This Is a Sad Story ...

[Gibs]

I question deeply the ministry of Joel Osteen and the like. Yes mega churches but of what spirit and what power fires it all up?

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mt 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Great pretenses are to be seen, but who will see them for what they really are?

Pleae read from Sister White!

Said Christ: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." {NL 56.1}

These may profess to be followers of Christ, but they have lost sight of their Leader. They may say, "Lord, Lord"; they may point to the sick who are healed through them, and to other marvelous works, and claim that they have more of the Spirit and power of God than is manifested by those who keep His law. But their works are done under the supervision of the enemy of righteousness, whose aim it is to deceive souls, and are designed to lead away from obedience, truth, and duty. {NL 56.2}

In the near future there will be still more marked manifestations of this miracle-working power; for it is said of him, "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." {NL 56.3}

We are surprised to see so many ready to accept these great pretensions as the genuine work of the Spirit of God; but those who look to wonderful works merely, and are guided by impulse and impressions, will be deceived. . . . {NL 56.4}

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Notice I didn't mention Joel Olsteen (although I do think he has brought many to Christ).

"By their fruits you shall know them". How mansy U.S. SDA churches have more money than they need? How many U.S. SDA churches have to ask people to quit bringing food to their food bank, because the shelves are too full? How many U.S. SDA churches have waiting lists for their youth groups, or mission trips? How many U.S. SDA churches regularly experience physical manifestations of Divine presence? How many U.S. SDA churches have to end their Thanksgiving/Christmas basket drives early cuz their is more food than there is families to give it to? Believe it or not, these are problems regularly faced by spirit-led non-denominational churches.

I'm not criticizing the SDA Church - I love it; and by God's grace I will never turn my back on it. I'm just asking - isn't it time to come into the 21st century? It doen't appear to me that what we're doing is working (at least in North America).

CA is the most active, Spirit-filled SDA "church" I have been to in a very long time! It is open to all and the qualifications for membership are "come as you are". If we were a church, we would qualify as a mega-church with over 5,000 members. How great is that?! I will state right here that CA is the center of my public spiritual life right now.

[Gail]

Wow!!

[JoeMo]

Amen, Gail!

You ask: "It's like a person or a church that teaches an error... in our efforts to avoid that error we purposely avoid any of the good they might have as well. Is that right?"

My vote is yes - we often do. In our church we have a saying about people that propose "new light" - treat it like eating a Cornish game hen - eat the meat and spit out the bones! (My apologies to the vegetarians reading this!)

BTW - I don't mind being called a Pentecostal (although I prefer the term "Charismatic"); I consider it a compliment!

[LynnDel]

I am not sure what you're saying, JoeMo. What's the verse that says, "If they speak not according to this word, there is"... a little bit of light in them? NOPE. A truth that enshrouds error has more drawing power than blatant error and is therefore due more caution.

LD

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So with that I will state why the church is falling off, the real truth seekers are getting less and less.

This may be true of the general Christian church, definatly not true of the Seventh Day Adventist body of believers, with perhaps the exception of the older generation, even that open to further question.

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

I understand your concern, LD; but how do we know what the truth is?

ANSWER - By studying out the matter for OURSELVES to see whether these things are true! I've been around the block enough to trust no one (even fellow SDA's) when it comes to the "truth". I gotta check it out for myself.

I'm not saying that my revelation is the same as your revelation; nor is it the other way around. But I am a firm believer in Isaiah 8:20.

That being said, I keep my mind open to new light; and I reserve the right to be wrong and/or change my mind about things. If I didn't reserve that right, I would have never left Cathocicism to become JW, or the JW's to become an SDA.

Does that make sense?

[Gail]

If Ellen White avoided reading all books with different doctrine than she espoused, her shelves would have been a lot emptier! The works she quoted were not written by Adventist authors.

We need to be teaching people how to study and how to rely on the Holy Spirit for the gift of discernment.

If one met up with someone who comes from a _______________ background, you can still make a friendship even if you have to say, "I like what he says about ___________, but don't agree with him on _____________. Here is why I say that." That is not the same as bulldozing the person with how wrong they are.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

It defintely was great that you came out of those two.

But you mentioned this 21'st century, well it looks to me as time goes on things get further from the way Christianity should be.

We need to go back and be of purer days as the days of Pentecost, and this is coming and we want to be in it and part of it.

"Those who at Pentecost were endued with power from on high, were not thereby freed from further temptation and trial. As they witnessed for truth and righteousness they were repeatedly assailed by the enemy of all truth, who sought to rob them of their Christian experience. They were compelled to strive with all their God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus. Daily they prayed for fresh supplies of grace, that they might reach higher and still higher toward perfection. Under the Holy Spirit's working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

Will this bring Martyrydom to a lot of the Saints? I am certain of it. Thousands and thousands of guillotines from what I've read are prepared already as this is the preferred way they have to deal with discenters. Will this pale the Martyrdom of the dark ages? Yes it may and probably will!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I agree 100% with your statement: "We need to go back and be of purer days as the days of Pentecost, and this is coming and we want to be in it and part of it."

If you think that we are near the end of this age, do you not also agree that we are in the time of the Latter Rain? Will not the Latter Rain be even more powerful than the first Pentecost? Will we not be empowered to do the same (even greater) signs and wonders than did the apostolic church? If we take hold of the same power that was made available by the Holy Spirit to the apostles, won't millions (maybe billions) be added to the roles of heaven? Don't say "no"! That is the same as saying "I give up. God is not strong enough" Christianity in general has given up on its mission by lobbying governments to legislate Judeo-Christiam morality rather than fulfilling its mission to make disciples of all nations (including the U.S.).

EGW says that Christ had no power that we don't have available to us if we would just ask! Ask and you shall receive! It is this Holy Spirit power (the gifts described in 1 Cor. 12 and 14) and the accompanying holy boldness that will bring the church into the 21st century! This power is not relegated to the distant past or future. If we are indeed in the Last Days, it is for us here and now! I pray that we would recieve it and use it for the glory of God!

[Gibs]

Yes, JoeMo, it is time now for the latter rain. I believe the 144,000 may be sealed and ready,and when they are we have this to consider,

Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Then when it is finished and in Glory this is said of them,

Re 7:13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Re 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Re 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These Jesus honors greatly!

The following is a serious Quote from Sister White on this and I beg each to read this and take it to heart. This is needed strong medicine, be prepared.

"The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."

{3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}

But the general slaughter of all those who do not thus see the wide contrast between sin and righteousness, and do not feel as those do who stand in the counsel of God and receive the mark, is described in the order to the five men with slaughter weapons: "Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." {3T 267.2}

In the case of Achan's sin God said to Joshua: "Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you." How does this instance compare with the course pursued by those who will not raise their voice against sin and wrong, but whose sympathies are ever found with those who trouble the camp of Israel with their sins? Said God to Joshua: "Thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you." He pronounced the punishment which would follow the transgression of His covenant. {3T 267.3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Religious affiliation among young people is dropping like a rock! We as a church (SDA and non SDA Cristians alike) need to get out of the protective walls of our churches and do the job Jesus gave us!

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/09...ated/?hpt=hp_c2

How do we change our church to turn this around and finish the work?

I think we are beginning to wonder again...the topic started out questioning why young people leave the church and how to change that. Can we have some concrete ideas rather that more introspection. When we look at ourselves/church wrongs, which is a continuing occupation, and don't bring solutions, things continue as always. Maybe that is part of the reason younger people don't see the church as relevant.

[Gibs]

CA, If the church and the parents want to see the young people staying and growing in spirituallity both have great need of turning back to the first love of true devotion.

The church which is the people are today fully Laodicean and need to turn and be "hot" again.

She began regressing after 1903 and has excelerated since is my opinion and many would agree I'm sure. Others would be vehement that we should think such a thing.

Satan esily steals the march on men if not continually close and tight with the Lord, but has it not become loose and careless?

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[D.A. Wintsmith]

People crave a sense of belonging, and tend to stay where they experience belongingness. I'm not a young person so cannot say why young people are now leaving the church, but it used to be that people left when they didn't experience a sense of belonging. It wasn't just the young. It was new converts as well. They left out of loneliness. When people stay with the church it is because they have strongly connected. It isn't just about the devotion and rules for those who connect; it is the celebration of all the cool unique things that come with being Adventist. It is shared recipes from people who could cook delicious vegetarian food before the rest of the world thought vegetarianism was cool, it's the smell of home made bread and special Adventist hospitality...

In fact, food might even be a key to keeping members. I've worked at a synagogue for years, and the Jews know that if you want people to participate, you have to offer food. Even after religious services there must be something to gnosh on or people won't come. Now I realize that Christians think that people should attend services for the blessing alone, but Jews know better -- if left to blessings alone, there will be no more synagogue before long. And Jewish cooking isn't all that good, in my opinion. I don't know why this is, since both Adventists and Jews observe many of the same food laws, but if I had the choice between eating with an Adventist and eating with a Jew, I'd choose eating with an Adventist because Adventists are better cooks. But back to my point. Jewish belongingness has a lot to do with food, and they shamelessly use food to encourage participation and to keep their members. And it works. It has worked for thousands of years.

Well, I didn't expect this post to go quite in the direction that it went. Food was not on my mind when I started it. I was thinking more in line of developing the idea of belongingness. But you wanted a concrete idea instead of endless introspection, and as frivolous as it may sound, food could be something to consider if you agree that belongingness is the key for why people stay and why people leave.

[CoAspen]

I like your idea about 'belonging' I suspect that you could be on the right path. It speaks to us all, but the younger generation has had many more choices that some of us older gen and they don't just settle. In a way, it is sad that the future of the church doesn't feel like they belong and we have pushed them away in our desire to make them acceptable.

[Gerr]

Gibs,

Great quotes. What exactly is the "revival and reformation EGW speaks of? In your quote from Review and Herald, Feb. 25, 1902. {ChS 42.2}, EGW defines it for us:

"Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from the spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices. Reformation will not bring forth the good fruit of righteousness unless it is connected with the revival of the Spirit."

The message to the Laodicean church is applicable to our condition. How plainly is pictured the position of those who think they have all the truth, who take pride in their knowledge of the Word of God, while its sanctifying power has not been felt in their lives. The fervor of the love of God is wanting in their hearts, but it is this very fervor of love that makes God's people the light of the world. {1SM 357.1}

[JoeMo]

I think you struck on something there D.A. It seems like good old Adventism hospitality has fallen off in recent years. We used to have pot lucks every Sabbath after service - good vegetarian food and time to socialize. Atthe church I now attend, we used to have continentla breakfast (fruit, pastries or bagels, beverage); but the people who did this burnt out and no one has stepped in. Attendance has shrunk. Pot lucks have unfortunately evolved into going out to eat - less socializing at a restaurant than a pot-luck.

Getting back to young people, they live in a totally different culture than people did even 30 - 50 years ago. Groups like pathfinders and Bible Bowl Teams don't interest them any more -especially once they reach the age on 11 or 12. Singing 100 year-old hymns accompanied by a piano or a pipe organ isn't much of a draw, either.

One thing that is a draw is taking them to Christian Rock music events (that will draw some flack!). Bands like the Newsboys, Third Day, Toby Mac, Group One Crew, Jeremy Camp, Hillsong, Jesus Culture, Matt Redman, Chris Tomlin, Flyleaf, Skillet, Sanctus Real ... the list goes on and on. IMO, there is no such thing as "evil music" just "evil lyrics". Why should the devil have all the good music? If you don't think Christian young people are listening to rock music, think again! They might as well be listening to rock music with a strong Christian message. We usually have about 70% - 80% participation by our youth for going to concerts.

Another draw is passionate worship (raising hands, clapping, even dancing). Many of our young people (5 - 18 years old) "groove" to the music,sometimes with flags and pom-poms. Some draw or paint pictures during worship, as well.

Responsible youth are also put into leadership positions at an early age; and held accountable for group participation as leaders.

I'm not saying this will work everwhere; but it works at our church, where the average age of people is about 30 years old.

[Gail]

That would be a help to update the music... one of the churches I attend they DO have rocky kind of music, but they are not bursting at the seams, either. They also provide a meal after every service and the fellowship is pretty good there.

I still think that the answer is in the Bible.

[LynnDel]

I still think that the answer is in the Bible.

I agree, Gail.

I just read "The Amish are one of the fastest-growing religious groups in North America, according to a new census by researchers at Ohio State University."

Amish growth

I doubt that the Amish have changed to meet the current culture. The article points to the size the Amish family as responsible for a lot of the growth, indicating that the children generally stay with them. (A side issue here is a late realization that we as SDAs should not have bought into the small family hype of the last half century and more. Most of us did it, probably thinking of the high cost of Christian education, but by doing so we limited our "army of youth." Whole 'nuther topic. Sorry.)

I fear I have again veered away from the question of the OP, so I will be quiet now.

LD

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I must disagree on rock music. It is to arouse the lower sensual passions, it has a low beat, that is suggestive. It is not uplifting to a higher plane with the Lord. It makes the hearers want to twist and gyrate and other suggestive motions.

I used to hear a Sunday keeping preacher really lay rock music in the trash heap and I find he was right. He also brought out how with evil music and lyrics of the hypnosis of it evil is planted in the mind and heart. Rock hadn't come in yet in EGW's time but there was music seen not desirable.

Something Sister White stated and she spoke a lot about our music,

"Angels are hovering around yonder dwelling. The young are there assembled; there is the sound of vocal and instrumental music. Christians are gathered there, but what is that you hear? It is a song, a frivolous ditty, fit for the dance hall. Behold, the pure angels gather their light closer around them, and darkness envelops those in that dwelling. The angels are moving from the scene. Sadness is upon their countenances. Behold, they are weeping. This I saw repeated a number of times all through the ranks of Sabbath keepers, and especially in _____. Music has occupied the hours which should have been devoted to prayer. Music is the idol which many professed Sabbath-keeping Christians worship.

Satan has no objection to music, if he can make that a channel through which to gain access to the minds of the youth. Anything will suit his purpose that will divert the mind from God, and engage the time which should be devoted to His service. He works through the means which will exert the strongest influence to hold the largest numbers in a pleasing infatuation, while they are paralyzed by his power. When turned to good account, music is a blessing, but it is often made one of Satan's most attractive agencies to ensnare souls.

When abused, it leads the unconsecrated to pride, vanity, and folly. When allowed to take the place of devotion and prayer, it is a terrible curse. Young persons assemble to sing and, although professed Christians, frequently dishonor God and their faith by their frivolous conversation and their choice of music. Sacred music is not congenial to their taste. I was directed to the plain teachings of God's word, which had been passed by unnoticed. In the judgment all these words of inspiration will condemn those who have not heeded them.--"Testimonies for the Church," Vol. 1, p. 506. {MYP 295.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I might be simplistic, but I feel that the power of the Gospel is to be found in God's word and in a living relationship with Jesus. How can one improve on that?

Link Christ's power with the sorrow of each soul. That is a start. Pray WITH people, encourage them- all that friendship stuff. Take an interest in their hearts, not focus on what's wrong with them. There is a reward in soul-winning (not just getting them inside the door but mentoring them after). It will light a fire within your own soul.

[JoeMo]

No need to be quiet, LD. The specific topic may have been "how to keep young people; but I don't mind it evolving into "how do we keep people" period. Youth aren't the only ones leaving; their parents are leaving, too. In many churches only old folks remain.

I agree that teaching biblical truth is an integral part of discipling people and cementing firm and right belief in our membership. I think how we present scripture could change somewhat. In many churches, we tend to focus on what happened in the past and what will happen in the future. Maybe if we focused more on what we can do now; and actually do it. Some of the most popular conferences I have seen for youth and young adults involve getting people "fired up" about witnessing in unconventional ways, teaching them some techniques, and then going to shopping malls, Targets, WalMarts, etc. and doing it. After seeing how successful they are in bringing blessing (sometimes even physical healing) into people's lives, they are more comfortable doing it again. The positive feedback of actually succeeding at bringing people to Christ motivates them.

I don't propose to have the answers to this dilemna. In spite of the fact that over 90% of Americans claim to believe in God, only 20% are involved with a church. We need to do something different while maintainig God's standards. I'm just trying to stimulate some brainstorming on what we might do. Thanks for your input!

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

You say "I must disagree on rock music. It is to arouse the lower sensual passions, it has a low beat, that is suggestive."

No offense, my friend, but you say that because you are older; and never grew up with rock music. My mom is your age; and she feels the same way about rock music as you do - it's noise. She prefers Perry Como, Dean Martin, Harry Belafonte, "Sing Along with Mitch", etc.

I maintain that it is the words, not the notes, that makes music suggestive and arouses the lower passions. If you don't think most people under 50 are listening to rock music, think again. If you think parents can stop their teens from listening to it, you haven't spent much time with teens lately. If they are going to listen to it anyways, I'd personally rather they hear the lyrics "Glory, glory, alleluia, He reigns!" than "If you want my body and you think I'm sexy..."

Did you know that the melody for the hymn "In the Garden" was taken from an old European drinking song (so I've heard)? Will that stop you from singing that classic?

BTW - I frequently take groups of kids to Christian Rock concerts; and I've NEVER seen any of them get "sensual". Do they dance - yes! Do they raise their hands and praise Jesus? YES! Are they open to the message that is preached and the prayers during the concerts! ABSOLUTELY! Have kids given their hearts to Jesus at these shows YES - about 300 of them last time Jesus Culture was here.

Music is one of the greatest attractions to people young and old alike. My guess is as many people go to church for the praise music as for the preaching (ain't saying it's right - just saying IMO it's a fact). I've heard lots of people say, "I'm not going to church today because 'so-and-so' isn't leading the music".

[Gibs]

JoeMo, Just plain and simple, rock music is not Christian. It is strongly of the world and I for myself would label it Satan's ground.

I would advise leading the young to have a distaste for it. The Spirit of it is absolutely wrong in church and is not preferred out either. It excites the lower passions and noone needs that.

Any minister I feel that don't preach and teach it is wrong isn't worth his salt.

You are taking the world into the church with it and the church is too much in the world now. The wrong spirit is in rock music.

There is an old story rock music got it's name from prostitutes in Cleveland Ohio from them luring in winos with low beat music and beckoning, and then rocking and rolling them of their money, way back in the 1930's. The beckoning of course suggestive with little on.

He calls for His people to come out of the world and to come out of the churches the world has come into.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

I bought some Amish Molasses today.