To Keep and Bear Arms

[Tom Wetmore]

Well worth the time it takes to read - http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1995/sep/21/to-keep-and-bear-arms/?pagination=false

[debbym]

very interesting, and completely believable.

we do have a lot of paranoid people who want to keep their households armed with military arsenals. There is no doubt.

sigh...

deb

[bonnie]

very interesting, and completely believable.

we do have a lot of paranoid people who want to keep their households armed with military arsenals. There is no doubt.

sigh...

deb

The aversion to more and more laws concerning guns go far beyond "Just guns"

I know several with Conceal and carry and as many if not more that don't own a gun that have the same attitude.

Most people do not have households with military arsenals,some do of course.

Those that are "paranoid" do have a level of fear for the direction this country is headed and see "more and more" laws as another stepping stone for the government and rightly so.

They do not do so with the same level of understanding that some of us have as to the role the US will play in the end.

But they do realize that something is happening in this country that will forever change it.

[OzarkWoman]

Nothing but more blah....blah and more blah. It is not anyone's business who owns guns.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, actually it is. Gun manufacturers' business. Gun dealers' business. They all strongly advocate for the expansive interpretation of the everybody-get-a-gun interpretation of the Second Amendment. Because that is their business. Killings are great for sales...

[BobRyan]

The legal wrangling in the OP link not withstanding - a few things to consider.

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEG9ZwcjQic

[Tom Wetmore]

And the motivator? Peace and safety. But does having a gun really make you safer? The most prevalent sales pitch, especially for handguns, of the NRA (Gun manufacturers/dealers trade association) is self-defense.

But how effective is having a gun at really and effectively providing self-defense?

Read this - Pro-Handgun Experts Prove That Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense

And for a quick illustration of the point here are two short videos that also make that point -

[BelizeMissionary]

Killings are great for sales because every single one proves that criminals are out there and going to break the law no matter how many laws there are so you might consider protecting yourself. It is also great for sales because every time there is a Newtown politicians all over the place break out in song and dance because they feel they have justification to take peoples 2nd amendment rights and that makes people run to buy more guns. Just look at what is happening now. Police departments are even reporting they cant keep stocked up on ammo because sales are in the stratosphere.

Just a thought, but I'm pretty sure it was illegal for the newtown nut to steal his moms guns, illegal to murder her, illegal to steal the car, illegal to force his way into the school, and illegal to murder kids. Yet he didn't pay any attention to these laws, nor did Timothy Mcvay, or the Columbine shooter, or the Colorado shooter.

Stealing rights and making 500 new laws is not the answer. Improvement on mental health diagnosis and treatment is the answer. Doing something with hollywood and violent video games is the answer. Having two parent homes is the answer. Taking an interest in your kids and teaching them values is the answer. Teaching EVERYONE the history of this great country and why the constitution and the amendments were established is the answer. And of course, a firm belief and following of christ is the answer.

[BelizeMissionary]

"""""""""""

And the motivator? Peace and safety. But does having a gun really make you safer? The most prevalent sales pitch, especially for handguns, of the NRA (Gun manufacturers/dealers trade association) is self-defense.

But how effective is having a gun at really and effectively providing self-defense?""""""""

With respect, these videos are hardly proof of anything since:

1. ABC is a biased news source, as is this commentator.

2. They OBVIOUSLY have no knowledge of what states require. Their little "class" is a fraction of the concealed carry requirements in all states that Im aware of.

3. They admit these people are novices several times. Even the one guy that has "experience" is an indoor range shooter.

4. Even when a novice student performs well they write it off. (way to go girl, I'm actually impressed for the little training you had)

5. Extremely flawed argument of "maybe the gunman would of taken his gun. DUH!!! But without a gun he is 100% dead.

6. This assailant is a trained marksmen. Most school shooters are not trained marksmen and ANYONE that has been through CC would have the advantage.

7. The commentators argument against guns is that as an over the hill news anchor that spends her life in a studio on her backside and has ZERO gun experience she is 2 seconds late firing.

8. The assailant in these plays knows which one out of the crowd has the gun, not something that would be IRL.

9. LOL "Sometimes the right thing is to get shot, be the victim, play dead", (and maybe bleed out)"

I'm sorry but I would much rather have my side arm with my training and maybe get shot or maybe save 20 lives instead of having ZERO chance and being 100% dead. Just my opinion....well mine and that of our founding fathers too.

[Neil D]

With respect, these videos are hardly proof of anything since:

[snip]

I'm sorry but I would much rather have my side arm with my training and maybe get shot or maybe save 20 lives instead of having ZERO chance and being 100% dead. Just my opinion....

This video would be typical of an AVERAGE gun totting person...If you are above average, ok...I MIGHT concede that ...but the body doesn't lie when placed under sudden life threatening stress..and all six of those students (100%) said the same thing about the results of thier experience "totally unexpected. Totally different than anything I've experienced. my reactions not what I expected." That is because thier vision is narrowed, thier reaction time is slowed way down, and they are fighting thier body determine efforts to SAVE ITSELF...does that tell you anything???

And the police training experts say that they have to train to get thier muscles to respond and that if they don't train, they loose the skill....what does that say about the AVERAGE gun totting person??? Maybe he has no skill????

[Ted Oplinger]

As noted above, and as someone who has been through a CCW training, the scenarios posited are not reflective of the "average" CCW ""gun totter", nor are they reflective of the hundreds of real-life scenes played out across America every month where CCW stops crime in progress, defends life, and even cause the criminal to flee without following through on the criminal intent.

Never hear about these on ABC? That's because such don't fit the propaganda template the media feed to the public.

Blessings,

[Neil D]

I know me.....

I make no realizations of bravado, nor do I have a Chuck Norris macho ego....

I know I can go thru the classes, I know how I would react...I have studied various bodies for over 30 years and have seen kids from small gun fire, as well as adults in crisis situations...

If you want to go ahead and say that the ABC video is inaccurate, you can take that responsiblity...

I'll be cleaning up your mess.....[sigh]

[bonnie]

I know me.....

I make no realizations of bravado, nor do I have a Chuck Norris macho ego....

I know I can go thru the classes, I know how I would react...I have studied various bodies for over 30 years and have seen kids from small gun fire, as well as adults in crisis situations...

If you want to go ahead and say that the ABC video is inaccurate, you can take that responsiblity...

I'll be cleaning up your mess.....[sigh]

Those that have actually taken the training find this video laughable. Well you might be cleaning up the mess from an illegal weapon.

While you are at it,how many messy small bodies have you cleaned up from alcohol,child abuse etc.

Maybe you would react with a out of control mentality but it is inaccurate to claim everyone else would

[Neil D]

Those that have actually taken the training find this video laughable. Well you might be cleaning up the mess from an illegal weapon.

While you are at it,how many messy small bodies have you cleaned up from alcohol,child abuse etc.

Maybe you would react with a out of control mentality but it is inaccurate to claim everyone else would

Straight talk, Bonnie-

I've been there as well....try being nice to the parent of a kid who is on the vent with shaken baby syndrome, who caused the kid to be on the vent...Yeah, been there, done that...even held a kid the size of my hand in my hand...

And I am not saying EVERYONE would react like that...Just AVERAGE people, Bonnie....And I am not willing to let the AVERAGE person think he's gonna take down some shooter just because he has a gun...

And your advocating that is what is gonna happen, is gonna get someone killed...

[bonnie]

Straight talk, Bonnie-

I've been there as well....try being nice to the parent of a kid who is on the vent with shaken baby syndrome, who caused the kid to be on the vent...Yeah, been there, done that...even held a kid the size of my hand in my hand...

And I am not saying EVERYONE would react like that...Just AVERAGE people, Bonnie....And I am not willing to let the AVERAGE person think he's gonna take down some shooter just because he has a gun...

[bonnie]

I haven't checked but wonder how the numbers stack up for accidental deaths with handguns as opposed to other accidental deaths.

The old argument about vehicles for example. They are not manufactured for the same reason as guns of course but.

How many people,many children are killed every year due to irresponsible operation?Cars used in a manner not designed for.

A great many deaths are caused by alcohol,what do we do besides pass stricter laws? Only applies after the fact and sometimes able to catch them before they kill someone.How about anyone that has ever had a DUI be forever more forbidden to own or drive a vehicle. They would have to register to purchase and drink alcohol and then only in their own homes.They have already proven they are irresponsible and quite capable of killing someone.

Or maybe because it has proven to be a far greater danger I think than accidental hand gun shootings,make everyone,guilty or not register before they can purchase alcohol.Not just show proof of age,but that they are appropriately registered with the federal government.

This holds ture for most anything that in the wrong hands has the ability to injure or kill.

[Neil D]

You don't have the ability to "LET" the average person do anything.

[bonnie]

, we agree on something, Bonnie....I just clean up the stupidity of the average person....I get to deal with thier stupid decisions...the "fun" stuff, the accident, the deliberate 'pot shot'....yeah, I don't have the ABILITY TO LET THE AVERAGE PERSON DO ANYTHING.....I get to place them on vents and support thier breathing...and then, because the family wants to come in and understand how they are doing on the vent, I get to explain the vent to them, as every RT should...It usually comforts the family to know what the victim is doing and what the vent is doing for them...{/quote]

Your chances of dealing with a patient that has been wrongly or shot with a handgun pales in comparison to the destruction and death by alcohol. The numbers of injuries and death is staggering by comparison.

Quote:

If you say so, Bonnie...you speak from ignorance regarding my experience...

Actually no,I am speaking from talking with a professional in the field and showing her a printout

She did and I did.

[bonnie]

Interesting comparisons,Now isn't it only common sense to restrict the public at large because of these numbers.

Nearly 14 million Americans, one in every 13 adults, abuse alcohol or are alcoholic.

Fewer than 25% of those who need treatment get it in a given year.

Far more that should take gun training than being treated for their alcoholism.They need to register and prove they have the ability to drink sensibly

Alcohol is implicated in the deaths of some 85,000 Americans every year, making it the third leading cause of preventable death.

Far more than any accidental death by "your gun crazed" C%C permit holder

Drunk driving accounts for about 16,000 alcohol-related deaths per year, only about 25% of all alcohol-related deaths.

One-quarter of all ER admissions, one-third of all suicides, and more than half of all homicides and incidents of domestic violence are alcohol-related.

You should be seeing far more of this than the accidental shootings you claim to

Underage alcohol use is more likely to kill young people than all illegal drugs combined.

Because children will steal their parents liquor,no parent with teen age children should be allowed to have it in the house

More than 1,700 college students in the U.S. are killed each year — about 4.65 a day — as a result of alcohol-related injuries.

How many die from the "preventable" accidental shooting. Alcohol is not anymore necessary to life and work than a gun is.Once a college student is caught drinking this dangerous substance on campus he should be expelled,just as he would for the less dangerous C%C

Children who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence at some time in their lives compared with those who have their first drink at age 20 or older.

So compare that to the child that hunts or has parents with a C%C

Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders (FASD) are the leading preventable cause of birth defects in the U.S., affecting as many as 40,000 babies per year and costing upwards of $5.4 billion per year.

Wonder what the stats are compared to the sometimes lasting effects of a gun shot.Neither gun nor alcohol is a necessary staple of life

Some 75 percent of husbands or wives who abuse their spouses have been drinking prior to or at the time of the abuse.

Do 75% of those that have a Conceal % Carry abuse their spouses following the handling of one

Health risks of drinking include increased incidence of cancers of the liver, esophagus, throat, and larynx (voice box), as well as liver cirrhosis, immune system problems, brain damage, and heart problems.

To avoid health risks associated with alcohol, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) advise those who drink to do so in moderation – defined as consuming no more than one drink per day for women and up to two drinks per day for men.

Alcohol-related problems cost the U.S. economy an estimated $185 billion per year in lost productivity and earnings due to alcohol-related illness, premature death, and crime.

Again compare the stats on gun use and alcohol use,neither are vital or necessary.More harm comes from the unnecessary alcohol than it does from the "unnecessary gun"

[BelizeMissionary]

How funny Neil, you speak from ignorance on everyone elses experience. You think just because you are incapable of handling yourself in a crisis everyone else is. Mighty ignorant!!

[BelizeMissionary]

These are hardly the average. They HAVE NOT been through conceal carry and by their own admission are novice gun handlers so they would not be "totting" a firearm legally and because they are not trained and not licensed they have next to no hope of performing as if they do have CC training. A 30-60 minute class by a instructor provided by a biased news anchor does not qualify them. Heck most CC classes I've seen are multiple days and they tell you to stay in practice after you receive your license.

These little skits might as well given a 6 month old a gun and then flipped out over how horrible guns are when the baby started chewing on the barrel.

It would be like me, with my 20 year experience with computers and DC circuit repair, rounding up a bunch of hair stylists and using their inability to diagnose and repair a computer main board to prove how deadly a mouse can be. SMH

The FACTS are that in the situation in the video if someone bursts in intent to kill everyone and there is no gun then game over, EVERYONE is dead. If there is a gun in the hands of a legally carrying citizen then there is a chance everyone still dies but there is also a chance everyone lives.

Not to long ago there was someone in mall that was intent on killing as many as he could. When a citizen pulled on him he retreated and killed himself. No one died except the shooter. Who knows if that citizen saved 1 life or 50, but he died save lives.

The other FACT is that the gunman has ignored laws when he opens fire on innocent people so those with a shred of common sense know that the only thing more laws do is give the criminal more laws to ignore, more chance to get away with murder due to unarmed citizens, and harder for people who arent cowards and want to protect themselves and their family to obtain the means to do so.

It truly is a pity that common sense isn't...well...common.

[bonnie]

How funny Neil, you speak from ignorance on everyone elses experience. You think just because you are incapable of handling yourself in a crisis everyone else is. Mighty ignorant!!

Finding fault and laying blame on a mother defending her children tells you all you really need to know about ignorance in some cases.

The mother did what she could to remove herself and children from harm but somehow entrapped a poor defenseless man with a crowbar into coming after her in the crawl space.

Maybe he didn't intend to her harm her and justed wanted to apologize for allowing her to entrap him

[fccool]

The NBC piece is a straw man scenario which does not address a score of other scenarios where having a gun would be useful. Likewise, I don't really get their point... is not having a gun in these situations really better?

Just because you can't protect yourself with a gun in one situation does not mean that you can't do it in all situations.

[Neil D]

These are hardly the average. They HAVE NOT been through conceal carry and by their own admission are novice gun handlers so they would not be "totting" a firearm legally and because they are not trained and not licensed they have next to no hope of performing as if they do have CC training. A 30-60 minute class by a instructor provided by a biased news anchor does not qualify them. Heck most CC classes I've seen are multiple days and they tell you to stay in practice after you receive your license.

[Bill54]

As a concealed carry permit holder for the last 10 years.I have put more than 3000 rounds of ammo down range every year,year in year out that's what most concealed carry do!I also have a brother inlaw who was police officer for over 30 years,their yearly qualification is only 200 rounds!! Hardly mastery of the gun they use to protect you with! You must remember that law enforcement have NO DUTY to protect you!