This is To Explore, The Cup of His Indignation

[Gibs]

I had put in Indignation in the search of my KJV Bible software and I got 41 hits. Now all are not of God's indignation and it is interresting to note as you go through them and see the reason for His indignation and the severity of the one used. Not all are the same.

The one used in Dan 8:19 is the strongest one. The cup of His indignation comes up in Rev 14:10 and indignation definition gives there is,

or-gay'

from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

Now a bit of Sister White's see of it,

"In the Revelation, John says, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Revelation 11:19. John saw in vision the Lord's people looking for His coming and searching for truth. As the temple of God was opened unto His people, the light of the law of God, which was in the ark, shone forth. Those who receive this light are brought to view in the proclamation of the third angel's message. {4BC 1152.4}

This angel is seen flying in the midst of heaven, "saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. . . . Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." {4BC 1152.5}

Once you peruse the reasons found for His indignation do you not find Him righteous?

I think it is a good study to show that Love, God does rightfully have powerful indignation for the right reasons and cause.

I pray all be blessed in your perusal of this.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

At one point Ellen White speaks of being made capable of viewing the wrath of God - and she was quite moved by the whole thing. And she says with amazement that some people view it as though it were no more important than a drop of rain.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin Straub]

Please provide quote.

I agree that this subject is vital. It is pivotal to our experience and it is core curriculum for the final generation elect who have a part in the ending of the great controversy.

See FE 444.2 to know what is the subject of the advancing light.

[Gibs]

“I was then pointed to the flattering things taught by some of these transgressors of God's law. I was shown also a bright light, given by God to guide all who would walk in the way of salvation, and also to serve as a warning to the sinner to flee from the wrath of God, and yield a willing obedience to his claims. While this light should continue, there would be hope; but there would be a time when it would cease,—when he that is holy will remain holy forever, and when he that is filthy will remain filthy forever. When Jesus stands up, when his work is finished in the most holy, then not another ray of light will be imparted to the sinner. {LS88 341.1}

“But Satan flatters some, through his chosen servants, as he flattered Eve in Eden, ‘Thou shalt not surely die;’ and tells them there will be a season for repentance, a time of probation when the filthy can be made pure. The co-workers with Satan and his angels carry the light into the future age, teaching probation after the advent of Christ, which deludes the sinner, and leads the cold-hearted professor to carnal security. They become careless and indifferent, and walk stumblingly over the hours of their probation. The light is made to reach far ahead, where all is total darkness. Michael stands up. Instead of mercy, the deluded sinner feels wrath unmixed with mercy, having awakened too late to the fatal deception. This plan was studied by Satan, and is carried out by ministers who turn the truth of God into a lie.”

Make sure what you receive from any minister, preacher is vital TRUTH. Only the Truth will set one free to find the true way of salvation. Christians are becoming far too gullable to lap up the smooth teaching for the itching ears.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

<<<SIGH!>>> Why do we spend so much time trying to "scare" people into submission using the wrath of God as a weapon? Didn't Paul ask "Don't you know that it is the kindness of God that draws us to repentance?" All this talk of God's wrath just makes people afraid of Him and angry. Do you like to think about your "not so holy" friends and relatives burning in the lake of fire? How much (or little) does it take to incur God's wrath? If I read most of Gibs' posts correctly - not much, since so many of us are so evil.

I agree that God's wrath must be awful beyond imagination; but is that wrath and indignation aimed at us, His children, or satan and his minions? The scripture I read says God desires that none perish; that He wants to save us all.

FEAR empowers the devil in the same way that FAITH empowers God.

[Robert]

The cup of His indignation

[Robert]

<<<SIGH!>>> Why do we spend so much time trying to "scare" people into submission using the wrath of God as a weapon?

[Gibs]

JM and Robert, the fact is to balance out the understanding is to also know the penalty of disobedience, sin if you will. It is only the minority that are of the obedient.

Now Daniel tells us what His indignation in the last end of things is and of course that will be the end of God having to have indignation. What is it He is so indignant of? To see what His last end indignation is only takes looking up the Hebreww meaning for "indignation" for Dan 8:19

Now there is two things Dan tells us here, the end is an appointed time and this is the last end of His indignation. Does He have a right to have indignation? Yes He does and all knees will bow in the end and acknowledge that.

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Oh yes I would and you all would like to see the end of it! We can't hurry it, you see it is an appointed time. But I am sure most know it is very near future as all the signs are telling us, we are pounded with them all around us. I am sure the wise see this.

How can Love have indignation? That is a good question. But just think about it a little. In love let us say you bought your son whom you love so much a new car and told him the only requirement was to keep it up as it should be in the manual and then he gets it and does nothing to keep it in shape and actually has it all beat up in no time, the engine shot from no oil change and punchers the radiator but drove it anyway 10 miles to a garage and done in the engine completly.

Indignation begins in you as you see this and you go buy him another and he does the same thing.

Is your indignation not now hot? I think so even if you are a very rich man as we know our Father in Heaven is rich.

But this was just a couple of cars for the son, it didn't cost him much at all, but we are sons of God, we are in this thing to overcome the devil and He has given us all that heaven can give that we may do that and instead we say it is too much. It's like the son of yours with the cars, don't want to do nothing. It is saying, come on now, just give it to me, you are rich, it won't hurt you.

You must see this, the indignation used in Dan 8:19 is the last end of God's displeasure with sin. He hates sin, disobedience. There is no reason for it. It only amounts to rebellion against what is right and of love.

We are spurning, rejecting with disdain, if you will, His Love!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

OK my son ruins a car or two - so I KILL him by burning him to death. That's called child abuse and murder! WOW! That shows a real loving heavenly father. You ask "Is your indignation not now hot?"

You bet it's hot! In another thread you imply that my daughter is lost because she doesn't keep a 7th day sabbath, in spite of the fact that she is a more Christian than a jaded person like me would ever hope to be. In yet another you imply that the church is compromising because they encourage young people to participate. And now you tell a story about a Father who should abandon or kill His son? You probably don't know, but I have already lost a son -my oldest son is DEAD! He died almost 7 years ago; and still, every time I think of it, my heart is pierced.It was the worst thing that ever happened to me! Was he perfect - NO! Did he go through a rebellious time - YES! Did I love him? WITH ALL MY HEART! Will I ever forget him? - NEVER! Am I near as loving as my heavenly Father? NO! Will He ever forget me? God has said:

“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast

and have no compassion on the child she has borne?

Though she may forget,

I will not forget you!

See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;

your walls are ever before me.

You go ahead and preach your vindictive, indignant, angry little god; and may the real God - the God of mercy who is slow to anger and full of compassion show His mercy and love; and convert your heart.

[Robert]

JM and Robert, the fact is to balance out the understanding is to also know the penalty of disobedience, sin if you will. It is only the minority that are of the obedient.

And you just happen to be one of the obedient ones, right?

I think that your desire is to scare us into obedience, which is in reality, disobedience. Fear of hell or hope of reward is equivalent to open apostasy says Ellen White.

[Robert]

You ask "Is your indignation not now hot?" You bet it's hot! In another thread you imply that my daughter is lost because she doesn't keep a 7th day sabbath, in spite of the fact that she is a more Christian than a jaded person like me would ever hope to be.

[Gibs]

No Robert it isn't to try to scare anyone into obedience, true obedience isn't gotten that way. True obedience comes from the love we have for Him and right. It is a matter of pleasing the one we love. We Have taken the Law into our hearts and it is done as our desire, no yoke or binding to it.

And JM, no I don't imagine you would harm your son, I gave you a parable only to show you Love has a right to have indignation. I think you would maybe withold buying him another car and let him go out and buy and earn one by his own sweat.

JM and Robert, there is not a one of us who need have any fear of God's indignation upon us as He has made the way for us to avoid it. His indignation is only against sin and rebellion toward Him.

He only requires us to fully surrender self, be broken, dead of self and He then takes His abode in your soul temple that you have emptied of self as master. He now can be the Master you need to empower and guide you to know the wiles of Satan and Power to have the victory.

He works with you and does the work, you only need cooperate. It is a pleasure is it not to please Him and do His Will? You now have a new heart and new desires, because you are now a new creature in Him.

We should come to hate sin as He does. We should come to see it as grievious as He does.

You ultimately must know what it takes is Love, how much do we truly love Him? People talk Love all the time, well it's time to show it.

It isn't hard to prove how much you Love Him. He gave you the answer to that one.

Please don't continue to try and lead this thread in a debate as that is not the goal here.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

As imperfect as we are, we can hate the mistakes our children make; and still love our children unconditionally. How much more so is our heavenly Father able to do that for us. Yet the "frozen chosen", judgmental, legalistic people who are incapable of remembering the folly of their youth feel like they have the right to rebuke and discourage our children right out of the church. I'm DONE with legalism and rebuke - you can keep it up if you want. Some of the things you say tend to discourage people - especially those who haven't been around the block yet. You would do well to preach positive encouragement rather than fear "Indignation" (name of this thread) and continuous rebuke.

Robert,

Thank you for your kind words of comfort and encouragement. I appreciate you showing the kind of agape love you so often speak of to someone you don't know. God bless you, my friend; and keep preaching love and hope.

[Gibs]

Well JM, I can see you will not see as myself and Sister White see this thing of us in this world we came into not of our choice but for me I'm so glad I came about and was not aborted like millions of babies are being killed each yr.

Yet many of these see no sin in what they have done. Now is that Love. You bet I believe in Love as the topmost and most important aspect of our coming and obtaining salvation.

I can see you are braced to not receive my council but others have and I have gotten compliments. You see I don't hate or dislike you, you are a fellow traveler in this sphere that has fallen. My thing is to spread the truth as it is in the SOP and the Holy Word of my Saviour.

I am not of legalism and do not care for that title as it is wrong. You and Robert throw strong remarks back at me I don't deserve, but it is not my way to retaliate.

I was attempting to show that Love has a right to have indignation and it sure does.

Check out the story of Eli and his sons and see God's take of that way of raising up young people.

We must have balance, it is love that disciplines for the good of the one being disciplined.

We must recognize when we are disciplined and His Spirit condemns us for some sin.

We prove our love for Him by doing His will, not our carnal wills.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Yeah - whatever Gibs. I don't want to be in your sphere. I've been there and it's not a good place.

[Gibs]

JoeMo, But we can't excape the fact you and I are in the same sphere here now for a bit longer, we don't know how long. We are going to in the end escape it one way or the other though. Yes by eternal life or eternal death.

My topic here is on the subject of His cup of indignation. Yes Love is involved believe it or not. Love disciplines and God is Love in the Highest and Greatest. He wants us to Love Him with ALL our hearts and souls.

Now what must be seen is this, He can not and does not have any indignation for anyone who truly does love Him with all the heart and soul. Because that one does His Will out of that Love and Loves to do it. And Jesus echoed that in the statement He made, Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. In other words, PROVE it!

You know and I know, if we do Truly Love Him with ALL our hearts and souls we will do just that, LOVE DOES IT!

Can He afford to take any into His Kingdom who would jeapardize it again with the bloom of sin and rebellion. No! It will never bloom there, He will make absolute sure of it, this reign of sin has been extremely costly to Him.

Now do you not see from just the little example above that His indignation against sin and rebellion is exonerated?

Sin and rebellion is an ugly thing against the great and benevolent and loving God that we have to do with. But moreso that He has to do with us and sin and rebellion. What are we to expect He can and must do with this situation?

Love must extinguish it to never rise again of course!

We should deplore ourselves when we sin and not put it off as something small in His eyes. It is not and it must not be in our eyes also. I'm with Sister White and she said and I echo it, "I HATE SIN!" But I love God and Jesus Christ with all my heart and soul!

May all find peace in Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kevin Straub]

Gibs, God's indignation, wrath, anger, jealousy, retribution, judgment, ALL of it, is not to be seen in any way, shape or form as akin to man's acting out of these things. You see, the Bible defines God's wrath as the hiding of His face, when His creatures turn to other gods. The thing is, His government is established on the twin principles of freedom of choice and non-coercion. So, the free moral agent is given the ability and the right to choose other gods. It is really too bad for them that there are no other gods, because God would be a gentleman and let them go over. But even though there are no gods and He has tried in every way to convince them of this, He still lets them go over. This is wrath. The results aren't good. In order for a god to be a god, He must be self-sustaining and in fact, all-sustaining. He is the Prime Mover, before Whom nothing exists and in Whom all things exist and are upheld.

So, we can say that God's wrath results in punishment and death when He gives the sinner over to the no gods, to self governance. God does not have to lift a finger in creating any proactive destructive element; He does not use WMD's. He did not kill any person or group of people at any time in His history, nor will He in the future. Does God destroy and kill according to the Bible? Yes. But we have to get behind the language and define what it means and how it is done. The mechanism is giving over. Don't forget I told you so when it all becomes evident to you.

That is why God's ways are not men's ways, nor anything like them. Man does not uphold and sustain others by virtue of life-giving power moving in them. For a man to give up another man will not kill Him. For God to exercise His justice in the giving up of a man to his choice to NOT have God, will kill him, but not because God killed him, but because he chose to unplug from the Source of life and God will grant the freedom of choice and allow it to have its results. This is His strange act.

Did God instruct ancient Israel in the use of violence? Oh, yes. Was this God's will. Not a bit. That's another discussion, but for now, think of this: Did God want Israel to have a king? Oh, no. Did He choose a king for them? Yep. Did you know the Bible says that this was wrath? Hosea 13:11.

[Gibs]

Kevin, I can agree with some of your logic but not all. God, Yah. makes His own statement here and it can't be misconstrued.

But first did you ever look up "indignation" used in Dan 8:19?

Yah's statement,

De 32:39 ¶ See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Remember too, Satan doesn't bring himself to ashes, only the Creator can do that and the same goes for our spirits, our body is just our dwelling place. God only can do away with us and will after the second resurrection along with the father of it all and his minions with him.

I didn't intend to discuss whether God kills here or whether He accomplishes that in some way not directly from Him but to recognize the right of Love, God to have indignation with sin and rebelion.

I know some of you find God does not kill but it don't seem as though that can be discussed without heat and flame so I would rather stay away that that aspect.

Do you not realize there is some that believe that God will in time even reinstate Satan and his minions, and all of us who will not come out of sin same as Satan.

What I understand of that is, Satan, his minions and all men are given very adequate time to do that, to reconcile to the righteous God of Love and confess He is Love and any punishment to them is more than warranted.

This reign of sin of 6,000 yrs with us and more with Satan and his, we know will be taken care of in absolute righteousness, no questions asked and no doubts whatsover.

Our God, Yahweh, has righteous indignation, disciplines in love and woos without coercion all to come and and see His justice and Love. He wants us to grow up "straight and tall" in love and righteousness too as He is.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

If ye love me, keep my commandments. In other words, PROVE it!

Well, the sinners flocked to Christ, but the Pharisees and the law keepers the people avoided. Soon you will be avoided. Change your rant to something positive instead of beating folks over the head with the same law you fail to keep....

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

If ye love me, keep my commandments. In other words, PROVE it!

Well, the sinners flocked to Christ, but the Pharisees and the law keepers the people avoided. Soon you will be avoided. Change your rant to something positive instead of beating folks over the head with the same law you fail to keep....

Yes Robert that is what Jesus is saying in this statement,

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Sufficient love will do it. IF is a big word there is it not.

Know also the Gospel is the law unfolded. Also the Gospel is the reach out of His love for the erring.

You are forgetting something there too Bro. and that is Jesus was a law keeper too and the proclaimer of His Gospel of Love.

It is God's law of love, why all the consternation, or fretting toward it? Show Him how much you love Him. It is your love that will fulill it in satisfaction to Him and to you.

Doing the deeds of it and hating it won't fill the bill!

May actually raise His indignation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Know also the Gospel is the law unfolded.

What does that mean? Explain yourself.

[Gibs]

"The Law and the Gospel can not be separated. In Christ mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. The Gospel has not ignored the obligations due to God by man. The Gospel is the Law unfolded, nothing more nor less. It gives no more latitude to sin than does the Law. The Law points to Christ; Christ points to the Law. The Gospel calls men to repentance. Repentance of what?--Of sin. And what is sin?--It is the transgression of the Law. Therefore the Gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the Law of God. Jesus in his life and death taught the strictest obedience. He died, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty, that the honor of God's Law might be preserved, and yet man not utterly perish. {ST, February 25, 1897 par. 1}

The work of salvation in both the Old and the New Testament dispensation is the same. Christ was the foundation of the whole Jewish economy. The types and shadows under which the Jews worshiped, all pointed forward to the world's Redeemer. It was by faith in a coming Saviour that sinners were saved then. It is through faith in Christ that they are justified today. {ST, February 25, 1897 par. 2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

I need your own words from the Bible. Ellen White is not the final word.

[Gibs]

It sure isn't saved in continuing sin Robert, Jesus made that clear, He also made it clear for any to teach to break His commandments is a dire thing. They are the way of love not in doing the deeds of the law for approval but for love as they are of Love.

Well Robert I know and don't think you will ever see it, the gospel cannot be presented with out the Law.

The reason is, none would ever know what is right from wrong, don't you see?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

the gospel cannot be presented with out the Law.

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith shall live." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before the faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith has come, we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law.

“‘The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.’ (Gal. 3:24) In this Scripture the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law." [Ellen White]