Will the real Romans 8:1 please stand up!

[Robert]

If you are reading Romans 8:1 in the KJV (translated from the Greek Textus Receptus) you will note the added phrase

"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The Nestle-Aland and Westcott and Hort Greek texts do not consider this phrase as legitimate. It is probable that a copyist inadvertently picked up the phrase from Romans 8:4 which has the identical wording.

Can you see how this additional phrase leads to a slightly different interpretation of "no condemnation"? Paul is not basing his declaration of no condemnation upon our conduct, but upon our position (in Christ). While it is true that those who are in Christ should not and do not consistently walk according to the flesh, this is not a condition for their status of "no condemnation" and for that we are thank our merciful Father for the wisdom and perfection of His plan of salvation.

The Net Bible also adds this note:

"The earliest and best witnesses of the Alexandrian and Western texts have no additional words for v1. Both the external evidence and the internal evidence are completely compelling for the shortest reading. The scribes were obviously motivated to add such qualifications (interpolated from v4), for otherwise Paul’s gospel smelled too much of grace."!

Dr Harry Ironside has an interesting thought on the variation in translations remarking that...

Careful students of the original text discover that the last part of Romans 8:1 in the King James version is an interpolation properly belonging to verse 4 [Romans 8:4]. The magnificent statement that opens Romans 8 - "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" - requires no qualifying clause. Our justification does not depend on our walk. Freedom from condemnation is given to all who are in Christ, and to be in Him means to be of the new creation. A glance at the Revised version or any critical translation will show that what I am pointing out is sustained by all the editors. It was man's innate aversion to sovereign grace, I am certain, that brought these qualifying words into the text of the King James version. It seemed too much to believe that freedom from condemnation depended solely on being in Christ Jesus and not on our walking after the Spirit. So it was easy to lift the words from verse 4 [Romans 8:4-note ] into verse 1 [Romans 8:1 ]. But in verse 4 [Romans 8:4 ] they have their proper place for there Paul was writing of the state of the believer. In verse 1 [Romans 8:1 ] it is the question of standing that is under consideration. (Romans and Galatians Ironside, Harry: Expository Commentaries)

The Christian’s war with sin does not end until he goes to be with the Lord. Nevertheless, there is still no condemnation-because the penalty for all the failures of this life (and who of us does not have many, yea, even many every day!) has been paid in full at Calvary. The holiest of believers are warned that, although they are no longer slaves to sin’s dominion, they will continually experience conflict with this old nature in this present life. The weakest of believers are promised that, although they still stumble and fall into sin’s power in their flesh, they will experience ultimate victory over sin in the life to come.

For the full quote see: Click here

[JoeMo]

Interesting, Robert - thanks for the info! I checked several translations of scripture, and most of them do not have the words "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" in Romans 8:1 And the KJV is the most accurate translation of the Bible? Hmmm...

[Robert]

And the KJV is the most accurate translation of the Bible? Hmmm...

No, it is not....

Here's another example:

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.... (KJV)

Here's the NASB:

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court...."

Notice, if you hate someone, in the eyes of the law you have murdered him/her.

But in order to relax the demands of the law perhaps another scribe injected "without a cause".

Talk about watering down the law. You see if you put a gun in my face then I can say that I had a reason/cause to blow you away.

But Jesus didn't say that. He said "agape your enemies" not hate them. This is what the law demands.

[JoeMo]

Again, I checked up on you; and you are absolutely correct! Our wonderful KJV is one of the only translations that has the words "without a cause" inserted into the text. You are a scholar and a gentleman!

[Robert]

[Gerr]

I agree that our justification is not based on our success in keeping the law. But let me ask you - what does it mean to be "in Christ" in light Jn 15:5? And to which of the two kinds of faith does the man of Rom 7 belong? And to which of the virgins of Mt 25 does he belong? And to which of the builders of Mt 7 does he belong? Is he "in Christ" as in the man of Rom 8:1? When his name/record comes up in the judgment, will his name remain written in the Lamb's book of life?

[BobRyan]

I like the KJV and NKJV and YLT and Wycliff on Romans 8 - yes even in the case of Romans 8:1

NKJV -

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

KJV

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wycliff

8 Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh.

Young's Literal

8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

Amplified

8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

========

Why do these translations take such a consistent and accurate view of Romans 8:1 - hmm maybe because of all the other "inconvenient details" in the rest of Romans 8!

Romans 8:12-16

NKJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

NASB

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Young's Literal Translation

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;

13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'

16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;

KJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Pretty hard to ignore the direct explicit message in these Bible texts.

I am going to have to go with the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Paul is not basing his declaration of no condemnation upon our conduct, but upon our position (in Christ).

[Robert]

But let me ask you - what does it mean to be "in Christ" in light Jn 15:5?

"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But let me ask you - what does it mean to be "in Christ" in light Jn 15:5?

"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."

Is this cleansing a one time event? Do the feet get soiled again? Did Peter need cleansing and repentance after Jesus told him, "You are clean...?" Why is there a foot washing in the Lord's Supper? The man of Rom 7 says: "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I KEEP ON DOING," V.19. He does whatever sin or the flesh tells him to do even though he may delight in God's law. The man of Rom 8:1,4 who is "in Christ" walks "not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Paul makes it clear that if you "walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh," Gal 5:16. This is clearly the experience of the man of Rom 8:1,4.

[Q.E.D.]

Beware of the Nestle-Aland and Westcott and Hort Greek texts . . . 666!

Q.E.D.

[BobRyan]

Have no fear of that - let not your heart be troubled.

=========================================

I like the KJV and NKJV and YLT and Wycliff on Romans 8 - yes even in the case of Romans 8:1

NKJV -

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

KJV

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wycliff

8 Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh.

Young's Literal

8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

Amplified

8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

========

Why do these translations take such a consistent and accurate view of Romans 8:1 - hmm maybe because of all the other "inconvenient details" in the rest of Romans 8!

Romans 8:12-16

NKJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

NASB

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Young's Literal Translation

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;

13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'

16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;

KJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

==============================

Pretty hard to ignore the direct explicit message in these Bible texts.

I am going to have to go with the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Q.E.D.]

Bingo! And for the Textus Receptus and BobRyan!

[JoeMo]

Gerry,

You asked if this cleansing a one-time event. The way I see it, it is not an event - it is a continuous process. Many of the NT references to the word "justified" (Rom. 3:24; 3:28; 5:9, 8:30, and 10:10; Gal.5:4; Titus 3:7 appear to be present tense. The same is true for the word "sanctified" (See Acts 20:32; 26:18; Rom. 15:16). I know there are also verses that use those words in the past tense.

I also hang my hat on 1 John 1:9, even though cleansing can be interpreted to be an iterative process in this verse.

Romans 8:31-39 also gives me great confidence that nothing - not even my sin or my unworthiness - can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Needless to say, He is much better to me than I deserve. His kindness, mercy, and grace (unmerited favor) towards me make me love him all that much more!

[Robert]

Is this cleansing a one time event?

Heb 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[Robert]

Bingo! And for the Textus Receptus and BobRyan!

Then there's condemnation for all of you rascals because none of you are living Christ's life - not even one! So you preach your message of condemnation - your message of legalism and self-righteousness while I rest in God's grace through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That phrase, "There is no condemnation", refers to what immediately preceded this wonderful truth. That even though believers are failing to live Christ' life we are complete in Jesus Christ.

-BC- RC

-TI- Reflecting Christ

-CN- 62

-CT- We Are Complete In Christ

-PR- 05

-PG- 76

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Col 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

[Gerr]

Then there's condemnation for all of you rascals because none of you are living Christ's life - not even one!

Of course, there's no condemnation for the one who is "in Christ Jesus"!!! The problem is that you are making the man of Rom 7 to be "in Christ" in spite of the fact that he confesses that "the evil I do not want is WHAT I KEEP ON DOING." The Apostle John puts it very clearly for me - "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil..." 1 Jn 3:8. "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God," 3:9 ESV.

Quote:

So you preach your message of condemnation - your message of legalism and self-righteousness while I rest in God's grace through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not at all. I preach freedom. Freedom from condemnation to those who are indeed "in Christ". I preach repentance and forgiveness. I also preach that the "gospel is the POWER of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." Ro 1:17. That grace "teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions," Tit 2:11 NIV. That those who live by the Spirit no longer have to say, "yes", to the flesh.

Quote:

That phrase, "There is no condemnation", refers to what immediately preceded this wonderful truth. That even though believers are failing to live Christ' life we are complete in Jesus Christ.

There is a world of difference between a believer who is warring against the devil, the world, and the flesh and falls short, and from the person who keeps on doing the evil that he hates. For what is repentance? Is it not to be sorry enough to turn AWAY from evil? Is not conversion a 180 degree change in direction? A 180 degree change in direction does not mean perfect performance.

Quote:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain.

That, I totally agree with you.

[Robert]

There is a world of difference between a believer who is warring against .... the flesh and falls short

I think you need to read it again:

22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

[BobRyan]

Gerry,

Romans 8:31-39 also gives me great confidence that nothing - not even my sin or my unworthiness - can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As we all know - God loves even those he burns in the lake of fire. You are skipping around the point. In Romans 8 Paul shows clearly that it is only those who "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" that experience the blessing of Rom 8:31-39

Isaiah 59 reminds us "your sins have made a separation between you and God".

Romans 11 reminds us "you should fear for you stand only by your faith - and if HE did not spare them neither will He spare you".

Matt 18 reminds us "so shall my heavenly Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

Gal 5 reminds us "you have fallen from grace, separated from Christ" in the case of those who wanted to accept the "must be a Jew to be saved" theology of "some".

Romans 2 reminds us that eternal life is for those who "persevere in doing good".

Romans 6 reminds us not to be deceived for

"15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

Romans 8 tells us that it is only those who "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh" that are given the assurance of salvation that cries out "Abba Father" and those who hearts are "set on the flesh do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they".

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Not the subject....Romans 8:1 is the subject.

BTW, do you know what Christ said to the self-righteous of His day?

Matt 21:31 "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

There is a world of difference between a believer who is warring against .... the flesh and falls short

I think you need to read it again:

22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Then let me ask you again. How is the man of Rom 7 any different than the rocky soil hearers? The 5 foolish virgins? The man who hears the word but builds his house on the sand? The one who says, "Lord, Lord" but still keeps on doing what sin tells him to do? From the one who says he has faith but shows no evidence for it except to say that he delights in God's law?

[BobRyan]

Have no fear of that - let not your heart be troubled.

=========================================

I like the KJV and NKJV and YLT and Wycliff on Romans 8 - yes even in the case of Romans 8:1

NKJV -

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

KJV

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wycliff

8 Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh.

Young's Literal

8 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

Amplified

8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

========

Why do these translations take such a consistent and accurate view of Romans 8:1 - hmm maybe because of all the other "inconvenient details" in the rest of Romans 8!

Romans 8:12-16

NKJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

NASB

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Young's Literal Translation

12 So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;

13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;

14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'

16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;

KJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

==============================

Pretty hard to ignore the direct explicit message in these Bible texts.

I am going to have to go with the Bible on this one.

[BobRyan]

Gerry,

Romans 8:31-39 also gives me great confidence that nothing - not even my sin or my unworthiness - can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Robert]

Is there condemnation to the believer who is failing to live Christ's life?

[BobRyan]

What does the Word of God say?

1 John 2 says this -

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Paul says that by definition the believers are walking after the Spirit - and by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh --

Romans 8

so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Phil 3

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god...

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"