Riddle me this if you will

[M. T. Cross]

I see a lot of threads regarding the timeline of the end of earth, the second coming etc.

Now if we totally disregard Matthew 24:36 and think that it can be figured out, my question is this - Why does it even matter?

If you are secure in your belief, secure in that you are doing the best you possibly can to follow the mandate your God has set out before you, does it matter when it is that he decides that it is time?

[JoeMo]

MT,

Your questions are so sensible and bring me (at least) back to being centered - you know, not too far to the left or too far to the right. That's why I love you, man (in a manly, spiritual, platonic way, of course)!

I'm gonna put on my Christian hat here - not in an attempt to convert you or anything, just to give you my perspective why I'm not ready for "the end, yet ...

There are over 3 billion people on this planet who have never even heard the name of Jesus yet, not to mention the billion or so others who have been presented a totally warped idea of who He is and what He does and doesn't expect from us. If He were to come today, it's possible that billions would perish because they have put their faith in a denomination rather than in Jesus. IMO, it's only fair that everyone alive get a chance to meet (in a spiritual sense) the "real Jesus" through His Holy Spirit rather than through some man made institution; or never get a chance to meet Him at all. If the only "Jesus" they ever meet is some vengeful angry deity who is looking for an excuse to vent His anger on them, rather than the loving, merciful Father that I see Him to be, What a waste! That's just my opinion - I hope I'm not wrong. I don't know if I want to spend eternity looking over my shoulder and worrying about messing up. Does that even make sense?

[Q.E.D.]

"12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel."(Amos 4:12)

Yes.

Q.E.D.

[Gibs]

EC, the parable of the foolish virgins tell us the reason. They were not ready when the Bridegroom came and it is going to be that way for so awful many because they do not get ready and are still out in unforgiven sin.

I know you are not a believer, but you did ask the question and that is my answer as I am a firm believer and I know Him, He dwells in my heart.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

You make my point Gibs. You are a firm believer. So if he comes tomorrow you should be set, if he comes in a thousand years from now you will be resurrected and be good to go. You certainly do your best to pass the truth as you know it on to others that they will be in that same position.

So it seems to me that if more time was spent trusting that its going to happen exactly when the Father decides/has already decided its going to and less spent on working out complex equations to make it seem like its going to happen this year or 20 years from now it would be much more productive. That time could be spent making sure one is living as Christlike a life as possible and sharing that truth with interested individuals.

As Joe pointed out there are a lot of people that do not believe. Thing is that most of those people will never buy into the message if they are approached with a doomsday timeline. The end of the world has been predicted so many ways and by so many nutjobs within the 42 years I have been alive, not to mention the many before that, that people just see it as a scare tactic. Would not the idea of the love of Jesus and a message of hope and salvation work a lot more efficiently than one of fear and panic?

Q.E.D. - you make a valid point except that should you not be prepared every day? Why does it matter if its very soon, soon or sometime way down the road?

[M. T. Cross]

MT,

Your questions are so sensible and bring me (at least) back to being centered - you know, not too far to the left or too far to the right. That's why I love you, man (in a manly, spiritual, platonic way, of course)!

[JoeMo]

MT-

Yeah; I have issues with thinking that He would condemn people who never had a chance to meet Him. I can't back it up with scripture, but I gotta think that He will give everyone who eber lived a chance to see who He really is.

Romans 1;20 says :"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made". Do you think that could be true?

[Gibs]

We have an example of many of the American Indians when White men came here and they were asked or presented God, they would say "God is Great Spirit".

Seems as if His Spirit made this known to them as Jesus tells us this,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Were they wrong, many were savages and many were not.

[BobRyan]

Romans 2:13-16 describes the case of those with no Bible at all who "do instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the Works of the Law -- written on the heart" under the New Covenant "Drawing of all mankind" John 12:32 by the Holy Spirit who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

And so even those who were not aware of Christianity at all among the native Americans - were being drawn by the Great Evangelist - the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I see a lot of threads regarding the timeline of the end of earth, the second coming etc.

Now if we totally disregard Matthew 24:36 and think that it can be figured out, my question is this - Why does it even matter?

If you are secure in your belief, secure in that you are doing the best you possibly can to follow the mandate your God has set out before you, does it matter when it is that he decides that it is time?

If you were following God in the days of Noah and you learned that some 1500 miles from where you lived - there was a man building an ark -- would it matter? Would that change your life? Would you come to believe that following the "present truth" message God was giving to mankind - meant you needed to not only be on the ark at the right time -- but need to help build that ark of safety for mankind and show by your example that this was an all-or-nothing take-it-or-leave-it life-or-death matter?

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

I tend to agree, as I have stated before - I think we are all climbing the same mountain, just on different paths.

So to get back to the original question. I don't understand why there is such a need amongst some to have a date and time for the big ending/beginning. As long as one is doing everything they can in their life to be ready for it every day - who cares WHEN it is.

[BobRyan]

What denomination says "on this month... of this year... on this day -- we will have:

the Latter Rain...

or the close of probation...

or the seven last plagues...

or the second coming?

Here is the bigger question -- Given that you must have the Latter Rain to survive the rest of the events in that list - what is the Holy Spirit telling the saints to do right now so they will be included in the Latter Rain - rather than excluded from it?

Be aware of the signs of the times?

Watch and be ready?

Prepare for the Rev 15:8 point where Christ leaves off his Ministry in the Most Holy Place where He applies the blood of the covenant to those who ask for forgiveness of sins?

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

I am not aware of any denomination that claims to have the day and the hour Bob. I may be wrong about that, I know that the SDA church thinks it could happen any minute, its been the cornerstone of your denomination since its inception. But I was not aware of there being a set date.

I refer to individuals.

Should you be aware? Sure! But obsessed? No.

When I see people obsessively making charts and working out these lengthy equations to determine when each event is going to happen it screams one thing at me.

It screams that they are not secure in their own faith, in their own salvation. That they are trying to figure out how much more time they have to get it right.

[M. T. Cross]

MT-

Yeah; I have issues with thinking that He would condemn people who never had a chance to meet Him. I can't back it up with scripture, but I gotta think that He will give everyone who eber lived a chance to see who He really is.

Romans 1;20 says :"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made". Do you think that could be true?

I think that could be true Joe, but very few open their mind and eyes enough to see those things.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I don't understand why there is such a need amongst some to have a date and time for the big ending/beginning. As long as one is doing everything they can in their life to be ready for it every day - who cares WHEN it is.

Amen!

Quote:

It screams that they are not secure in their own faith, in their own salvation. That they are trying to figure out how much more time they have to get it right.

It does make a person wonder.

[JoeMo]

Bob,

You ask "what is the Holy Spirit telling the saints to do right now so they will be included in the Latter Rain - rather than excluded from it?" It's the same thing that Jesus told us to do 2,000 years ago - ask and believe. The average SDA does not believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for here and now - they think it's for some distant past time or sometime in the future. I'd go so far as to say that the average SDA is "afraid" of spiritual gifts.

I'm not an avid student of EGW, but I do remember her warning of counterfeit gifts - that in the last day satan would give counterfeit spiritual gifts to deceive the elect. So your average SDA thinks tongues and healing is either bovine excrement or "of the devil". I know - the Spirit gave half of the people in our church the gift of tongues (and other gifts) on a single Sabbath about 3 years ago; and most SDA's not from our church have put us in "quarantine". They consider the healing gifts that have been bestowed on us as a form of mass hysteria and satanic deception.

Jesus gave a warning in scripture about attributing the things of God to satan when the Pharisees accused Him of healing in the name of Beelzebub See Matt. 12:22-32 and Mark 3:20-29.

Another thing EGW said somewhere is that the spirit could be falling all around us, and we would be caught unaware. Go to a charismatic church or conference sometime. Witness the absolutely undeniable divine manifestation going on. Try not to be "creeped out" (it's pretty overwhelming the first time you witness it - even more so the first time you experience it). I tell you, there is nothing more powerful as far as solidifying your faith than receiving spiritual gifts.

That being said, we have not lost sight of a mandatory requirement - seek the Giver and not the gifts.

[JoeMo]

MT-

You say" I think that could be true Joe, but very few open their mind and eyes enough to see those things" about people observing the attributes of God from nature. You're correct. A lot of people just don't get out in nature any more. Look at one of your defining moments if experiencing deity. It was in nature, right? Mine, too - in the coastal redwoods of California and again in the forests of Vancouver Island. You just don't experience that kind of stuff in a city or your average easy-to-get-to campground.

Another thing - science has explained everything away in terms of theories and laws; and if it can't be proven by science, then it ain't so! Unfortunately, the formal scientific process can not prove the existence of God. That involves hypothesis, experimentation, and observation. The experiment is used to verify the hypothesis. To me, by the very definition of supernatural (i.e., outside of nature), there are no experiments that can be done to verify supernatural manifestation. That's not my story, it comes from Stephen Hawking.

Back to your original point - it is pretty ridiculous to try to set dates. Not just SDA's, but Christians from the apostle's time onward were confident that they were living in the last days. I try to live a physical/financial life like time will go on well past my death; and a spiritual life like Jesus is returning tomorrow.

Winter has set in here in Colorado. It never got above freezing here in Denver today. Lows tonight in the high teens. Sign of the end?

[Gail]

EmptyCross- if you love God and His principles solely because they are true and righteous, then I agree with you. If you are covered by the blood of Christ, which you believe and accept by faith now, you would be ready even if you were to die of a stroke in the next 10 minutes.

[Gibs]

Quote:

I don't understand why there is such a need amongst some to have a date and time for the big ending/beginning. As long as one is doing everything they can in their life to be ready for it every day - who cares WHEN it is.

Amen!

Quote:

It screams that they are not secure in their own faith, in their own salvation. That they are trying to figure out how much more time they have to get it right.

It does make a person wonder.

Main thing CoAspen, is are you ever ready, if so, no fear.

His don't live in fear of what is coming, they are in His impervious Pavilion that nothing can get into.

Take part ole chap and don't be a critical because others want to investigate.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

MT-

You say" I think that could be true Joe, but very few open their mind and eyes enough to see those things" about people observing the attributes of God from nature. You're correct. A lot of people just don't get out in nature any more. Look at one of your defining moments if experiencing deity. It was in nature, right? Mine, too - in the coastal redwoods of California and again in the forests of Vancouver Island. You just don't experience that kind of stuff in a city or your average easy-to-get-to campground.

[M. T. Cross]

EmptyCross- if you love God and His principles solely because they are true and righteous, then I agree with you. If you are covered by the blood of Christ, which you believe and accept by faith now, you would be ready even if you were to die of a stroke in the next 10 minutes.

Exactly, thats what I am trying to point out here.

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Gail

EmptyCross- if you love God and His principles solely because they are true and righteous, then I agree with you. If you are covered by the blood of Christ, which you believe and accept by faith now, you would be ready even if you were to die of a stroke in the next 10 minutes.

Exactly, thats what I am trying to point out here.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Take part ole chap and don't be a critical because others want to investigate.

I guess you don't understand EC's observation! People have been "investigating" ever since Christ left the earth seemingly to always have a different version of what others need to believe. Can't beat what Christ said, "I don't know, just be ready for when it happens, Believe in me and you will be safe!"...a bit of paraphrase, but the essence!!

By the way, I do enjoy an 'outsider' like EC and his observations, they cut right to the point.....so to speak!!

[Gibs]

No CA, I do not understand EC's view point and he says he can't see ours to hold to Christianity.

We are all free to examine the evidence and make up our minds and take responsibility for it.

The answer for me is a surity but not for EC. I think we'll find out, maybe EC don't I don't know.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Actually Gibs, I do understand your point of view better than you think. I spent 18 years trying to believe it, 12 years fighting with it, and another 12 removing the programming from my head.

What I don't understand about this particular topic is this. Jesus quite clearly states that trying to figure out the hour and date of his return is a waste of time. He does not know it. Now of course you are free to try and do so! But why? Your holy book says pretty clearly that you won't succeed in it and beyond that I just can't figure out why it really even matters. The only way it matters is if you don't believe that giving yourself over to your God and letting him live through you, each day affirming your faith in him is enough. Even if you think there is a timetable that you have to be perfect in, I am thinking that the time spent figuring out that timetable could be much more productively spent working on that elusive perfection.

I think you will find out. I hope that its everything you want it to be. In the end I think we will likely meet in the home of the Divine and our Gods will be there with us.