NOT in harmony with Biblical principles then the feelings of the Lord's presence (a positive)at an ordination ceremony (which He forbid in Scripture) would be a scarey self-deception.

You say "IF" and then in the same sentence you say "(which He forbid in Scripture)...which is it?? You are really saying that Laz, and others that feel the same, are self decepted.

Just come out and say it, your opinion which you are entitled too! But remember, it is an opinion just as others have their opinions on this subject. All opinions are being based on the same scriptures, just different interpretations.

The one thing I would say, it might not be so good to question anothers experience with the H*S simply because my interpretation of the Bible is different.

[Tom Wetmore]

...The one thing I would say, it might not be so good to question anothers experience with the H*S simply because my interpretation of the Bible is different.

Precisely the point I have been trying to make!

Even some in very high places have observed that the H*S could not be in certain groups actions or discussions. As here it was concluded that because there was such a strong difference of opinion or interpretation of Scripture on this that the H*S could only be on one side of or the other.

Here is my view on that question that has been batted around here and elsewhere about where the H*S is on this issue. I believe that the H*S is working on both sides of this debate. The H*S is seeking to resolve the issue once and for all. For decades, perhaps since the very beginning of this Church, many have sought to avoid this issue and put a decision off until another day. In a real sense, indecision is worse than making the wrong decision. That this issue will not go away and is being pressed on more hearts and minds strongly suggests to me the prompting of the H*S. It is time to get off the fence is the message of the H*S to both sides. Stop waving and make a decision and move forward.

And just in case some think I am off my rocker, may I suggest doing a word search in EGW's writings on the making decisions and specifically the word "indecision". Here is just one of many:

Quote:

Long delays tire the angels. It is even more excusable to make a wrong decision sometimes than to be continually in a wavering position; to be hesitating, sometimes inclined in one direction, then in another. More perplexity and wretchedness result from thus hesitating and doubting than from sometimes moving too hastily. {GW92 97.2}

I have been shown that the most signal victories and the most fearful defeats have been on the turn of minutes. God requires promptness of action. Delays, doubtings, hesitation, and indecision frequently give the enemy every advantage. . . . {GW92 97.3}

I think this Church has some very tired angels...

[Jeannieb43]

Tom, you say "indecision is worse than making the wrong decision." In most cases, I would agree.

But when it comes to women's ordination, I believe the General Conference officials should make no decision. According to the Church Manual, it is the local conferences which have the power[and duty] of ordination. They are in close contact with the various candidates, and it is for the local conference that that newly ordained minister will be working.

I wish Ted and his minions would get off their high horses and leave this issue alone. Sure, some parts of the world field feel women should not be placed in positions of leadership; this is a totally culture-based feeling. We should let them make their own decisions regarding WO. But in the USA, Germany and Australia, for instance, women have long been leaders. For the GC to attempt to usurp the rights of the local conferences [and Union conferences] is totally unGodlike. Christ said "Let every man be convinced in his own mind." We should not presume to compel others to think the same way we do; we should allow the Holy Spirit's work to rule in the workings of our churches and local conference organizations.

We are not asking the General Conference for 'permission.' Their permission is not needed.

[bTW, I was a commissioned missionary [i think that was the title of the SDA credentials I carried when working for the church] years ago. I never aspired to become an ordained minister -- and now that I'm turning 80, I still have no desire for that goal personally. This is not a personal campaign for me; it's just something I feel is RIGHT.]

[Jeannieb43]

I misquoted the Bible verse. It should have been "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

[Jeannieb43]

The scripture I quoted is found in Rom. 14:5.

[The edit feature is too brief -- I was unable to add this to the post.]

[lazarus]

WO is strictly a question of whether it is or is not in harmony with God's Biblical principles.Since I believe it is not it is only natural that I would question the conclusion of Laz'a feelings,not the feeling itself.If the WO movement is not in harmony with God's plan for His church then what would you conclude about one's feeling that He was giving it His whole hearted approval? So we have not heavenly instruction on this phenom?

In essence you are saying that God's presence is never felt in a place when people are not in complete harmony with his word.