Guns Don't Kill People — Our Sons Do

[Neil D]

You haven't said yet where 40% of the friends obtained theirs.

I seriously doubt that those wanting to commit mass murder will be deterred by registration.Most mass murderers are on a "mission" ,one which they know almost always leaves them dead.

does it matter???

Let's take this loophole out, and make it difficult for criminals, crazys, semi-crazys to get guns...Less guns for strange people, less chance of those to go ballastic.....You don't want crazys to shoot up little kids do you? Well, make it more difficult for them to get....

[bonnie]

does it matter???

Let's take this loophole out, and make it difficult for criminals, crazys, semi-crazys to get guns...Less guns for strange people, less chance of those to go ballastic.....You don't want crazys to shoot up little kids do you? Well, make it more difficult for them to get....

Criminals are not stopped by closing a loop hole. Adam Lanza had a perfectly legal weapon.Registered and the mother was faithful in gun training. Why was she so foolish as to have weapons around her mentally unstable son? No one can answer that now.Demanding a background check is not foolish Most people can pass one until they have committed a crime and show up during a check.

The crazies that are going to shoot up little kids are still going to be crazy and shoot up little kids.

We have to have a license to purchase a vehicle,that doesn't do anything to force abiding by the law until after the fact. It does not prevent private sales of a product that is dangerous in the wrong hands. I have sold several when ready to purchase a new vehicle.I knew nothing about the people coming to the door,other than what their identification told me. I did not go with them to the DMV to register in their name.No car dealer has gone with me to register a new purchase.

If I purchase with cash,all I need is my drivers license.The law states I need insurance.Big deal if I don't till caught.

I don't have to show proof of insurance to buy my tabs.Haven't had to for at least 3-4 years now.

Now force me if you can to abide by the traffic laws and the laws of ownership.Then if you can enforce the law against car theft.The number of a cars stolen per year is staggering.Many laws to protect children and adults as well.

At times you can enforce those laws before someone is seriously injured or dies.To many times the law is only effective if and when the guilty is caught

[Gail]

Getting back to the "son" part of the topic-

I reviewed a sample book about orphans a couple years ago. It was written by a Christian and is distributed through a site for artists.

The book is FANTASTIC at bringing to light the serious problem our world has because of fatherlessness.

The author researched and wrote it herself because she found there was a famine of material out there on the subject. She tried within mainstream Christianity, and like debjm noted above Christians are admonished to care for widows and orphans, there, too, is lacking information of why or how.

I advertised the book to the churches but received no interest except for the pastor who still has my comp copy.

In the years we spent homeschooling I did a lot of encouraging mothers that their job, of training souls, was of eternal value. Perhaps now it is time to uplift the role of fatherhood.

[phkrause]

You haven't said yet where 40% of the friends obtained theirs.

He doesn't need to Bonnie, he got that number from OWs post above.

[bonnie]

He doesn't need to Bonnie, he got that number from OWs post above.

Really? Were they legally purchased by these friends? Did the 40% or many of them have them illegally to begin with? What law will induce them to register them if they are illegal to begin with? Were they loaned to commit crimes? I am assuming those that live in the inner cities don't borrow guns from friends to hunt 4 legged animals.

If these are legally purchased and registered,please explain the law you want to see passed that will stop the 40% from borrowing out their guns to irresponsible nut jobs.

How many people purchase,register guns to commit homicides?How many homicides are committed by gangs and others that aren't to worried about registering a gun to commit their crimes?

If you remove those numbers from the homicide total there is a whole different picture.

I have yet to see any anti-gun advocate explain how they intend to induce a criminal or gang member to obtain a gun legally and register it.

Can you explain if easy access is the cause,why easy access does not cause a rising homicide rate in places where they require homeowners have a gun in the home? The last town I checked had a surprisingly low crime rate of any kind.I seriously doubt if they lack a criminal element in these towns.

Why is it in area's where hunting and guns is almost a staple of everyday life,several guns in the home,crime again is low,Especially the homicide rate.These guns are not under lock and key but right out in the open.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

You haven't said yet where 40% of the friends obtained theirs.

I seriously doubt that those wanting to commit mass murder will be deterred by registration.Most mass murderers are on a "mission" ,one which they know almost always leaves them dead.

does it matter???

Let's take this loophole out, and make it difficult for criminals, crazys, semi-crazys to get guns...Less guns for strange people, less chance of those to go ballastic.....You don't want crazys to shoot up little kids do you? Well, make it more difficult for them to get....

Does it matter, Neil???

It obviously doesn't with you.

You recite the typical argument in the attempt to hold the higher ground, but you've already ceded it by conflating the illegal arms issue (to which Bonnie was speaking) with the "crazies" and "semi-crazies", then placing the burdens upon...not the "crazies" or the criminal, but rather those strange law-abiding types. This will reduce the problem by, what, 0%???

That you dispense with a perfectly good reference work, and concentrate a very minor portion of the problem? I think I see now why every place run by liberal "intellect" is essentially a third world ash heap - don't really impact any problem meaningfully, just concentrate on a tiny portion for effect, and leave the rest intact for demagoguery.

Why not try to propose something rather intelligent to seek a solution...like investigating and reducing the illegal arms trafficking, which would have a greater impact upon 40%+ of those related crimes? Since nearly 40% said they got their weapon from a "friend" or a "family member", did you stop to think such "friends" and "family" might have also obtained them illegally? Did you consider that it would be likely that such "friends" and "family" go unidentified, and uninvestigated, because they did obtain them illegally? It would appear placing resources upon these points - holding criminal trafficking and their accomplices - would greatly reduce the problem.

I haven't seen a liberal OR establishment Repub (AKA, the squishy "moderate" RINO) make such proposals. Demogoguing is the staple of the day.

Likewise, I abhor the liberals' attempt to label people into categories. "Crazies"? Who defines that? Look to current events in New Hampshire and see where your label will eventually go.

Empowering the law-abiding always works, every time it is truly and earnestly tried.

Blessings,

[bonnie]

I don't get the reasoning I confess. Does anyone think if we say please nicely enough the criminals are going to comply?

If someone is fully prepared and expects to die following the

mass murder,what in the world would he care about a silly law that says he can't murder with a illegal weapon?

Most that purchase guns the legal way,register them and take gun training are not the ones murdering 20 children.

Sometimes I think it makes people feel all righteous,AHHH,now we are really going to do something,We will pass a new law on top of all the previous laws.That will fix it.

If you don't get to the root of the problem all you are doing is trying to stop a hemorrhage with a bandaid.

It isn't the law abiding that has a gun permit that is out roaming the streets hoping and praying for a chance to play Shoot Out At The Okay Corral"

[Ted Oplinger]

No, Bonnie, I am questioning Neil's reasoning on the issue - rather forcefully.

Based on your reference, it is a much more reasonable thing to impact the illegal arms flow rather than concentrate on gun shows - where the flow and sale of illegal arms is miniscule.

As to the mass murder mindset...no law is going to prevent these atrocities. Of the mass murders and riots over the last 20 years, only one took place in a place where gun laws are favorable to the law-abiding citizen. In that crime, guns didn't cause the death and injury of hundreds...it was a rental truck filled with fertilizer and diesel fuel. All the others were in blue state...or blue city...areas, where there are already a significant number of laws and hindrances to gun ownership.

In the latest, the young man shot is mother first, then stole the other firearms from her keeping to continue his work. The mother legally obtained them. He obtained illegally them through crime. What law on the books currently prevented him from starting this massacre? Even if there was a law on the books making it illegal for the mentally ill to purchase/possess firearms, would that have stopped the massacre?

Absolutely not! Everything he did was already illegal by law!!! One more law would not have changed the scenario a single bit.

And if guns were totally illegal to own (like for the Chinese citizenry), the young boy would have used something else (like the Chinese man using a knife to slaughter 22 kids at an elementary school there).

These are the fallacies Neil proceeds from in his argument.

Blessings,

[lazarus]

And if guns were totally illegal to own (like for the Chinese citizenry), the young boy would have used something else (like the Chinese man using a knife to slaughter 22 kids at an elementary school there).

The point is that he didn't slaughter them. He injured them. If it was America he would have KILLED ALL 22 of them. Oh, wait, in fact it would have been 26. Perfect illustration.

[OzarkWoman]

Ummm, so let me get this straight.

Rather than address mental health issues, SSRI side-effects issues, feral children issues or gang issues... we are instead going to compel everyone who does not have mental health issues, is not taking SSRI's, is not a feral child or is not a gang banger... them we're going to harass with pointless and redundant laws, regulations, red tape and expenses?

By golly! What a good idea! I think it'll work!

It kind of reminds me of those PETA folks who like to throw blood on women who are wearing fur coats. PETA never seems to get around to throwing blood on bikers wearing leather.

I wonder why that is?

[Neil D]

No, Bonnie, I am questioning Neil's reasoning on the issue - rather forcefully.

[BelizeMissionary]

Would be interested in seeing sources for all those claims. Would be helpful.

[Bravus]

Illustrating the point I made earlier:

The same happens on many things: the USA is a dramatic outlier.

It's not the games, it's not the guns, it's not the broken homes - stats on all those things are similar in most developed countries.

There is some illness deep in the heart of America, and addressing these mass shootings will take a serious attempt at addressing that illness.

[Bravus]

PS There is *not* more crime in Australia since the gun buyback in the 90s. That's a furphy.

[phkrause]

GP, here's an interesting bit about NYC and how they dealt with Guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City

[aldona]

Quote:

Utopia

Australia gang war rages over drugs, money and power

June 30, 2009|By Anna Coren CNN

Police investigate the scene where Des Tuppence Moran was killed in Melbourne in June 2009.

Australia's reputation as the happy-go-lucky country was turned on its head in the late 1990s as the usually safe streets of the Victorian capital were transformed into a gangland war zone.

Melbourne's "underbelly" of organized crime suddenly became public. Men hungry for easy money, power and control of the state's lucrative illegal amphetamines trade were prepared to do whatever it took to be the boss of the underworld.

Violence erupted between two families -- the Morans and the Williams. Police say both had trafficked drugs in Melbourne for years and for a while had been associates. But as public demand for amphetamines grew, the rivalry increased with both camps desperate to secure the market.

On one side was the Moran family -- brothers Jason and Mark, father Lewis and matriarch Judy Moran. The brothers were notorious for their short tempers and relied on violence to achieve what they wanted.

On the other was Carl Williams and his crew. He began as a small-time drug dealer but would become Australia's most notorious serial killer. His lieutenant was Andrew "Benji" Veniamin -- a tattooed former kick boxer who would become Williams' main hit man -- but eventually became a victim of the gang wars himself.

The feud began on October 13, 1999, on Carl Williams' 29th birthday. The Moran brothers accused Williams of undercutting them, by selling cheap pills on the street. They allegedly shot Williams in the stomach.

But this didn't frighten him. Instead, Williams planned his revenge, sparking a public underworld war that would leave police, the legal system and politicians struggling to cope. Eight months later, Mark Moran was gunned down outside his home while he put out the rubbish. Then in 2003, in the most horrific of all the gangland murders, Jason Moran and his associate Pasquale Barboro were gunned down in the front seats of a van in the car park at a children's football game. Five children were sitting in the back seats. Witnesses described the shooting as disgusting and callous.

At Jason's funeral, his mother made a graveside threat. Leaning over the coffin, Judy Moran said "all will be dealt with my darling."

But it didn't end there. A year later, Judy's husband was murdered. Crime patriarch Lewis Moran, who was facing drug charges, was shot dead while drinking at his local pub.

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Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You know that saying, which gun enthusiasts are so fond of, that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"?

Well, that is who the Moran/Williams/Veniamin etc families are. They are outlaws - the "underworld" of Melbourne. They were outlaws before our tightening of gun laws, and they remain outlaws.

Most of them are now either in prison, or dead. Those members of the underworld who remain, continue to shoot each other. They do not shoot random bystanders. They do not go into schools and massacre children. The rest of us read about their exploits in the newspapers, shrug our shoulders, and feel no need to arm ourselves in response, because the underworld has nothing to do with us.

The rest of society, however, overwhelmingly do not possess guns (with exceptions, of course, for sporting shooters and those in country areas who work with farm livestock and wild animals.) That angry driver who cut you off in traffic - The weirdo who annoys commuters on the train - The loner student who does not fit in and gets bullied - The disgruntled former employee who "snaps" and has a brain meltdown - these and many others will not shoot us, because 99.9% of the time they do not have a gun. And the rest of us want the situation to stay this way as long as possible, so we do not all rush out and purchase guns of which we have no need.

Since the school shooting incident in the US recently, the No. 1 comment I have heard repeatedly from my fellow Australians (form all parts of the political spectrum), has been something like:

"I am SO glad that (former prime minister) John Howard got rid of high powered guns. I didn't agree with him at the time, but he was right. I never want this place to become like America."

America is a great nation - I have travelled there and there are many things about the country that are admirable, but there is definitely something going on when it comes to gun violence, and I don't know what the root cause is or what the answer(s) will be. Our US friends will have to figure that out for themselves. But the proposed solutions of "more guns, even more guns and yet more guns" somehow do not sit right.

AJ

[Neil D]

Aldona,

It is so nice to hear someone refute the "if we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.".....

That saying is getting around so much, that people here think it is true....

Nice to know that your outlaws are shooting at each other.....

I like the attitude of one individual I knew...If someone robbed me, God must have felt that they needed it more than me....I'm just glad that no one gets hurt....

[BelizeMissionary]

Funny how all my Aussie friends and countless Aussies and Russians are screaming bloody murder for Americans to fight gun control because of the big failure it has been in those countries. I'm not saying anything about Australia because all i know is the people I know and not one person has said the confiscation was a good thing. ALL have told me crime is worse and that it was the biggest mistake they made.

[Bravus]

Then all the Aussies you have spoken to are speaking out of their prejudices and assumptions, not the facts. Based on the actual, recorded crime statistics, all violent crimes have decreased since the gun buyback and there have been *no* mass shootings.

Those are the facts. Worth listening to.

[OzarkWoman]

And we all know how all of us can trust the statistics from all of our governments. (sarcasm off)

[bonnie]

PS There is *not* more crime in Australia since the gun buyback in the 90s. That's a furphy.

Something seems to be going on

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-25/police-chief-laments-violent-crime-rise/4333156

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sy...v-1226443402160

[bonnie]

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d8-Australia-experiencing-more-violent-crime-despite-gun-ban

Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.

During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.

Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.

For text:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-Gun-Rights-Examiner

[bonnie]

Child crime on the rise, new figures show

Peter Mickelburough, Mark Buttler

From: Herald Sun

May 10, 2010 12:00AM

KIDDY criminals in Victoria are getting younger and more violent - and there are more of them.

The number of alleged offenders aged 14 or younger has risen 27 per cent in three years, with a 30 per cent jump in violent crimes.

"We're creating the Carl Williamses of tomorrow," said veteran youth worker Les Twentyman.

"Families are becoming more dysfunctional and violent and kids are becoming desensitised to violence because it's all around them - in the family, on the internet, the TV, video games and movies."

Mr Twentyman said organised crime gangs, including outlaw bikies, actively recruited juveniles to help run drugs and break into homes because they were more likely to escape charges.

In 2008-09 police dealt with 4867 alleged offenders aged 14 or younger - 56 were aged nine or under.

They were accused of 11,093 crimes - 1635 of them violent, including a murder, 219 sex attacks, 237 robberies and 1171 assaults.

And more than one in five crimes are now committed by boys and girls aged 17 or younger, including every second robbery, one in every three home burglaries and one in six assaults.

One in every 16 Victorian boys aged 15 to 19 were arrested, charged or formally cautioned by police in the past year.

The shock findings are the tip of a teen crime wave that has seen the number of juveniles sentenced to detention jump by more than a third in three years.

More than 14,000 school-aged children were arrested, charged or cautioned by police for 36,000 separate crimes in 2008-09.

Melbourne University Associate Prof Sheryl Hemphill said her research found schools contributed to the problem, with suspensions identified as a risk factor for child antisocial behaviour.

"Suspension rates are higher in more disadvantaged communities, even where the level of antisocial behaviour is similar in the students," Assoc Prof Hemphill said.

"Encouraging schools as much as possible to keep students in school is one thing that may help reduce crime in the community.

"We really need to sit down and talk about the options and ways that we can assist schools to keep these young people connected to school without impacting on the learning or safety of the other members of the school communities."

Boys aged 15-19 are now the state's largest offender group, with 11,668 of the 188,430 in the state accused of 34,000 crimes in 2008-09.

But the biggest and most worrying increase in kiddy crime has been among the pre-teens and early teens.

Deakin University psychologist John Toumbourou pointed to higher rates of young people who neither work nor study in Melbourne's growing outer fringe as a contributing factor.

"My suspicion is that the rise in child crime may be at least partly related to the high rates of educational disparities emerging across Australian communities," he said.

Sen-Sgt Tim Hardiman, of the police youth advisory unit, said re-offence rates had been highlighted as a major issue in a police child and youth strategy launched last year.

He said programs used to curb youth crime here and abroad were now being reviewed under the strategy, with recommended changes due later in the year.

[OzarkWoman]

Then all the Aussies you have spoken to are speaking out of their prejudices and assumptions, not the facts. Based on the actual, recorded crime statistics, all violent crimes have decreased since the gun buyback and there have been *no* mass shootings.

Those are the facts. Worth listening to.

You mean like the anti-gun people speak and act out of their prejudices and ASSumptions and not the actual facts?

[phkrause]

You mean like the anti-gun people speak and act out of their prejudices and ASSumptions and not the actual facts?

It goes both ways doesn't it??