This Is a Sad Story ...

[JoeMo]

Religious affiliation among young people is dropping like a rock! We as a church (SDA and non SDA Cristians alike) need to get out of the protective walls of our churches and do the job Jesus gave us!

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09...ated/?hpt=hp_c2

How do we change our church to turn this around and finish the work?

[JoeMo]

As SDA's, most of our churches are not what I would define as "seeker friendly". We have a strict and rigorous doctrine, and even a stricter culture. There are still many among us who are into "rebuke" rather than encouragement; exclusion rather than inclusion of those who are not exactly like us. People need to finish several months' of Bible Study before we allow them to consider membership and baptism.

The Book of Acts seems to imply the same problem when the Gentiles started streaming into the early church in hoards. It must have been terribly uncomfortable for a bunch of Orthodox Jews to accept the culture and habits of so many "unclean" Gentiles. At least those Gentiles were baptized into Jesus (and frequently into the Holy Spirit) as soon as they believed, rather than after they passed the test of learning all of the "establishment" doctrine and culture.

We have to accept people into fellowship where they are - especially young people. Notice how old some of our congregations are here in North America! We're all gonna die of old age before Jesus comes if we don't do something!

Now that I've identified the problem, I must admit that I don't have an answer. Do you have any ideas?

[Gail]

The truth is important, for sure!

The NT disciples had the truth, more than that they were eyewitnesses to Jesus Himself! But what did John continually tell them?

Try a search on "love one another". See that John gave the brethren no other new commandment than what Jesus also told us.

Love is needed, not only for those with whom we agree but those also who are our enemies.

[Gibs]

Yes as Christians we must be kind and loving. But at the same time we cannot endorse error. The church must not bring the worldy things into it in place of the straight testimony. Yes Jesus's testimony would not give in to error. He rebukes error in a kind way to the ones outside but to the Pharisees He spoke strong and directly to them.

The truth seeker is looking for where truth is expounded, not what pleases the great majority.

So with that I will state why the church is falling off, the real truth seekers are getting less and less.

I want to tell you, this is the reason I became a SDAdventist. I went to several of the other so called protestant churches coming out amazed that the Word was miss expounded and too much error taught.

I'm sorry to say if you truly find a true to the Word even SDA church it will not be large.

Jesus said,- - ,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

"And few there be that find it"? Don't we suppose He knew what He was talking about? Yes He sure did but a sad realization.

Here is a word from Sister White and she has several on this vein.

"Satan therefore decided that he must come in a milder form. He had already corrupted the doctrines of the Bible, and traditions which were to ruin millions were taking deep root. Restraining his hate, he decided not to urge on his subjects to such bitter persecution, but lead the church to contend for various traditions, instead of for the faith once delivered to the saints. As he prevailed on the church to receive favors and honors from the world, under the pretense of receiving benefits, she began to lose favor with God. Shunning to declare the straight truths which shut out the lovers of pleasure and friends of the world, she gradually lost her power. {EW 226.2}

The church is not now the separate and peculiar people she was when the fires of persecution were kindled against her. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! I saw that if the church had always retained her peculiar, holy character, the power of the Holy Spirit which was imparted to the disciples would still be with her. The sick would be healed, devils would be rebuked and cast out, and she would be mighty and a terror to her enemies." {EW 227.1}

We must work for any we can outside His Camp in Love and in Truth.

He MUST be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Hmm....

Gibs, how is the young population doing in the church that you attend? Is it better than what is portrayed in the OP?

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

When Jesus told Nicodemus that "God so loved the WORLD ..."; and God sent NOT His Son to CONDEMN the world BUT that the world through Him might be SAVED", (emphasis mine) wasn't He talking about the whole world? We are LOSING people (at least in NA and EU). IMO it's because we won't do what Jesus has commissioned us to do. Look at us (I include me)! We are sitting here behind our computers preaching to each other instead of to the lost!

[Gibs]

Gail,

There is hardly enough going here to keep operating, the people aren't interested or see not enough value. I really think both. Yes it is sad but a more liberal church isn't going to be the answer, as that is what it is now, and when it began to be liberal here is when the falling away began and fast.

The three churches here in this area are now also low in membership. The stritest one remains the strongest however.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I continually preach and lead to the truth of things where I can at all times to people I come in contact with, and yes there is some see and are gladened.

I'm retired now many yrs and I have an invalid wife and so don't get away a lot. If it weren't for her Sister helping with her I wouldn't have as much time even here as I do.

I'm kept busy for an 81 yr old and still am a gardener and bike on our trail when Linda comes to care for my wife and meet people there and we discuss these things.

I've got into witness several times with Atheists. I meet Amish and they are wonderful people.

I know two that are now Sabbath believers and both are very grateful.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Good for you Gibs! Blessings to you!

[Gail]

Gail,

There is hardly enough going here to keep operating, the people aren't interested or see not enough value. I really think both. Yes it is sad but a more liberal church isn't going to be the answer, as that is what it is now, and when it began to be liberal here is when the falling away began and fast.

The three churches here in this area are now also low in membership. The strictest one remains the strongest however.

This may come as a surprise, Gibs, but I see why the strictest one would remain the strongest.

Jesus rebukes the church in a Laodicean state. If one is preaching the truth as we have it, they will succeed. It's not a hot church, not the cold ones, it is the one that is wishy-washy. That is where I feel a liberal but not growing church might fit. They are big on the love (which is good) but lacking on the wonderful truth our denomination has for the world.

My gut feeling is that the churches that are losing their young and dying are ones that are either 1) not strong in truth and/or 2) strong in truth but unwilling to love

Our people need to be strong in both, otherwise you get one side of the picture or the other

[Gail]

I still feel that young people can handle truth (doctrine).

I feel that young people crave love.

All they need is to put the Bible in their hand, tell them that is where they will find peace and strength to stand, give them a good mentor that will give them space to learn and let them GO

They have the passion and the energy to do it, both to preach AND to do the good works that the Bible, the Holy Spirit and a heart like Jesus constrains them to do.

What may be holding young people back are US- the older ones who demand it be done OUR way.

[LynnDel]

A seeker, by definition, really is looking for truth, for answers to eternal questions. We have our evangelistic series, and the seekers are excited to learn new truth, principles that affect their beliefs and how they live. Then they transition to church life, where many members treat life as ho hum status quo, and the "seeker" atmosphere among the regular church members is about nil. Everyone believes the same, or appears to, and there is not much discussion about searching the scriptures regarding subjects that are not on the typical SDA agenda. Seekers want to know more than we are giving them, and we don't, because we are so afraid of overburdening them.

What needs changing more than anything else is US. We've settled in, gotten our feet in concrete, and the new members, maybe, really don't want to become like us.

The time to help a recent convert make the changes they want to make is when they are already in the middle of changing! Once they've begun to settle in, changing is harder. Asking questions is harder, because everyone else seems to know all the answers, better be careful not to look ignorant.

When anyone brings up a topic on which they have a question, often someone quotes a verse of scripture or EGW, literal (peshat) level, and it appears the bottom line has been reached as far as anyone's interest is concerned. I've even heard members say, "EGW has nothing to say on that, so it must be a side issue and not important." Yawn. Next topic.

I would like to be in an atmosphere of feeling freely able to ask questions, to bring up Bible verses and subjects that are rarely discussed. ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, it is there for us to dig into. Often we just scratch the surface because we do not approach the Bible with the attitude of a learner; we are still proof-texting. Digging deeply is exciting! Let's make it a habit. Starting to practice here on CA is a good idea. I am so happy when I see that we are often able to discuss freely without calling a person's intelligence, reading ability, or faith into question.

LD

[Gail]

Oh, LynnDel!!! First LifeHisCost posted something that blew me off my feet and now you!

Keep the revolutionary feedback coming!!!

That's right, we behave as if the pat answers are all there are. While it is good to memorize them and have them on our brain backburners, good students will always come up with fresh stuff from the Bible that adds to our understanding and relates to those who are actually alive and thinking. I mean, we don't have to wait until heaven to get started on that, do we?

That is one reason I absolutely LOVE listening to the folks at Light Bearers. You have a fresh, young, conservative class of Bible Bereans that never cease to amaze me with what they find. They are not only well-versed in the Old Testament but they make it relevant to the young ones OUT THERE as well as we the converted.

It would do many of us established church members to listen to a few of their sermons and see if we can catch how it's done.

It behooves us to keep the passion in us as well! Well, nowadays they might call it faith on steroids...

[Woody]

[CoAspen]

I see a few answers here that are not uncommon when the subject comes up. The bottom line for the younger generation....honesty!! It really is about honesty, not only in actions but in doctrine, belief systems, everything. They have many resources available to them, and use them more that some of the 'older gen', to determine 'truths'. They are going to e turned away by errors used to support some type of belief, example, when trying to understand creation, age of the world, sin, Gods love, etc. For a long time members of the .org church have accepted and taught errors in all of these areas standing on the premise, 'thats the way I was raised, it was good enough for me, so it should be for you'.

The younger gen is not afraid to say 'I don't understand everything or have answers', but they will search. They do not have the cultural blinders or blocked thinking process that the older gen have often exhibited. They look for the genuine and are not as critical of those that believe different. While we anguish over every little detail of theology for correctness, they are moving on. The older gen have wondered for so long in the desert, that their ways have been set, the younger are learning of everything in life and are not afraid. The older gen is afraid to learn of life because they might become tainted. I believe the younger gen will lead the church out of the wilderness and show the older gen, us, how to have a better trust in God and not our decade long preconceived ideas and opinions.

They leave the church because the church is afraid of them and it shows! Where young people are a part of the church, you have a growing church.

My opinion and sticking too it!

[JoeMo]

I'm loving this discussion! You are all providing such great comment! Thanks!

I'm off to small group - I'll provide some of my ideas later.

[Gibs]

If they are getting it from the Prophets and Apostles and Jesus Christ, and His Word they are on the right track. Therein lays all true wisdom and understanding.

The wisdom of men is foolishness in comparison.

It wouldn't be easy to surpass EGW with only her 3'rd grade education.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Again, I want to think you all for your wonderful input. I would like to put in my two cents worth here. What I say here is just my input - nothing more. I am not telling the church how to change; I am just repeating some feedback from people who are in my church (average age = less than 30 years old).

1. Doctrine - as Gail says at the top of this page, younger people can handle the truth. They also want rules, guidelines,and feedback. Furthermore, they want reasons for it. For example - many are OK with premarital sexual abstinence; but not "because God says 'thou shalt not commit adultery', and if you do, you will burn in the lake of fire." It is better presented as "God honors sexual purity because sex is a special gift from Him; and should be reserved for your spouse" (short summary - more words needed). They want to know about honoring the Sabbath - not because "if you don't honor it, you will burn in the lake of fire"; but because "it is a special day - set aside by God for rest and recreation" (again; short summary - more words needed).

2. Accountability - they expect to be accountable; and they expect older folks to practice what they preach. If they screw up, they want to know; but they also want to be treated with respect and honor. Judgement and condemnation don't work; but feedback and encouragement do. Teens have a hard time understanding why they shouldn't smoke pot or drink if they see their parents abusing sleeping pills, tranquilizers and/or pain meds. Young folks have a hard time understanding why they need to have a spiritual life if they don't see their older mentors having one. Why should they pray continuously if they don't see older folks doing the same?

3. Passion and enthusiasm - it's hard for younger people to get excited about their faith when us old folks make it such drudgery. Why can't we all be passionate about worship? What's wrong with a little swaying to the music, clapping our hands, and raising our arms. We are passionate when it comes to the people we love, why van't we be passionate about the God we love?

4. Inclusiveness - If we don't want young people to leave the church by the time they are 30, we need to include them in leadership and decision making before they are 30. AndI'm talking about in a meaningful way; not just some token position. Put them in charge of something. If they mess up or see us mess up, so what? Putting faith to work can be messy. People learn from mistakes. Some of you have been on a farm. If the barnyard and stalls are spotless, then the farm isn't very busy. Even in the office, a clean desk is the sign of a person who doesn't have enough to do. Messy barn = busy farm; messy desk = busy person.

5. Love and forgiveness - young (as well as old) folks mess up. They know when they mess up. A pregnant unmarried woman is not often proud of her accomplishment. A guy caught drunk in a bar or stoned with a bong will seldom brag about it. But disfellowshipping and shunning hardly helps. Unconditional love, support and encouragement often does.

6. Meaningful activitity - Pathfinders, Bible Bowl, and Hymn Sings at Vespers don't cut it anymore. In today's techno and athletic world, they need varied and active stuff to do.

This is a very brief summary, and not complete or very well explained. I don't expect everyone to agree; and I don't have all the answers. I know it works for us. What do you think?

Talk later; small group starting.

Blessings,

Joe

[LynnDel]

Too often we depend on others to feed us our Bible knowledge -- preachers, CDs, downloads, Youtube, bloggers, forum authors, printed Bible lessons with a few verses and a lot of commentary, etc. I have learned from personal experience that when I dig deeply in the Bible for myself, the Holy Spirit will bring me to understandings that I don't think I could have gotten any other way. That Berean attitude -- we all need it. I wonder -- if we had it, what would it do to our churches, and to our unity in Christ?

LD

[Gail]

Amen, LD. When I find something in the Bible on my own it's God talking through the Spirit to ME! It becomes personal. Then it's not second-hand, but my own witness.

[Gerr]

A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887

[JoeMo]

Indeed, engaged study of God's word, coupled with private prayer is essential to a Spirit-filled Christian life. I would suggest that keeping a journal of prayer requests and the associated answers to those requests; along with documentation of the impressions God may be giving you during study/prayer time is a very beneficial practice in learning how to hear God's voice and seeing His moving among us.

These practices greatly enhance our "God awareness" all day long. With God on our minds all day, sin becomes more of a challenge than not sinning. Witnessing becomes an unconscious activity - people "see" God in our lives without us giving them a single "religious" word. Blessing others becomes an automatic response to seeing people in need - even if all they need is an encouraging word or holding a door open. Frequently, bunches of little things show people that we care for them - more so than the occasional "big" thing. People will tend to pay a lot more attention to what we have to say when they know we consistently pay attention to their needs. It works with all ages to - from 3 to 93.

[Gibs]

Just a little followup of what Gerry brought, "revival of true Godliness". Since Sister White wrote of this here is one out of hundreds she wrote,

"A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887. {ChS 41.4}

The time has come for a thorough reformation to take place. When this reformation begins, the spirit of prayer will actuate every believer, and will banish from the church the spirit of discord and strife.--Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 251. {ChS 42.1}

A revival and a reformation must take place under the ministration of the Holy Spirit. Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from the spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices. Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit. Revival and reformation are to do their appointed work, and in doing this work they must blend.-- Review and Herald, Feb. 25, 1902. {ChS 42.2}

Do not the Scriptures call for a more pure and holy work than we have yet seen? . . . God calls upon those who are willing to be controlled by the Holy Spirit to lead out in a work of thorough reformation. I see a crisis before us, and the Lord calls for His laborers to come into line. Every soul should now stand in a position of deeper, truer consecration to God than during the years that have passed. . . . I have been deeply impressed by scenes that have recently passed before me in the night season. There seemed to be a great movement--a work of revival--going forward in many places. Our people were moving into line, responding to God's call.--General Conference Bulletin, May 29, 1913, p. 34. {ChS 42.3}

All need get very serious these days as being serious seems to have fallen by the wayside in so many if not most places.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Great quotes. What exactly is the "revival and reformation EGW speaks of? In your quote from Review and Herald, Feb. 25, 1902. {ChS 42.2}, EGW defines it for us:

"Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from the spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices. Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit."

She talks about revival under the minitration of the Holy Spirit - not under the Law. She talks about reformation being a change of ideas, theories, habits, and practices. AMEN!! SDA's in North America keep trying to do things the same way we have for the past 150 years. It ain't working today. We have a wondeful message; but (IMO) it's not packaged right. We have our message on TV - if you are on 3ABN or watching some other obscure religious station at 3AM (at least that's how it is here in Denver). I watch programs like "It's Supernatural" by Syd Roth, or "Joseph Prince" during prime time; and wonder why SDA's can't switch times and formats. These guys have HUGE, MASSIVE support!

And I don't think they preach a false Gospel - their regular followers are sold out for Jesus!

I'm not saying we need to do things just like Syd Roth or Joseph Prince, but what we do here in North America ain't working! We need to reform (think and do differently) and revive (re-energize our hearts and minds)! There are several mega-churches out these full of people who are sold out for Jesus. Are there any mega-SDA churches in North America?

Are there any North American SDA churches that are bursting at the seams? I know of none. What would true revival and reformation under the power of the Holy Spirit look like to an SDA?

I don't ask this as a strategy to increase numbers and finances for our church - I ask this as a strategy to increase the impact of the full gospel message to as many people of all ages as possible. That's what we're here for.

[Gail]

Quote:

Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit.

I like this, and agree that it is very important. She mentions here that reformation without the Spirit will not bring about righteousness.

I think that might be a key... Perhaps church members were demanding reformation without the Spirit, which in my mind amounts to legalism.

How do we get a revival of the Spirit? And once you have it how can you talk to anyone about it without being accused of being like a Pentecostal?

It's like a person or a church that teaches an error... in our efforts to avoid that error we purposely avoid any of the good they might have as well. Is that right?