This is To Explore, The Cup of His Indignation

[Gibs]

Back to our God who is Love and has indignation, but Why?

Because He hates sin. He loves all the sinners but hates the sin they refuse to put away and since Noah has put His Spirit in man that since man has gotten so weak morally that he didn't have a chance against the wiles of Satan.

Now I don't think the Bible reveals God put His Spirit in man starting with Noah after the flood but it is in the book Jubilees or Little Genesis. In the Bible you do read this though from Paul,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

That is the Mystery, Christ in you, and Paul brings it now to the Gentiles.

In His great Love He gave to us His Son that He could dwell in us and His Son would show by His own example what is possible for man to do, yes walk as He walked.

Does He expect this of us? Yes He sure does. On top of that He bought us with His own blood. Please read this verse carefully!

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

When we become of love and faith in Him that we can do all things then we too hate sin as He does.

What then do you imagine He must do with those who will not have love for Him and faith that He enables those who will love and do His will?

Or do you think He will make all sinless who merely say I believe. Don't we know the Devils believe and tremble. A change of heart and love must take place in us. He don't force or make, we do our part, cooperate with desire to do His Will out of Love, not to try earning it by feeble deeds of doing the law.

He can't take them into His Kingdom to infest it again with sin and corruption as we have it here and now and it is now coming close to it's horrible maximum.

I'm with Him, I want a better land where sin, rebellion and corruption of every imaginable thing has become rampant.

Does He righteously have indignation? Yes!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Robert:

Kevin Straub:

Gibs: I agree that God has indignation; but it is against SIN - not the sinner. When Jesus returns, He returns to destroy death, the grave, and sin; not the sinner. Jesus died to save the sinner. As much as I admire your sincerity and consistency, Gibs, I REALLY dislike your constant negativity and presentation of God as an angry vindictive overseer and executioner. It's like you're presenting satan as God. satan is the destroyer and the accuser. satan is the father of lies and the source of all death. God is love and the source of all life. Yes, He will honor our free will and allow us to sin and even turn our destiny over to satan and his destructive whims if that is our desire, but one must really be careful about attributing to God the things of the evil one.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

You are forgetting something. What do you think He must do with the sinners that will have no part in letting go of sinning of which He hates. He cannot take one of those into His Kingdom to have it all defiles again.

You see He loves Satan but must do away with him and all who are of him. A sinner has chosen Satan to be his master.

Any one of us can put away any sin we have, He convicts us of it and gives us His power to be the victor over it and any that may come up.

Remember Christ's Gospel and with His indwelling we can be saved from sining but never will it be any are saved in sin.

If you truly have love it will come naturally. Yes, Yes God is Love but cannot save one in continuing sin.

Yes it is a strange act for love to have to perform. But He must if He didn't He wouldn't be LOve! How can He destroy sin if He don't destroy the ones who will not cast it out or allow it to be cast out, which needs our cooperation and death of # 1, self.

Read Jer 25:30 to the chapters end, this is when the damned are taken care of I believe.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

You are forgetting something. What do you think He must do with the sinners that will have no part in letting go of sinning of which He hates. He cannot take one of those into His Kingdom to have it all defiles again.

Gibs, even if you stopped sinning (which you have not), your nature disqualifies you of heaven.

Imperfect believers enter heaven, not with their humanity from Adam, instead they "will be changed"! [see 1 Cor 15:51]

[olger]

There is nothing that Lord Jesus Christ cannot do with a life given to Him on condition of surrender. "Because He suffered when tempted, He is able to assist them who are tempted" (Hebrews 2:18).

[Gibs]

Robert this thread is about Yahweh's right to have indignation. He hates sin and so the last post I made, is what do you expect He must do with the sinner who is adamant not to put it away.

Granted we are so weakened this far down from Adam we need much help to do that.

He knew that and so will come and dwell in any who will let Him in.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

When we don't it is because we are holding with another master, yes , Satan.

Any who find they cannot put away their sinning need to drop ole Satan and find the Lord of salvation and have Him take up His abode within instead. Then,

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

But now back to the subject here, What is God to do with those who persist in continuing sin? What do you imagine He must do that the Kingdom of God will be freed of sin and sinners. He wants all to be of free will so He will not make the sinner a robot, He could have done that in the beginning and sin would not have risen up.

Don't you think He wanted a people with a mind of their own who would love Him and do His will and not be destroyers and rebellious to Him.

Again what would you have God do with the rebellious who will not comply. Do you not think He knows better than we with our little finite minds?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kendoro]

Here are some common attempts to try and resolve this issue. Which is the most loving? Are there any other choices that make sense?

1. No one dies in hell.: Removes the free gift of salvation that is to be accepted or rejected. No free will. No one is allowed to choose death.

2. Wicked are burned in hell according to what they deserve, then are killed by God.: Creates the paradox of a loving God willing to torture His children for a time.

3. Wicked live forever in torment, kept alive by God.: Creates the paradox of a loving God willing to torture His children forever.

4. Wicked are destroyed by God’s glory, which is a consuming fire. In their rebellion, they have rejected the free gift of eternal life graciously offered by God. God respects their suicidal choice and withdraws His protection, allowing them to die.: Death is a consequence of sin, not a punishment by God.

“For sin pays its wage—death; but God's free gift is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23 GNT.

"Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13. God cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18. Do you think He can so easily break one of His other commandments?

We forget so easily that it is sin that causes death. Sin is a terminal, contagious condition that God permitted to continue for a while so that all creation would understand just how nasty it is. In His grace, Jesus provided the first example of the second death, so that all creation could understand what God was trying to save everyone from. God respects the free will of His creatures so much that He died to show how He places our free will beyond any measurable price. Sin causes the second death, not God.

[skyblue888]

In the past this topic of the wrath of God has been the subject of many debates. It has been clearly shown from the Testimony of Jesus that "the principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." The Great Controversy,343.

The underlying principle of God's dealing with men is that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." The Great Controversy,36.

In other words, "The Spirit of God persistently resisted is at last withdrawn from the sinner and there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." See The Great Controversy,36.

This is always true either for individuals or nations.

This is shown in the fate of the Jewish nation:

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." Ibid,28.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. "I the Lord do not change." (Malachi 3:6) In Him "there is no variation or shadow of turning." (James 1:17)

This is the foundation principle for this topic if we are to understand or to correctly interpret the language of the Bible concerning God's character, the nature of His government and the principles of His dealing with sin.

sky

[Gibs]

Kendoro, and Skyblue88,

One thing is for sure, we are soon going to find out. Really it won't be soon to the ones of the second resurrection but they won't know that, and to the ones of the first resurrection since they now have eternity a thousand yrs to the second resurrection is but one day.

What God does with them will be absolute righteousness and all the kness of the condemned will bow and confess the sentence is just.

Now would God be just in torturing one for eternity in hell fire for a mere bitty span of sin on this earth that so many now fight tooth and nail that none can live without doing sin?

So I ask you Gents, what would be more just than God just to end their existence in a flash?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Kendoro]

Consider this scenario:

A father gives his child a gift (life) and begs the child to keep it. The child obstinately refuses the gift and forces the father to take the gift back, who knows full well that refusal of the gift will cause the death of the child. The father begs and pleads for the child to keep the gift. The child continues to refuse.

Which is more just:

1. The father ends the child's existence in a flash. The child was going to die anyway.

2. The father accepts the child's choice. The child continues to reject the gift. The father accepts the gift back. The child dies as a result of his rejection.

[Gibs]

Kendoro,

This scenario is much different, Only the body dies at what men call death, Jesus said it right, he sleepeth.

All the spirits of all that ever lived are being held in a place of keeping who will be of the second resurrection and the ones who will be in the first are kept separte and are raised at the first. None have died THE DEATH yet.

Then in the second resurrection the damned are raised and meet with their master Satan and his evil angels. When these march upon the Holy City against Christ and the Saints this is when with Satan they become ashes on the earth. Read,( these are enough verses to show the point )

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Ps 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Know ye not that our God is a consuming fire for the wicked?

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

I like this one. How about you?

Manuscript No. 963 – The Days of Noah

As they reasoned in Noah’s day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah’s day. “God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true.” They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God.... 12MR 207.1

God’s love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. “Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself” (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. 12MR 207.2

God’s goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man—a criminal against God’s holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless—to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God’s holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. 12MR 208.1

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. 12MR 208.2

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. — Manuscript 5, 1876, 1-3. 12MR 209.3

White Estate 12MR 209

Washington, D. C., 12MR 209

January 6, 1983. 12MR 209

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

Q.E.D.,

I like! Great Find!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

The Lord has also revealed to us how we are to study the Bible and the Testimonies of His Spirit. "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1,42.

If we ignore this instruction we can never come to the true understanding of the language of the Bible or even of the Testimonies.

But those who obey the instruction will find that indeed the Testimonies explain themselves as Scripture is explained by Scripture.

"I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independently of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." Manuscripts Releases, Vol.14,3.

This statement like many others clearly confirms that God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

"Satan is the destroyer." Testimonies, Vol.6,388.

From these statements and those I have quoted in my first post, one can readily see and understand what "the wrath of God" or "the fierce anger of the Lord" is.

The language of the Bible in regard to the principles of God's dealings with sin will remain a strange language to us if we refuse to obey the instruction that in order to arrive at the truth one must compare Scripture with Scripture and statement with statement.

sky

[Gibs]

Sky,

Satan can kill the body but Satan or no man can kill the spirit and soul.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Sky thinks he has discovered a new language. But EGW doesn't say that you can take her writings and use them to turn scripture on it's head. And say that it doesn't really mean what it says. Or that it means what it doesn't say.

That runs against common sense, and the Bible wasn't inspired in that way. If it were then the common man could not understand it.

Without sky's help, that is.

[Guest]

You would have to use Ellen White's writings against Ellen White's writings, and somehow show from her own writings, that she didn't really mean what she said here:

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." Satan and his angels suffered long.

Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; {EW 295}

[JoeMo]

Sky,

I know this is off topic, but it is so good to see you back on line! I have missed you and your balance between the Word and the Spirit!

[Gibs]

I run across theses verses on this topic and this is a different way of seeing God's justice,

Eze 22:19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

Eze 22:20 As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.

Eze 22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Eze 22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

Eze 22:23 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 22:24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.

Eze 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Eze 22:27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

Eze 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

Eze 22:29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.