To Keep and Bear Arms

[Tom Wetmore]

But the overwhelming majority of handgun owners do not have a concealed carry permit, nor do they practice as you do. But most of them also claim they have the gun for self-protection. Many of them carry even without either permit or training/practice. The safety factor you presume about yourself is greatly diminished by those facts.

How about requiring all handgun owners to meet the same minimum safety and proficiency requirements as concealed carry permit holders? If we are serious about the Second Amendment, that is the the "well regulated" part of being a militia and fundamental to the "keep and bear" part of having guns, just as much as being able to own a gun is guaranteed.

[phkrause]

I have a number of friends who have permits and I can count on my fingers the number of times they've been to the range. and the fun part about the target at the range? It doesn't shoot back. And I agree police officers don't protect you, but that is there job. And the percentage of them that actually use there weapon or fire it is very low. Here is an interesting article about how accurate the police are with there weapon: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5...-shot-accuracy/

[bonnie]

But the overwhelming majority of handgun owners do not have a concealed carry permit, nor do they practice as you do. But most of them also claim they have the gun for self-protection. Many of them carry even without either permit or training/practice. The safety factor you presume about yourself is greatly diminished by those facts.

How about requiring all handgun owners to meet the same minimum safety and proficiency requirements as concealed carry permit holders? If we are serious about the Second Amendment, that is the the "well regulated" part of being a militia and fundamental to the "keep and bear" part of having guns, just as much as being able to own a gun is guaranteed.

Why don't we treat those responsible for the high homicide rate as we do those law abiding gun owning individuals .

Almost without exception those responsible for mass murders are mentally deficient,having been or are having on going treatment. Have a data base for all those with mental illness that have received professional help.Have their families blacklisted from owning a firearm.Post this information in the media as was recently done to law abiding Conceal%Carry gun owners.This m,ay have stopped the innocent children from dying far quicker than vilifying,harassing and penalizing law abiding people.

Gangs are responsible for a very high number of illegal firearms and homicides. Separate the gang members by ethnic groups,listing their numbers of homicides and the danger they present to society.Give the name of their parents that have released these little thugs on society.

List the members of white gang members,the number of yearly injury and death with their illegal firearms.

List the members of black gangs by name and a map to their home as well. Let us know the parents involved in raising these little thugs.Give pictures of the dead that these gang members kill,especially those killed by drive by.Those often are the innocent child.

Then make a concentrated effort in locating the source of the

providers of these illegal weapons and give them life in prison.Preferably solitary confinement for life,no parole.

The hysterical mob finds it far easier to go after law abiding citizens than to go after the real culprits

[phkrause]

Here's an interesting study:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/nyregi...ed=all&_r=0

and an interesting statement:

But shootings take a toll, on the public trust and on the officers themselves. As the 2011 discharge report says, “One of the most abrupt, dynamic and potentially traumatic incidents that can happen in a police officer’s career is the line-of-duty discharge of his or her firearm.”

Now that is about police officers that not only have a permit to carry or license to carry a weapon, every single day that they are on duty. And they know exactly what there job requires and the dangers of there jobs, yet we expect or think that us citizens who just have a weapon for the sake of protecting ourselves from criminals think we can do better? Not saying that it can't be done, or that I'm against anyone having a weapon, because I've got plenty of friends that do and you know what, I wouldn't want to be there when they get confronted and really have to use that weapon.

[olger]

Killings are great for sales because every single one proves that criminals are out there and going to break the law no matter how many laws there are so you might consider protecting yourself. It is also great for sales because every time there is a Newtown politicians all over the place break out in song and dance because they feel they have justification to take peoples 2nd amendment rights and that makes people run to buy more guns. Just look at what is happening now. Police departments are even reporting they cant keep stocked up on ammo because sales are in the stratosphere.

Just a thought, but I'm pretty sure it was illegal for the newtown nut to steal his moms guns, illegal to murder her, illegal to steal the car, illegal to force his way into the school, and illegal to murder kids. Yet he didn't pay any attention to these laws, nor did Timothy Mcvay, or the Columbine shooter, or the Colorado shooter.

Stealing rights and making 500 new laws is not the answer. Improvement on mental health diagnosis and treatment is the answer. Doing something with hollywood and violent video games is the answer. Having two parent homes is the answer. Taking an interest in your kids and teaching them values is the answer. Teaching EVERYONE the history of this great country and why the constitution and the amendments were established is the answer. And of course, a firm belief and following of christ is the answer.

You're right, and people with a determined liberal penchant won't be able to acknowledge it.

g

[olger]

As noted above, and as someone who has been through a CCW training, the scenarios posited are not reflective of the "average" CCW ""gun totter", nor are they reflective of the hundreds of real-life scenes played out across America every month where CCW stops crime in progress, defends life, and even cause the criminal to flee without following through on the criminal intent.

Never hear about these on ABC? That's because such don't fit the propaganda template the media feed to the public.

Blessings,

In-deed.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: BelizeMissionary

Killings are great for sales because every single one proves that criminals are out there and going to break the law no matter how many laws there are so you might consider protecting yourself. It is also great for sales because every time there is a Newtown politicians all over the place break out in song and dance because they feel they have justification to take peoples 2nd amendment rights and that makes people run to buy more guns. Just look at what is happening now. Police departments are even reporting they cant keep stocked up on ammo because sales are in the stratosphere.

Just a thought, but I'm pretty sure it was illegal for the newtown nut to steal his moms guns, illegal to murder her, illegal to steal the car, illegal to force his way into the school, and illegal to murder kids. Yet he didn't pay any attention to these laws, nor did Timothy Mcvay, or the Columbine shooter, or the Colorado shooter.

Stealing rights and making 500 new laws is not the answer. Improvement on mental health diagnosis and treatment is the answer. Doing something with hollywood and violent video games is the answer. Having two parent homes is the answer. Taking an interest in your kids and teaching them values is the answer. Teaching EVERYONE the history of this great country and why the constitution and the amendments were established is the answer. And of course, a firm belief and following of christ is the answer.

You're right, and people with a determined liberal penchant won't be able to acknowledge it.

g

So let me ask? Do we consider the "he didn't pay any attention to these laws, nor did Timothy Mcvay, or the Columbine shooter, or the Colorado shooter." to be conservative or liberal?

[bonnie]

So let me ask? Do we consider the "he didn't pay any attention to these laws, nor did Timothy Mcvay, or the Columbine shooter, or the Colorado shooter." to be conservative or liberal?

Maybe far more simple. They simply had a agenda and didn't care about the laws.

[Tom Wetmore]

What I hear those wanting to protect their right to own a gun at all costs is that since, the criminals will disregard laws, the laws are useless. The alternative to solve the problem - get rid of the laws since criminals don't obey them anyway.

And the farmer said, "I solved the problem of my cow that kept jumping the fence and getting into the neighbor's cornfield. I took down all the fences."

[bonnie]

What I hear those wanting to protect their right to own a gun at all costs is that since, the criminals will disregard laws, the laws are useless. The alternative to solve the problem - get rid of the laws since criminals don't obey them anyway.

This is not a very honest statement regarding what has been said.

Altho this is what you would like to see....

And the farmer said, "I solved the problem of my cow that kept jumping the fence and getting into the neighbor's cornfield. I took down all the fences."

The laws we have should be utilized a lot more strongly rather than solving the problem by going after law abiding gun owners.You want the reverse.More fences to keep the "law abiding" in. But as any one that has ever lived on a farm can tell you,erecting more fences rarely stops a fence jumper. A determined cow will get out and the peaceful cows will leave the fence alone

The fact remains any criminal does not obey the existing laws.Law abiding people do. So your solution is to go after everyone that obeys the law thinking somehow that is going to make the criminal realize he shouldn't

[Tom Wetmore]

Having grown up on a farm where we raised a breed of notoriously adaptive escapist cows, I can assure you that a fence can indeed be built to keep them in. It has to be strong, high enough and well maintained. The farmer has to repair it when it is broken or improve it when it doesn't work as intended.

I think a fair illustration using those cows is their use of the peaceful non-escapee cows to help them. When a weak point in the barbed wire fence was discovered, they would crowd a young heifer against it until broke down, enabling all to escape the confines of the pasture.

But it seems the argument put forward by the NRA and the extremists is to solve the problem of the bad cows is to lower the height of the fence, get rid of that nasty barbed wire and electric fence and go free-range.

[bonnie]

Having grown up on a farm where we raised a breed of notoriously adaptive escapist cows, I can assure you that a fence can indeed be built to keep them in. It has to be strong, high enough and well maintained. The farmer has to repair it when it is broken or improve it when it doesn't work as intended.

[debbym]

i think drastic consequences for breaking the law can serve to inhibit bad behavior, but the doer must be aware of the law and what is coming.

most law breakers just are not aware of the consequences, or do not care. They usually are not functioning well.

i think the three strikes and your out law did change a lot of bad behavior. if you had two violent felonies and committed any other felony you were in for 25 to life.

[bonnie]

i think drastic consequences for breaking the law can serve to inhibit bad behavior, but the doer must be aware of the law and what is coming.

most law breakers just are not aware of the consequences, or do not care. They usually are not functioning well.

i think the three strikes and your out law did change a lot of bad behavior. if you had two violent felonies and committed any other felony you were in for 25 to life.

I would think it the rare gang member that does not know obtaining firearms illegal is a crime.They simply don't care.

Those caught with an illegal weapon should have a very stiff sentence instead of a finger slap and making allowances for his poverty,upbringing or anything else.

Many people were against the three strikes and you are out.I am all for it.The media played up that poor misguided soul that did just a little felony and was punished severely.To bad,they were warned and knew the consequences of even a "little felony"

The hysteria over punishing law abiding citizens should be at least as much directed at the proven culprits of the homicide rate. Don't want to do that tho as that would certainly be discrimination

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point, Bonnie. (OK, get back up on your chair... ) Yes, some cows need to be separated from the herd, for their own good and for the good of the rest. That has to be a part of the overall solution.

Let's also consider another type of fence jumper, horses. They can be trained to stay inside the fence a bit better than cows. And training is important too. Keeping horses and cows in the pasture is for their own safety and well being, even if they may not realize it. For example, grain is and should be a part of their diet. But if allowed unlimited access, a horse will be a glutton and eat themselves to death. So you have to control the quantity of grain they can have. And that is also a part of it.

[bonnie]

Good point, Bonnie. (OK, get back up on your chair... ) Yes, some cows need to be separated from the herd, for their own good and for the good of the rest. That has to be a part of the overall solution.

[OzarkWoman]

I think it would be nice to control our President and the idiot Congress.

[olger]

What I hear those wanting to protect their right to own a gun at all costs is that since, the criminals will disregard laws, the laws are useless. The alternative to solve the problem - get rid of the laws since criminals don't obey them anyway.

And the farmer said, "I solved the problem of my cow that kept jumping the fence and getting into the neighbor's cornfield. I took down all the fences."

This graphic may help illustrate the first part of your scenario.

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: bonnie Many people were against the three strikes and you are out.I am all for it.

I agree, I believe it did serve the peace.